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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 17, 2009, at 21:59:32
Hi Dr. Bob and administrators,
Is it possible to have two psychology boards? One for people in psychodynamic therapy and one for people in other types of therapy? I find that the experiences on the psychology board are the reverse of real-world psychology: many people who post there are in psychoanalysis, as opposed to the main way(s) therapy is practiced in the US, which is usually decidedly not psychoanalysis. In saying this, I am not trying to offend anyone in psychoanalysis (I feel grrrrrr angry about some of the practices of psychoanlaysts, and the way they bandy about words like "psychosis", when they mean something other than most psychologists and psychiatrists mean by it, but I absolutely want the best people who choose to go into analysis, and I do hope it works out for them).
I guess what I am saying is that I want a place to share and talk about therapy and psychology, but I feel completely at odds with what people talk about when they talk about their therapy experiences.
Thanks,
Amelia
Posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2009, at 12:22:31
In reply to Two psychology boards? Or something?, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 17, 2009, at 21:59:32
A board for short term theraphy is that what you're meaning? Phillipa
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 12:37:13
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something? » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2009, at 12:22:31
No, not short term. Most people I know/talk to/have met as a patient and as a would-be therapist are in CBT, DBT, or some form of cognitive-behavioral therapy. Or, at least, are treated with an eclectic approach--a little bit of maybe existential modalities, a little bit of CBT, some mindfulness, a sprinkling of what they deem useful from psychoanalysis or psychodynamics (a surface interpretation of transference). But the board right now for psychology is heavily populated by people in some form of psychodynamic therapy, or by people invested in it as a useful approach.
So I was thinking a board called "Psychodynamic" (which fits right in with the pyschobabble moniker, and one for cognitive-behavioral/DBT, understanding that that can mean eclecticism too (as could psychodynamic--eclecticism is a flexible thing).
> A board for short term theraphy is that what you're meaning? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 13:33:08
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something? » Phillipa, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 12:37:13
> No, not short term. Most people I know/talk to/have met as a patient and as a would-be therapist are in CBT, DBT, or some form of cognitive-behavioral therapy. Or, at least, are treated with an eclectic approach--a little bit of maybe existential modalities, a little bit of CBT, some mindfulness, a sprinkling of what they deem useful from psychoanalysis or psychodynamics (a surface interpretation of transference). But the board right now for psychology is heavily populated by people in some form of psychodynamic therapy, or by people invested in it as a useful approach.
>
> So I was thinking a board called "Psychodynamic" (which fits right in with the pyschobabble moniker, and one for cognitive-behavioral/DBT, understanding that that can mean eclecticism too (as could psychodynamic--eclecticism is a flexible thing).I don't really hang out on the Psychology board that much. I hadn't realized that the majority of treatment protocols being used by people there were psychodynamic. I just thought that they were different varieties of interpersonal therapy (IPT). This is a bit of a revelation to me.
- Scott
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 15:14:17
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something? » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 13:33:08
Thanks for your comment, Scott.
Of course, I have to admit that I am relatively new here, but every time I have been to the psychology board, I have noticed comments about therapists that reflect a psychodynamic approach is partly or entirely going on. IPT does port a lot from psychodynamic theory into its approach and practice. Both "purer" forms of psychodynamic theory and IPT deal with discussing the past (I'm being so simplistic here, forgive me) in order to uncover and work through patterns, so that new patterns can emerge. I like, and wish to discuss, CBT and DBT because it focuses on the here and now, and what a person can do to tolerate emotions, restructure thoughts so that they aren't so negative and etc., and focus on the present and future. As someone with PTSD, I have never found psychodynamic approaches, or IPT, to help one bit with coping in the here and now. I hear a lot of comments (I'm not saying here necessarily) from people in "talk therapy" that say to me "wow, this person is going through crises induced in therapy and unresolved in therapy--and I can see fallacies in thinking that are continuing her or his pain--I wish that person would try out CBT or DBT."
There are squishier boundaries in "talk therapy" between therapist and client, in the name of "transference." I think that can be quite damaging to fragile persons.
Ahhhh, sorry to rant, Scott.
Thanks for your comment.
> > No, not short term. Most people I know/talk to/have met as a patient and as a would-be therapist are in CBT, DBT, or some form of cognitive-behavioral therapy. Or, at least, are treated with an eclectic approach--a little bit of maybe existential modalities, a little bit of CBT, some mindfulness, a sprinkling of what they deem useful from psychoanalysis or psychodynamics (a surface interpretation of transference). But the board right now for psychology is heavily populated by people in some form of psychodynamic therapy, or by people invested in it as a useful approach.
