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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 89. Go back in thread:
Posted by Toph on February 2, 2009, at 23:16:09
In reply to Re: Please contact Dr. Bob... » Sigismund, posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2009, at 19:39:59
> >using only nouns and verbs.
>
> Well, there would have been a few other parts of speech in there.Promised WMDs.
Invaded Iraq.
Killed people.
Tortured People.
Denied rights.
Surveilled citizens.
Lost respect.
Borrowed money.
Ruined economy.
Desired change.
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 12:46:36
In reply to Re: Politicspeak » Sigismund, posted by Toph on February 2, 2009, at 23:16:09
> Tortured People.
> Ruined economy.Please respect the views of others (such as supporters of previous administrations) even if you think they are wrong, by not posting things that could lead them to feel put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin, and should of course, be civil. Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
--10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Partlycloudy on February 3, 2009, at 13:33:45
In reply to Please be civil » Toph, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 12:46:36
This is the core of the problem: expressing an opinion (perhaps even popularly held, given the last election results) versus stating a fact. Nowhere did the poster say that they were stating a fact - it was merely their opinion; and although that works on other boards, it doesn't fly on Politics. There is no room for an individual's opinion - unless it's a positive one.
We might as well call the board Pollyanna Politics. It's not a place for discussion so much as a place for saying, "my sky is blue, what colour is yours?" (and the only possible reply would be, "well my sky is a splendid shade of green. Enjoy your blue sky.")
On the other hand, this is a mental health forum.
Posted by fayeroe on February 3, 2009, at 13:50:52
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Partlycloudy on February 3, 2009, at 13:33:45
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2009, at 14:22:13
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Partlycloudy on February 3, 2009, at 13:33:45
I pretty much stay away from the politics board because it is the nature of politics to elicit strong passions that are adversarial.
Could it be that the words "ruined" and "tortured" that are the problems? They are judgmental to some degree.
What if one were to say that the GDP declined by xx% during the Bush administration? Or. Water-boarding was a method of intelligence-gathering employed during the Bush administration.
Just curious.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2009, at 14:25:30
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by SLS on February 3, 2009, at 14:22:13
I'm sorry. Never mind. I think I'm just looking for trouble.
- Scott
> I pretty much stay away from the politics board because it is the nature of politics to elicit strong passions that are adversarial.
>
> Could it be that the words "ruined" and "tortured" that are the problems? They are judgmental to some degree.
>
> What if one were to say that the GDP declined by xx% during the Bush administration? Or. Water-boarding was a method of intelligence-gathering employed during the Bush administration.
>
> Just curious.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Toph on February 3, 2009, at 14:29:31
In reply to Please be civil » Toph, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 12:46:36
I apologize PC to supporters of torture and recession that I may have offended.
I was testing Sig's comment, but evidently using only nouns, verbs and facts does not prevent uncivil observations here.
It is interesting to me how stringing a few nouns and verbs together can be so unequivicably identifying as to which administration I may have been referring.
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 19:12:35
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Partlycloudy on February 3, 2009, at 13:33:45
>- it was merely their opinion; and although that works on other boards, it doesn't fly on Politics. There is no room for an individual's opinion - unless it's a positive one.
I don't see that difference. I'm unsure how that "works on other boards." It's never been civil to state negative opinions *or* facts, if stating either could lead others to feel accused or put down, or be insensitive to others' feelings, as other posters may support, love, employ, utilize, champion, give money to, work for or with, have voted for (and so on) the person, group, idea, etc. posted about.
For example, it's uncivil to post, let's say on Psychology, "In my opinion, psychodynamic psychotherapy is stupid and a waste of time and money. Why do you people allow these quacks to torture you?" Or to post - on any board - "In my opinion, organized religion, especially [insert your group of choice], is dangerous, ruins minds and threatens freedom in our time." Writers of such posts may see their own statements as facts OR opinions - but it doesn't matter re: civility.
I am trying to see where others see the difference, so we might have more understanding and a productive discussion here. It's really hard for me, and that's frustrating. Considering how passionately people do feel about political views, candidates and ideologies, it seems standing by the civility guidelines there is particularly vital to Dr. Bob's wish for support and education in the whole community. It *is* difficult to balance civility and free speech - no doubt about that, but I don't think impossible.
Of course, if the objection is that civility *should* be different (more relaxed?) on the Politics Board, that some here would prefer that, that's another thing entirely.
