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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 61 to 85 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 19:05:40
In reply to as things stand now....., posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 12:15:17
I also feel distressed by this. I believe that it was me who asked Dinah to assume more of a leadership role in Dr. Bob's absence, in her roles as a deputy and long-time much valued and loved poster, to help us weather the tough times we were dealing with. I was so glad when she said that she would, and. like CS, was quite worried when she changed her mind. It really did seem to me, also, that she did not want to continue because she was distressed by the differing viewpoints which posters were expressing. I had assumed that she would deal in a reasonable and fair fashion with whatever views were expressed, and would have an intuitive understanding that a number of posters might be unusually stressed, and might express views that were more extreme than their usual ones. However, as it turned out, at the first hint of views different from her own, she wanted to quit. This dismayed me, and, I gather, other posters, a great deal.
It is really good to support your deputy, but what about the feelings of posters who really needed Dinah to step up to the plate and help them move beyond the anxiety and stresses caused by her original decision to resign as a deputy?
One articulate poster is now blocked just for speaking honestly, from her heart, and without malice or hostility. As you block her, you express your hope that Dinah's feelings are not hurt. That is valuable and important- but not more so than the feelings of the blocked poster, whom you have silenced.If you go on in this way, you will end up, sooner rather than later, with a few compliant deputies and an adequate number of subservient posters, whose main goal will be to make sure that they do not offend anyone. I would, personally., be thrilled not to belong to a group as intimidated and damaged as that.
I originally "joined" PB because of its liveliness, the intelligence of its discourse, the richness of the content, and the sheer fun of
all the unexpected things that happened here. Where are those wonderful, ineffable qualities now?
Posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 22:32:40
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 15:49:50
>I understand that more consistent communication would help. But I don't think that's the whole answer, either, since in fact it wasn't enough to post one simple post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080204/msgs/816450.html
*I find this very interesting, what COULD Bob best do when he can't be around???? I have wondered this before.
My best suggestion is that he tells us in advance...but he proly don't know when he gonna get swamped?
Or maybe its in the wording?
Or timing? as in getting a post in sooner before it escalates as far as it did?
M
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 23:31:09
In reply to Re: as things stand now, continued....., posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 19:05:40
> at the first hint of views different from her own, she wanted to quit.
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others -- even deputies -- to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
And Dinah, I'm sorry if you felt hurt by that post.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 23:50:30
In reply to Re: as things stand now, continued....., posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 19:05:40
> That doesn't actually seem fair at all to me, and I'd like to request that this block be rescinded for this reason.
>
> ClearSkiesI'm sure she appreciates the support, but I think she had enough time.
--
> It is really good to support your deputy, but what about the feelings of posters who really needed Dinah to step up to the plate and help them move beyond the anxiety and stresses caused by her original decision to resign as a deputy?
I wasn't able to meet the needs of posters myself, so I can hardly expect the deputies to. It's hard to balance our own needs and the needs of others. I hope we can stay engaged with each other despite that.
> If you go on in this way, you will end up, sooner rather than later, with a few compliant deputies and an adequate number of subservient posters, whose main goal will be to make sure that they do not offend anyone.
In the same way that assertiveness isn't always healthy, compliance isn't always unhealthy. I encourage healthy attempts to be appropriately compliant.
> I originally "joined" PB because of its liveliness, the intelligence of its discourse, the richness of the content, and the sheer fun of all the unexpected things that happened here. Where are those wonderful, ineffable qualities now?
>
> twinleafMaybe there isn't room for them here right now. I think they'll return after we work through some issues.
Bob
Posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 23:55:29
In reply to Re: as things stand now, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 23:50:30
>I'm sure she appreciates the support, but I think she had enough time.
*whoah dude, like HOW much time was actually given??? and on a weekend???
Manoman.....
M
Posted by KAL44 on March 31, 2008, at 8:05:41
In reply to whoah.. » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 23:55:29
I used to post under different names at various times and have been blocked before under other names. Your comments echo my sentiments and reflect why I hardly post anywhere anymore. It was once good to post about therapy on psychology like twinleaf said, but I would never consider it anymore. I do not feel safe here. I would be afraid I would be talked about behind my back. I feel like I am going to get blocked for things I said here, and this is how paranoid I have become about babble.
Posted by rskontos on March 31, 2008, at 18:21:52
In reply to Re: whoah.. » muffled, posted by KAL44 on March 31, 2008, at 8:05:41
see i come back and this gets started again by you Dr. Bob and now I wished I could erase my thread on psychology. I am getting anxious again. Twinleaf expressed how she felt and you did not listen because you are now threatening to block her unless she takes something back. When did this policy change take effect? If you ask me and you did not, this is a childish way to handle things. You, the founder of this site are pitting posters against posters and I am going to leave this site if this continues. It makes me feel ill to see this happening.
