![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 102. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2008, at 14:17:07
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/818806.html
Twinleaf suggested that we start a new thread for posters to post their suggestions and proposed solutions to help Babble recover to what it was before this crisis more quickly.
Let's try to keep it positive, please, and respectful of everyone's proposals. And in accordance with the civility guidelines please.
I think it can be easily agreed without a lot of discussion that it would be helpful for Dr. Bob to come and respond on board. I'm not saying it should go without saying. It can definitely be said. But perhaps we could add to that basic premise?
Posted by Sigismund on March 19, 2008, at 15:04:04
In reply to Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2008, at 14:17:07
Change the maths in the blocking formula, so the blocks are shorter.
Make the blocking transparent, in particular the 'generalization' thing.
Restrict blockings to personal attacks.
That blocks be capped at something like 2 months.
Posted by Toph on March 19, 2008, at 15:48:11
In reply to Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2008, at 14:17:07
How about something where a reader of the post is the one who identifies a post as offensive (though administration has to agree). This through a post or a button. If no one claims foul, no sanction (an administrator could also object, I suppose).
Also, it would be nice if the poster and the offended were given some time (a day or two) to work things out through discussing the incivility, an apology or retraction.
A system which involves posters policing themselves is more complicated than rigid rules, but better, IMO. It may also be too idealisic and unmanagable, sadly.
Posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 9:23:44
In reply to Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2008, at 14:17:07
Two things stand out for me:
1. The question of fairness and equality in giving out PCBs and blocks. For several years, I have noticed a weakness in how this is done. One poster can act in an angry, hostile or sarcastic manner towards another poster without using any trigger words which can be quoted. That poster, who is the instigator, does not get any warning. If another poster objects to this, he or she is the one who gets a warning or a block. I have noticed this happening here for years, and always considered it unfair. It just happened to me for the first time, and it was very irritating.My suggestion is that the deputies look into this problem and try to address the question of what to do. Possible solutions include not giving PCBs immediately, having posters who feel they have been treated badly use the notification capability, and looking more at the overall picture so as to apply any warnings or blocks evenly.2. Having the deputies develop some guidelines about their responsibilities that go beyond punitive actions. Specifically, some guidelines could be developed to meet the needs of individual posters during times of high stress. I am thinking of supportive efforts towards posters who begin to feel too anxious or unsafe to post, and calming, reassuring efforts towards posters who are feeling angry, unappreciated or misunderstood here. In Bob's absence, it's vital for the deputies to have a broader sense of their responsibilities than they do now. As things stand, we have had a steady increase in anxiety and anger on the part of a number of posters, and the only measures which are taken are civility warnings. Worse, there is a widespread perception that the warnings are not given out impartially, but are applied preferentially to posters who are not personally close to the deputies. Posters who are close to them are not given warnings for that reason. This is very unfortunate. Deputies have an opportunity to be leaders- to calm worries and fears, and to be role models for others to trust. If they appear to be unduly biased towards their friends, they lose all credibility.
As to the leadership roles of calming fears and easing people' anger, Babble has a number of current posts right now which have so far gone unanswered. A word to these posters would probably help a lot.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 20, 2008, at 12:36:49
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 9:23:44
> As to the leadership roles of calming fears and easing people' anger, Babble has a number of current posts right now which have so far gone unanswered. A word to these posters would probably help a lot.
I know I've been absent from my leadership role recently, and I apologize for that. I understand it may have triggered fear and anger. I'm working on getting back here. Thanks for your patience,
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on March 20, 2008, at 14:12:08
In reply to Re: posts which have so far gone unanswered, posted by Dr. Bob on March 20, 2008, at 12:36:49
1. I don't feel that a lengthy blocks helps the posters here. In fact, I believe that a block that lasts more than a month could do more damage than good.
2. Change the math that is used to figure the blocks. I don't understand it (math is not my strong suit) and frequently wouldn't have the time to work it out, even if I could.
3. In a time of crisis, I think it would be really nice to see the deputies and the "older members" lend themselves to calming the members that are obviously very upset. . I would like to see the deputies and posters acknowledge that people who are scared, hurt and angry respond differently than they do when things are running smoothly.