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 19:16:40
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by SLS on February 3, 2009, at 14:22:13
> I pretty much stay away from the politics board because it is the nature of politics to elicit strong passions that are adversarial.
Yes, I understand that. I wish it could be different, but....
> Could it be that the words "ruined" and "tortured" that are the problems? They are judgmental to some degree.
That's how I read those statements, yes.
>
> What if one were to say that the GDP declined by xx% during the Bush administration? Or. Water-boarding was a method of intelligence-gathering employed during the Bush administration.Those both sound fine to me.
> Just curious.I'm glad. And I wish you weren't sorry - you expressed the concept better than my long-winded blatherings ever do.
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 19:34:39
In reply to Who was he talking about? (nm), posted by fayeroe on February 3, 2009, at 13:50:52
Well, the best thing to do is to ask Toph, for sure.
(Toph, I'm sorry to be talking about you as if you're not here - I hate that - but I did want to find a way to answer Pat's question. Please feel free to straighten me out on anything I've assumed incorrectly, etc.)
I thought it was reasonable to see Toph's post as a response to Sigismund's comments on "previous administrations," as part of that post was quoted at the start.
Most of the list of phrases posted are commonly associated with negative descriptions of the administration, or policies, of former President G.W. Bush. When I asked that those sort of comments not be posted, posters who supported him and his administration, as well as *any* other administrations before Preident Obama's, are the individuals I was thinking could feel put down.
Reasonable people can disagree and misinterpret, and that includes deputies. But, as Dinah has posted recently, we are trying to administrate regarding Politics-related posts as evenhandedly as possible, in accordance with Dr. Bob's wishes, and with an eye toward support and education.
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 19:55:14
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Toph on February 3, 2009, at 14:29:31
> It is interesting to me how stringing a few nouns and verbs together can be so unequivicably identifying as to which administration I may have been referring.
It doesn't matter which administration you meant. I don't think I specified in my post...? I can't be 100% *sure* unless you specifically say, but that could be uncivil so I'm not recommending posting that! If another poster had mentioned (or begun a thought) "With this new (current) administration..." and you or anyone responded with similar negative phrases (perhaps in the future tense) - that would also be uncivil.
The focus of my request to be civil was avoiding negative characterizations about any administrations - to increase respect and sensitivity for differing views. That's all.
Of course, I know I am likely completely missing your point :-)
-- 10der
Posted by Toph on February 3, 2009, at 22:00:41
In reply to which administration(s) » Toph, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 19:55:14
I was merely trying to experiment with Sig's suggested style.
> Tortured People.
> Ruined economy.
I should have said...
Tortured Mohammed al-Qahtani.*
Oversaw collapse.*according to senior US official Susan Crawford
Posted by Sigismund on February 4, 2009, at 1:35:05
In reply to Re: which administration(s) » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Toph on February 3, 2009, at 22:00:41
Allow me to report myself (in violation of the civility rules)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20081212/msgs/877537.html
in which I mentioned Franck's comment that a thousand years would pass and Germany's guilt would not be erased.
Since there are no Germans on the politics board to be offended and since all rules at the margins create absurdities, I think we can say that the civility rules are working as well as can be expected.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 9:49:49
In reply to Re: which administration(s) » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Toph on February 3, 2009, at 22:00:41
> Tortured Mohammed al-Qahtani.*
> *according to senior US official Susan Crawford
Please don't quote anything that is in violation of the civility guidelines, as you have already been informed this statement would be.
Scott's suggestions were good ones, and would not be deemed to be uncivil.
You have just been warned to be civil on this matter already, so I'm going to have to block you from posting for one week.
Followups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil. And should not quote material that is in violation of the civility guidelines.
Dr. Bob was available last night and has already ruled on this matter. However, should anyone wish to contact him about this or any other matter, his email is at the bottom of each page.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by fayeroe on February 4, 2009, at 11:29:02
In reply to Blocked for a week » Toph, posted by Deputy Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 9:49:49
@&%$+&%#!
Posted by Sigismund on February 4, 2009, at 16:20:32
In reply to problem words » SLS, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 3, 2009, at 19:16:40
I don't see why 'tortured' should be a problem.
I thought the idea was that there could be a legitimate debate about whether the use of it was OK.
Has that idea has been quietly forgotten?
Posted by Sigismund on February 4, 2009, at 16:39:15
In reply to Re: Politicspeak » Sigismund, posted by Toph on February 2, 2009, at 23:16:09
There's no problem with 'invaded'?