But then again I guess you will just say then there is not room for me here.
rsk
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 31, 2008, at 19:02:46
In reply to Re: whoah..here we go again, posted by rskontos on March 31, 2008, at 18:21:52
> > I think she had enough time.
>
> whoah dude, like HOW much time was actually given???
>
> MIn this case, I posted my request on 3/25 and blocked her on 3/30, so 5 days.
--
> Twinleaf expressed how she felt and you did not listen because you are now threatening to block her unless she takes something back.
I did listen to her, I just didn't agree with how she posted. And I'm not asking her to take back what she said, I'm asking her to say something about herself rather than Dinah.
> If you ask me and you did not, this is a childish way to handle things. You, the founder of this site are pitting posters against posters
>
> rskThat's interesting, I thought I was doing the opposite!
Bob
Posted by ClearSkies on April 1, 2008, at 12:57:52
In reply to Re: whoah..here we go again, posted by Dr. Bob on March 31, 2008, at 19:02:46
> > > I think she had enough time.
> >
> > whoah dude, like HOW much time was actually given???
> >
> > M
>
> In this case, I posted my request on 3/25 and blocked her on 3/30, so 5 days.
>OK, I can't see where it's stated in the FAQ that if you don't rephrase a post when requested that you'll be blocked after a period of time - can you point that out to me?
And how was that communicated to the poster before they were blocked? (i.e., "please rephrase within xx number of days or you may be blocked" might have been an incentive for the rephrase to have happened?) I just don't see that the block was a presumed consequence of the request to rephrase according to the current guidelines, and would like to have this clarified for the future. Unfortunately, at this point I think we have lost the particular poster who has been blocked from returning to the boards again, partly because of how this matter was, or wasn't, administered.
Thanks
CS
Posted by fayeroe on April 1, 2008, at 15:07:54
In reply to Re: as things stand now, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 23:50:30
Bob said: "I wasn't able to meet the needs of posters myself, so I can hardly expect the deputies to. It's hard to balance our own needs and the needs of others. I hope we can stay engaged with each other despite that."
Why do you have deputies?
Posted by twinleaf on April 1, 2008, at 16:15:53
In reply to Re: as things stand now » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 1, 2008, at 15:07:54
Despite our hopes, and at least one request by me, for the deputies to assume a leadership role in calming peoples' fears and anxieties, they apparently did not feel comfortable doing that. This may have a lot to do with the nature and limitations of the training they received in order to become deputies.
They are very confident (if not always completely fair) with delivering PCB's and posting blocks. That is apparently their sole purpose and function.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2008, at 8:48:53
In reply to Re: as things stand now.......the deputies, posted by twinleaf on April 1, 2008, at 16:15:53
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2008, at 8:58:57
In reply to Re: as things stand now » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 1, 2008, at 15:07:54
> OK, I can't see where it's stated in the FAQ that if you don't rephrase a post when requested that you'll be blocked after a period of time - can you point that out to me?
>
> CSI prefer to ask than to threaten. It's so easy for things to get adversarial. The block isn't for not rephrasing, it's for having posted something I considered uncivil:
> > If I see a problem with something someone posts, I usually try to explain what it is I see as the problem. If it's the first time for them, I usually just ask them please to be more careful. If I've already done that, I may block them from posting for a period of time.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
--
> Why do you have deputies?
>
> fayeroeI can't always be online, so their main function is to help me maintain an atmosphere of civility:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#deputies
It's not always easy to calm fears and anxieties. Plus someone doesn't need to be a deputy to reach out to, support, calm, or reassure someone else, to diffuse a situation, or just not to stir the pot:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/819756.html
It's also a good question, whether I could do more to prepare them for these types of situations. Hopefully all of us have learned something this time that will help us get through next time.
Bob
Posted by twinleaf on April 2, 2008, at 9:17:04
In reply to Re: as things stand now, posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2008, at 8:58:57
I don't know whether or not other posters felt surprised and disappointed when the deputies did not assume leadership roles involving calming, offering support and reassurance, coping with anger, etc., but I did. Now that I know how intense, lengthy and precise their training was about how to deal with civility issues, and those only, I understand better. If you would like to have deputies who can rise to broader, more flexible leadership positions when the need arises, it looks as though you will need to train them for that.
Posted by AuntieMel on April 3, 2008, at 8:29:47
In reply to Re: as things stand now.......the deputies, posted by twinleaf on April 1, 2008, at 16:15:53
"They are very confident (if not always completely fair) with delivering PCB's and posting blocks. That is apparently their sole purpose and function."
In fact, in a way, that is factually correct. When a deputy is acting as a deputy the main duty is to enforce the rules, not to interpret them.