> >
> > So I was thinking a board called "Psychodynamic" (which fits right in with the pyschobabble moniker, and one for cognitive-behavioral/DBT, understanding that that can mean eclecticism too (as could psychodynamic--eclecticism is a flexible thing).
>
> I don't really hang out on the Psychology board that much. I hadn't realized that the majority of treatment protocols being used by people there were psychodynamic. I just thought that they were different varieties of interpersonal therapy (IPT). This is a bit of a revelation to me.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2009, at 21:28:44
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something? » Phillipa, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 12:37:13
Amelia if I'm hearing you right I think the self esteem board was developed for CBT type discussions. No one seems to frequent it anymore. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on June 19, 2009, at 0:14:09
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something? » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2009, at 21:28:44
Maybe part of the problem is where you draw the line on CBT vs not CBT. Is 'mentalization based therapy' best viewed of as an extension of DBT which is best viewed as an extension of CBT or is mentalization based therapy best viewed of as an extension of psychoanalysis via psychodynamics?
I guess the existence of funny borderline cases doesn't undermine the distinction...
Maybe a 'problem focused' therapy board would be helpful for some, yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 19, 2009, at 0:17:14
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something?, posted by alexandra_k on June 19, 2009, at 0:14:09
I used to post at this board where the majority on the psychotherapy board were involved in 'problem focused' CBT style therapy. Overtime it became somewhat 'over-run' with psychodynamically oriented therapy. A number of people who used to post there frequently stated that they didn't feel so comfortable posting there anymore. I know that when I wasn't working with a psychodynamically oriented therapist I found it just too hard to read endless threads about transference and attachment etc etc etc. I do think that there could be a benefit to another board, yeah. Trouble is that posting is down such that there has been talk of closing boards. Not sure how much admin is thinking about opening new ones...
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2009, at 0:44:26
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something?, posted by alexandra_k on June 19, 2009, at 0:17:14
I've long been in favor of it. Not by type of therapy perhaps, because that *is* hard to sort out. But by topic and subject matter. One board for therapy relationships, issues with therapists, looking for therapists, stuff like that. And another board to talk about challenging thoughts or strategies for self soothing, or other more practical aspects of therapy.
In my experience there are not that many theoretically pure therapies any more. My therapist is primarily CBT, but he recognized that a more interpersonal approach would work better with me, even though the basic concepts of CBT are incorporated one way or another. He also incorporates eastern philosophy and mindfulness in a way that reminds me of DBT. Just not as directly and homework driven. More through conversations and a gradual shift in my way of viewing the world.
So although my therapy is very interpersonal in nature, I can see the benefit of having a more practically oriented board.
No matter what, I think Dr. Bob would call for respect for differences of opinion regarding how worthwhile different types of therapy may be.
Posted by Tabitha on June 19, 2009, at 1:28:14
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something?, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2009, at 0:44:26
> One board for therapy relationships, issues with therapists, looking for therapists, stuff like that.
How about
1) discussion of types of therapy & finding a therapist
2) discussion of your own ongoing work in therapy
3) discussion of problems with therapists (transference not getting resolved, getting over a termination, ethical transgressions, etc)
Seems like 80 percent of the board is #3, so maybe the others would never take off.
Posted by rskontos on June 19, 2009, at 2:01:28
In reply to Two psychology boards? Or something?, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 17, 2009, at 21:59:32
Ameilia,
I want to first start off that I know you mean well. But I think you are generalizing about pschoanalysis as well. I have such a therapist and we don't spend much time discussing transference. After 2 years of therapy I don't have transference going on. I respect him, I know he respect me, I am beginning to trust him but not completely.
I went to him in crisis. Of the sort that I thought my only option was hospitalization. He helped me get through that.
I know what you are talking about but sometimes it is the person's perception we are hearing about not the therapists intentions per se.
I know you were not trying to offend but I will say I am trying nicely to say I was offended. I am offended when people generalize about any particular thing. LIke being against one type of therapy over another.
I know that mine mainly use psycho but he is open to the use of main different forms. He was trained at the country leading's psychiatry schools as well as being a ER doctor for quite a well prior to training for psychiatry. He also is a professor emertius at a medical school. So he is well trained and has years of experience. Nor is he closed minded to treatment options.