Would citizens of the US feel put down if their country was said to have invaded another, for reasons (or lack thereof) which may in themselves lead those citizens to feel put down?
What about 'liberated'?
Posted by gabbette on February 4, 2009, at 23:12:53
In reply to Blocked for a week?, posted by fayeroe on February 4, 2009, at 11:29:02
I'd find it far less frightening if certain topics were forbidden altogether.
Being forced to find innoffensive euphemisms for atrocities is f*cking blood chilling.
Posted by gabbette on February 4, 2009, at 23:23:31
In reply to Blocked for a week?, posted by fayeroe on February 4, 2009, at 11:29:02
While were at it, can we find less judgemental
words for child abuse? Rape?
I was raped, I guess that implies judgement.Perhaps I should say,
"He found a use for my body in a way he enjoyed but I found highly disagreeable"Or is it like "The murder of one person is a tragedy the murder of thousands is a statistic"
so it's okay in fact preferable, to not look them in the eye, (figuratively speaking) dismiss the horror, and infer by omission that they had a choice.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 23:24:48
In reply to Re: Blocked for a week?, posted by gabbette on February 4, 2009, at 23:12:53
I remind Dr. Bob that many sites just don't allow religion or politics as topics.
But he prefers to allow posters to discuss them, under the same civility guidelines that apply everywhere else.
Posted by gabbette on February 5, 2009, at 0:54:06
In reply to I'd find it preferable too » gabbette, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 23:24:48
Hallo Dinah
I realize the deputies are enforcing his guidelines whether or not they are always agreed with. (That was a badly formed sentence)
No daggers aimed your way.
I'd much rather have you here as deputy for all the good you do, than have you turn in your badge because of a difference in preference in one area.btw.
I tell people who are important to me "They don't have to call back" too.
That made me chuckle.
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2009, at 7:56:22
In reply to Re: I'd find it preferable too » Dinah, posted by gabbette on February 5, 2009, at 0:54:06
Thanks Gabbi.
I don't disagree with Dr. Bob's application of the civility guidelines to all boards. But I do think the current situation causes a fair amount of confusion and distress.
Not that it's that much different than any other board. On every board there are difficulties in balancing what a poster might wish to say with what a poster is allowed to say. I am no doubt not alone when I decide not to say anything at all, if I don't think I can say it within the civility guidelines within the energy level I have to expend on the matter.
But I think it's a special challenge on the topics of Religion and Politics.
The things we do to protect ourselves... Mind you, my therapist agrees that I should probably keep protecting myself that way by telling him he doesn't need to call. So maybe in his case, it's the smart thing to do. :)
Posted by fayeroe on February 5, 2009, at 9:26:42
In reply to Re: I'd find it preferable too » gabbette, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2009, at 7:56:22
> Thanks Gabbi.
>
> I don't disagree with Dr. Bob's application of the civility guidelines to all boards. But I do think the current situation causes a fair amount of confusion and distress.Dinah, please tell me what the current situation is?
How did this start?
Who is confused?Who is in distress? (I'm not talking about Topher being blocked..that is another subject altogether)
>
> Not that it's that much different than any other board. On every board there are difficulties in balancing what a poster might wish to say with what a poster is allowed to say. I am no doubt not alone when I decide not to say anything at all, if I don't think I can say it within the civility guidelines within the energy level I have to expend on the matter.
>
> But I think it's a special challenge on the topics of Religion and Politics.The challenge on the Politics board was a few months ago. I'm only aware of this latest discussion being here on administration.
Did someone get blocked from Politics, recently, due to uncivil behavior?
>
> The things we do to protect ourselves... Mind you, my therapist agrees that I should probably keep protecting myself that way by telling him he doesn't need to call. So maybe in his case, it's the smart thing to do. :)Thank you.
Pat
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2009, at 9:33:15
In reply to Re: I'd find it preferable too » Dinah, posted by fayeroe on February 5, 2009, at 9:26:42
Posted by fayeroe on February 5, 2009, at 11:23:19
In reply to Re: I'd find it preferable too » gabbette, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2009, at 7:56:22
Dinah..."But I do think the current situation causes a fair amount of confusion and distress."
I thought "current" meant right now. Ongoing.
I'll have to look in the dictionary.
"
Posting "a fair amount of confusion and distress" could cause some posters to wonder if you are talking about them. I've certainly been reminded time and again to not post anything that might be confusing to other posters.If I had posted it, would I have gotten a PBC?
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