Many posters have trouble separating the roles the deputies play as enforcers and as posters with all the troubles and fears as other posters. This is why separate IDs were developed.
Believe me, the deptuties agonizes over the dual roles.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2008, at 9:18:31
In reply to Re: as things stand now...Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 2, 2008, at 9:17:04
> If you would like to have deputies who can rise to broader, more flexible leadership positions when the need arises, it looks as though you will need to train them for that.
That makes sense. But what exactly would the goal of the training be? What would you like to see leaders do?
Also, it's perfectly reasonable to depend on the deputies to perform deputy functions, but regular posters are also able to calm, offer support and reassurance, address anger, etc. It may even be more effective coming from them.
Bob
Posted by twinleaf on April 3, 2008, at 17:45:29
In reply to Re: as things stand now, posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2008, at 9:18:31
I'm not sure training a deputy to be a leader in stressful times is something one can actually do. Perhaps the best way to approach it would be to make sure that posters trained as deputies know that they may be called upon to exercise leadership functions in rare times when a crisis occurs and you are not here. How each person does that is going to be unique to them- the sum of their knowledge, their intuition, their personal sense of what is needed. It will never be, and shouldn't be, the same for any two deputies.
I actually very much wanted to help in the recent crisis, and felt that I had the skills to do so, but I stopped myself, because i thought it would be presumptuous and disrespectful of me to take on any function which seemed (to me) to belong to the deputies!
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2008, at 22:38:50
In reply to Re: as things stand now...deputy roles, posted by twinleaf on April 3, 2008, at 17:45:29
> I'm not sure training a deputy to be a leader in stressful times is something one can actually do. Perhaps the best way to approach it would be to make sure that posters trained as deputies know that they may be called upon to exercise leadership functions in rare times when a crisis occurs and you are not here. How each person does that is going to be unique to them- the sum of their knowledge, their intuition, their personal sense of what is needed. It will never be, and shouldn't be, the same for any two deputies.
I agree, making sure they know about the possibility makes sense. As does giving them the freedom to respond the way they think is best.
> I actually very much wanted to help in the recent crisis, and felt that I had the skills to do so, but I stopped myself, because i thought it would be presumptuous and disrespectful of me to take on any function which seemed (to me) to belong to the deputies!
That's an interesting dynamic. I wonder if a perception of me as not being open to help -- or as myself having skills, but not helping -- may have contributed.
Bob
Posted by twinleaf on April 7, 2008, at 19:08:20
In reply to Re: skills to help, posted by Dr. Bob on April 6, 2008, at 22:38:50
No, I don't think that was playing a role. When you were able to start posting again, it was clear how much you wanted board members to join you in finding good solutions. It looked as though a number of posters were still angry and did not feel like replying. That seems to have eased up a lot more recently.
I just assumed that the deputies would jump in to help- perhaps having discussions with one another to develop the broadest and most helpful strategies to support and calm people. Instead, it seemed as though the deputies became part of the problem, supporting only one another and like-minded posters, and, I believe, using PCBs and blocks more liberally for posters whom they did not know particularly well and/or who held opposing views.I think everyone is aware that several people who were treated in this way are no longer posting. It would be great if the deputies were prepared to offer broad-based, impartial leadership when it is needed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2008, at 11:18:28
In reply to an interesting dynamic....... » Dr. Bob, posted by twinleaf on April 7, 2008, at 19:08:20
> > I wonder if a perception of me as not being open to help -- or as myself having skills, but not helping -- may have contributed.
>
> No, I don't think that was playing a role. When you were able to start posting again, it was clear how much you wanted board members to join you in finding good solutions.When I started posting again, yes, but perhaps not when I wasn't?
> I just assumed that the deputies would jump in to help- perhaps having discussions with one another to develop the broadest and most helpful strategies to support and calm people. ... It would be great if the deputies were prepared to offer broad-based, impartial leadership when it is needed.
Maybe deputies could have responded differently, and maybe posters could have, too. Leadership is important, and so is followership.
Bob
Posted by muffled on April 21, 2008, at 11:57:57
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2008, at 11:18:28
I think its more for me bout old tapes in my head. Bout parent thats not available, that makes kid feel abandoneded and afraid. Old stuff. No longer valid, but stupidly still there.
But I can feel abandoned and feel its not safe, cuz 'parent' is unreliable and not a source of safety, but a source of fear.
Therefore, I leave the 'home' cuz I am afraid. There is not safety there.
The parent from time to time and can be nice, or parent can be unfeeling and hurt other siblings too. One never knows.
One never knows if parent is gonna be good or bad at any given moment. Confusion.
Too hard to tolerate.
Can't stand to see siblings hurt.
Thats my analogy for me.