I feel that when we hear what is going on here we must realize we are hearing the one side to what is going on and not let it get to us to the point that we think we need to get so angry that the practices of doctors out there is so bad. Yes there are docs that could us more training but there are many such professional in many field that could be said of.
My p-doc has never said psychosis once about me. My doc is a psychiatrist that practices pschoanalysis but uses other methods. He is one heck of a doc. I marvel he puts up with me. And he does it all gratis.
Again, i am not trying to offend you, I just want to offer a difference of opinion respectfully.
rsk
Posted by SLS on June 19, 2009, at 5:16:40
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something?, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2009, at 0:44:26
> I've long been in favor of it. Not by type of therapy perhaps, because that *is* hard to sort out
As a sort of "newbie" on the Psychology board, and having had a few different therapists of my own, I would say that therapist are becoming more eclectic in their approaches, so I can see how it would be hard to try to draw distinct lines in an attempt to separate "schools" of psychotherapeutic theory. For a depressed person, there is something convenient about one-stop shopping. (I'm a depressed person).
- Scott
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 12:12:25
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Or something?, posted by Tabitha on June 19, 2009, at 1:28:14
These are all great suggestions, great feedback. (Alexandra, thank you for the validation.) And I am not offended by any criticism. Please understand that I did not mean to offend; what I said came from a place of wanting to be able to have a place to share with like-minded people. I am hearing from a few responses on the psychology board that others like or want to talk about solutions-focused therapy.
Hmmm. Lots to think about.
Of course, I agree that the lines are squishy; when I go to my DBT individual therapist, by necessity we end up "talking" about stuff, but we do so in service of understanding what my triggers are. We always come back to what I can do to cope. What skills. DBT has an elaborate framework, with lots of acronyms (DEAR MAN, FAST, GIVE, PLS, ACCEPTS), etc. Just last night, I was having a panic attack. I used my self-soothe skills (it means something specific in DBT, even though all therapies advocate self soothing) and sensations skills to get through it with a minimum of duration and intensity.
Okay, in this era of cutting back, what about replacing some of the barely-used boards? Or whether by addition or substitution, what about boards like these (Tabitha, thanks for the brain wave!):
1. Skills - a focus on coping skills you/me/we are learning in therapy
2. Relationships or T issues - a focus on the relationship with the therapist, including transference
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 13:35:46
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Reply to all, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 12:12:25
After reading further posts at the psychology board, I am more convinced than ever that this psychology board is in fact dominated by people who are in psychoanalysis, or are in therapy that is dominated by psychodynamic approaches.
The problem then is that you can bring up a concept with others, but the concept will mean something very different, or it will mean nothing at all. For instance, boundaries. Boundaries are very, very important to DBT--declaring your boundaries and making sure you understand what they are. Boundaries are ESPECIALLY important between T and client.
With psychodynamic therapy, there is more fluidity, in part because of some of the core concepts like transference: "Passionately held contradictory positions espoused by senior clinicians make formulating psychodynamic boundary interventions a conceptual and clinical minefield for therapists.1214,1618 Clinicians who deviate from traditional practice risk censure from those who consider they have entered a danger zone of boundary fluidity. Other theorists dismiss traditional interventions as exclusively limit-setting techniques that diminish mutuality and empathic dialogue.1922 An integrated approach, one that honors traditional parameters and yet encourages an openness to creative, uncharted outcomes within ethical frames, is hard to find." http://jppr.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/8/4/292
That is just one example of many. So I'd like to see a "Psychodynamic" board (understanding this can encompass eclecticism) and a "Skills" board (for CBT, DBT etc., also understanding this can encompass elcecticism).
But since, as others have said, this site is moving towards streamlining, it might be better to just create my own bulletin board. I would love to connect with people who are doing the same work I am doing. Maybe that will not happen here. C'est la vie.
Pardon me for brain fog. I sometimes confuse terms. It's not idiocy, it's my brain fog. Physical conditions that make me confused, at times.
> These are all great suggestions, great feedback. (Alexandra, thank you for the validation.) And I am not offended by any criticism. Please understand that I did not mean to offend; what I said came from a place of wanting to be able to have a place to share with like-minded people. I am hearing from a few responses on the psychology board that others like or want to talk about solutions-focused therapy.
>
> Hmmm. Lots to think about.