4.I believe that helping people feel safe is more important than a PBC when the person isn't really very responsible for what's happening in their heart and head. Diffusing a situation shows compassion and the poster knows they have been heard.
5. I don't believe that this site can run itself. I've always believed that responsibility starts at the top.
6. This isn't aimed at any one deputy. I am not casting blame, just suggestions for the future.
7. It would be really cool if by looking at what has happened in the past few days the posters could committ to not "stirring the pot" as that is very upsetting to people who want to see a solution...not more conflict.
Posted by Sigismund on March 20, 2008, at 14:41:41
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 9:23:44
One thing that could be useful is that if someone is posting in an angry manner, that someone writes to him/her and asks in a friendly way if there is anything wrong because the posts come across as angry.
That is likely to be of more use than public censure.
> Two things stand out for me:
>
> 1. The question of fairness and equality in giving out PCBs and blocks. For several years, I have noticed a weakness in how this is done. One poster can act in an angry, hostile or sarcastic manner towards another poster without using any trigger words which can be quoted. That poster, who is the instigator, does not get any warning. If another poster objects to this, he or she is the one who gets a warning or a block. I have noticed this happening here for years, and always considered it unfair. It just happened to me for the first time, and it was very irritating.My suggestion is that the deputies look into this problem and try to address the question of what to do. Possible solutions include not giving PCBs immediately, having posters who feel they have been treated badly use the notification capability, and looking more at the overall picture so as to apply any warnings or blocks evenly.
>
> 2. Having the deputies develop some guidelines about their responsibilities that go beyond punitive actions. Specifically, some guidelines could be developed to meet the needs of individual posters during times of high stress. I am thinking of supportive efforts towards posters who begin to feel too anxious or unsafe to post, and calming, reassuring efforts towards posters who are feeling angry, unappreciated or misunderstood here. In Bob's absence, it's vital for the deputies to have a broader sense of their responsibilities than they do now. As things stand, we have had a steady increase in anxiety and anger on the part of a number of posters, and the only measures which are taken are civility warnings. Worse, there is a widespread perception that the warnings are not given out impartially, but are applied preferentially to posters who are not personally close to the deputies. Posters who are close to them are not given warnings for that reason. This is very unfortunate. Deputies have an opportunity to be leaders- to calm worries and fears, and to be role models for others to trust. If they appear to be unduly biased towards their friends, they lose all credibility.
>
> As to the leadership roles of calming fears and easing people' anger, Babble has a number of current posts right now which have so far gone unanswered. A word to these posters would probably help a lot.
Posted by Toph on March 20, 2008, at 15:05:29
In reply to Re: posts which have so far gone unanswered, posted by Dr. Bob on March 20, 2008, at 12:36:49
> I know I've been absent from my leadership role recently, and I apologize for that. I understand it may have triggered fear and anger. I'm working on getting back here. Thanks for your patience,
>
> BobThis terse statement is reassuring and will tend to make me more patient. My only question at this point is, it must have taken you, what, one minute to write it. Why couldn't you have written it when this whole thing blew up over a week ago?
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2008, at 17:55:29
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 9:23:44
I am at a complete loss at how to answer this, since I do not share the basic premise that deputies are biased.
However, I've defended my honor often enough already. Those that believe me will believe me. Those that don't aren't likely to now. I see no point in continuing to explain my position.
And while I can not state that my leadership abilities are equal to my integrity, I think perhaps Dr. Bob is the one to address that issue to. I am what I am. I have tried to be calming. I did my best. I've apologized that my best wasn't good enough. There is nothing more I can do.
I started a new thread, at your request, to discuss this. Yet sadly I feel I must withdraw.
Posted by fayeroe on March 20, 2008, at 19:43:03
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2008, at 17:55:29
Twinleaf, I have felt for sometime that some posters are treated differently than others.It is a gut feeling that I get sometimes when I read a thread. We aren't the only ones who talk about it.