Proly dumb, but best as I can do.
Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
Bob is an unreliable parent to this poster whose chose to be vulnerable here. This poster never know if he gonna hurt her or others. This poster not understand at all, and so is scared. This poster never know who parent is gonna be, good or bad? Present, or off in they own head, therefore 'away'.
M
Posted by fayeroe on April 21, 2008, at 12:14:15
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2008, at 11:18:28
> > > I wonder if a perception of me as not being open to help -- or as myself having skills, but not helping -- may have contributed.
> >
> > No, I don't think that was playing a role. When you were able to start posting again, it was clear how much you wanted board members to join you in finding good solutions.
>
> When I started posting again, yes, but perhaps not when I wasn't?
>
> > I just assumed that the deputies would jump in to help- perhaps having discussions with one another to develop the broadest and most helpful strategies to support and calm people. ... It would be great if the deputies were prepared to offer broad-based, impartial leadership when it is needed.
>
> Maybe deputies could have responded differently, and maybe posters could have, too. Leadership is important, and so is followership.
>
> Bobfollowers with mental health issues frequently find leadership difficult at best. setting up a website for the people here carries responsibilities that you chose for yourself. leadership, understanding, safety and continuity. we're reading the ads that you sell space for here, isn't that helpful for you, Bob?
i'm going for discussion here, not discension. want to be very clear about that up front.
leadership is learned by example. if a person isn't taught that as a child, it's pretty hard to learn how to embrace it as a grownup.
my feeling is the followers are just that......some just aren't here for pitching in more than they can. as muffled put it so well, safety is very important.
putting oneself out front can be disastrous for many.
pat
p.s. the people who voiced their fear, anger and confusion during the last occurence were doing the best that they could do then.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2008, at 2:53:33
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on April 21, 2008, at 12:14:15
> I think its more for me bout old tapes in my head. Bout parent thats not available, that makes kid feel abandoneded and afraid. Old stuff. No longer valid, but stupidly still there.
> One never knows if parent is gonna be good or bad at any given moment. Confusion.
> Too hard to tolerate.
> Thats my analogy for me.
> Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
>
> MThanks for sharing that, it's a great example of how old tapes can be triggered by a current situation.
To continue with your analogy, could other siblings help, too?
--
> we're reading the ads that you sell space for here, isn't that helpful for you, Bob?
>
> i'm going for discussion here, not discension. want to be very clear about that up front.
>
> my feeling is the followers are just that......some just aren't here for pitching in more than they can.
>
> putting oneself out front can be disastrous for many.
>
> pat
>
> p.s. the people who voiced their fear, anger and confusion during the last occurence were doing the best that they could do then.I think discussion, constructive criticism, and reading ads are all examples of good followership. Anything else?
How could putting oneself out front be disastrous?
None of us should be expected to do more than we can. But it might help if we just did things differently.
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on April 23, 2008, at 7:06:06
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2008, at 2:53:33
Bob said "How could putting oneself out front be disastrous?"
You are the psychiatrist, you tell me.
Posted by muffled on April 23, 2008, at 8:59:25
In reply to Re: an interesting dynamic, posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2008, at 2:53:33
> > I think its more for me bout old tapes in my head. Bout parent thats not available, that makes kid feel abandoneded and afraid. Old stuff. No longer valid, but stupidly still there.
> > One never knows if parent is gonna be good or bad at any given moment. Confusion.
> > Too hard to tolerate.
> > Thats my analogy for me.
> > Deputies are just like older siblings to me, they try and help as best they can, they not parents.
> >
> > M
>
> Thanks for sharing that, it's a great example of how old tapes can be triggered by a current situation.
>
> To continue with your analogy, could other siblings help, too?*up to a point only...and they cannot take away the fear of the parent.
> > we're reading the ads that you sell space for here, isn't that helpful for you, Bob?
> >
> > i'm going for discussion here, not discension. want to be very clear about that up front.
> >
> > my feeling is the followers are just that......some just aren't here for pitching in more than they can.
> >
> > putting oneself out front can be disastrous for many.
> >
> > pat
> >
> > p.s. the people who voiced their fear, anger and confusion during the last occurence were doing the best that they could do then.
>
> I think discussion, constructive criticism, and reading ads are all examples of good followership. Anything else?
>
> How could putting oneself out front be disastrous?
>
> None of us should be expected to do more than we can. But it might help if we just did things differently.
>
> Bob*I NOT a "follower". That sounds cult. I not read ads either.
So mebbe I a bad "follower", HA!
I do not follow.
Why you ask questions anyways?
It makes you more "here" Bob.
Yo dude and thats probelematic right?
Thot you was gonna stay away.
Let us be our own people.
I was on another site, they delete all records once in awhile. I like that.
M
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