>
> Of course, I agree that the lines are squishy; when I go to my DBT individual therapist, by necessity we end up "talking" about stuff, but we do so in service of understanding what my triggers are. We always come back to what I can do to cope. What skills. DBT has an elaborate framework, with lots of acronyms (DEAR MAN, FAST, GIVE, PLS, ACCEPTS), etc. Just last night, I was having a panic attack. I used my self-soothe skills (it means something specific in DBT, even though all therapies advocate self soothing) and sensations skills to get through it with a minimum of duration and intensity.
>
> Okay, in this era of cutting back, what about replacing some of the barely-used boards? Or whether by addition or substitution, what about boards like these (Tabitha, thanks for the brain wave!):
>
> 1. Skills - a focus on coping skills you/me/we are learning in therapy
> 2. Relationships or T issues - a focus on the relationship with the therapist, including transference
>
Posted by Nadezda on June 19, 2009, at 15:39:50
In reply to On second thought..., posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 13:35:46
The boards just reflect what people want to talk about, or have issues with.
If there were/are more people interested in discussing DBT, then I would hope/imagine/expect that discussions of DBT would start to occur and that there would be much greater participation in them, when they do come up.
Maybe it needs to be cultivated by a few people really interested in jump=starting and continuing threads on CBT and DBT-- I'd certainly be interested in discussing DBT. But people sometimes bring up DBT-- usually to ask if anyone knows about it-- and there';s certainly some response-- but those in DBT, if they're here, don't seem to have the same need for bringing their issues or road-blocks, or other problems, onto the board.
I don't think having a separate board would really help-- Maybe it's worth trying-- and seeing if it would take off. But often disentangling similar subjects just leads to another board where a few stragglers and no one else posts--and then silence. I'd rather encourage everyone to write in one space, particularly since many people seem to have experience with both types of therapy.
Nadezda
Posted by jane d on June 20, 2009, at 12:23:40
In reply to On second thought..., posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 13:35:46
Amelia,
You could be right that we need a second board. I suspect that some schools of therapy are as incompatible with each other as the extremes of the meds/anti meds positions.
Or it could be that the psychology board ended up the way it is by default. It's possible that if you start clearly labeled threads you'll find others are interested. Not everybody reads every post. For example the boundaries stuff in your post in this thread is very interesting. Why not repost it on Psychology with a clear subject line - something like "Boundaries in DBT vs psychodynamic". (I actually thought of just starting that thread myself with your quotes but that didn't seem quite fair)
I think I also saw something you posted about attachment theory buried in another thread that could be the start of it's own subject. This might grab the attention of people who, for whatever reason, didn't read that particular thread.
Who knows. It might end up changing the tone of the existing board.
jane,
who while sometimes morbidly fascinated by the psych board isn't really comfortable there either.>
> The problem then is that you can bring up a concept with others, but the concept will mean something very different, or it will mean nothing at all. For instance, boundaries. Boundaries are very, very important to DBT--declaring your boundaries and making sure you understand what they are. Boundaries are ESPECIALLY important between T and client.
>
> With psychodynamic therapy, there is more fluidity, in part because of some of the core concepts like transference: "Passionately held contradictory positions espoused by senior clinicians make formulating psychodynamic boundary interventions a conceptual and clinical minefield for therapists.1214,1618 Clinicians who deviate from traditional practice risk censure from those who consider they have entered a danger zone of boundary fluidity. Other theorists dismiss traditional interventions as exclusively limit-setting techniques that diminish mutuality and empathic dialogue.1922 An integrated approach, one that honors traditional parameters and yet encourages an openness to creative, uncharted outcomes within ethical frames, is hard to find." http://jppr.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/8/4/292
>
Posted by alexandra_k on June 30, 2009, at 20:52:19
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Reply to all, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 19, 2009, at 12:12:25
> 1. Skills - a focus on coping skills you/me/we are learning in therapy
> 2. Relationships or T issues - a focus on the relationship with the therapist, includingI could get behind that.
Posted by Kath on July 12, 2009, at 19:37:54
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? Reply to all, posted by alexandra_k on June 30, 2009, at 20:52:19
>
> > 1. Skills - a focus on coping skills you/me/we are learning in therapy
> > 2. Relationships or T issues - a focus on the relationship with the therapist,
~ ~ I think that might be a really good idea!Kath
Posted by BayLeaf on July 13, 2009, at 6:22:30
In reply to Re: Two psychology boards? I say 'yes', posted by Kath on July 12, 2009, at 19:37:54
This is the end of the thread.
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