Dinah, I do not understand why you feel you should stay out of the thread. How is your honor being questioned? I haven't heard anyone say that you aren't an honorable person. Direct me to the thread, if I am mistaken.
You started the thread and I, for one, would like for you to facilitate it. Perhaps you can step back, from Dinah the poster, and assume the role of a Deputy and look at it as a mediation issue.
This is not a personal attack upon you. I hope that you are not truly convinced that it is, but if you are convinced, perhaps you can persuade Bob to enter into the thread.
People are trying to address concerns that do not just concern one person.
Posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 19:50:36
In reply to Re: posts which have so far gone unanswered, posted by Dr. Bob on March 20, 2008, at 12:36:49
Thank you, Dr. Bob. It's good to know that you will be interacting with us more, after you have had a chance to read and think about
the postings of the last two and a half weeks.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2008, at 20:02:19
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » Dinah, posted by fayeroe on March 20, 2008, at 19:43:03
I would not consider it honorable to treat posters differently based on my personal feelings for them. To me, being biased in administrating would be dishonorable.
So if one is being said of me, I fail to see how the other does not logically follow.
It is not against the rules to say such things about deputies. However, I do not feel that I can contribute anything useful to a discussion based on that premise.
I'm not trying to stop the discussion. Dr. Bob has seen the thread, and will make whatever contribution he wishes to make. Posters can post freely whatever they think about deputies. And other deputies may not have said as much on the topic as I already have, and may feel they have something to contribute.
Posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 20:43:44
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2008, at 17:55:29
I was so pleased that you were willing to start this thread, Dinah. I feel the same as Fayeroe. We are not saying that you are biased, at all, but rather that we are two of the posters who feel that the civility warnings and blocks have been applied in a biased manner from time to time in the past. I don't have either Bob or any particular deputy in mind when I say that- it's the injustice, rather than any specific poster or deputy, which has lingered in my mind.
I was hoping that you could play a leadership role in helping Babble begin to regain its former supportive role in our lives. I hoped that you would do that as a deputy rather than as a poster. Asking for suggestions is bound to result in opinions being put forward you don't agree with, or that you think are just plain wrong. They are not being offered as criticisms of you. Rather, they are the views of certain posters about injustices which they feel have occurred here. This particular thread may be one of the first times on Babble where any poster can let us know their real thoughts about how Babble has been run. Like anything else, Babble has many wonderful things about it, mixed in with things that have not always been optimal.
Perhaps the best question to ask yourself is not "can I tolerate posters implying that I am biased?" (noone has said anything like that), but rather, "can I tolerate hearing that some posters feel that bias has occurred on this site?" That is what some of us are saying.
It sounds as though it might be a while before Bob is able to respond to us, so it would be wonderful if you, and the other deputies, could help in a leadership role in the meantime. Just having a forum to allow disaffected Babblers to express their concerns would be very useful. We may hear from some very angry, frustrated posters, but we'll also hear some excellent, thoughtful ideas. It would make a very good starting point for discussion and problem-solving for us all.
Posted by adelaide curtis on March 20, 2008, at 22:56:28
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2008, at 17:55:29
why cant you take a "suggestion" with out feeling hurt and threaten to run away from this thread? you asked...
opions that may not be yours are still opions that need to be listened to and respected..
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2008, at 10:31:17
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 20:43:44
I appreciate your clarifying that, Twinleaf.
> This particular thread may be one of the first times on Babble where any poster can let us know their real thoughts about how Babble has been run.
I'm glad that this thread has given you the opportunity to express your real thoughts about how Babble has been run, and if it gives any other posters who don't feel they have a voice the opportunity to express their real thoughts. This hasn't actually been my experience at Babble. It has always seemed to me that posters, including myself, have expressed their real thoughts about Babble administration at will, as long as they remain within the bounds of the civility guidelines. But I know that different people can experience the same situation in different ways, and for those who have not felt themselves free to express themselves in the past, I'm glad they now feel they have that opportunity.
> We may hear from some very angry, frustrated posters, but we'll also hear some excellent, thoughtful ideas. It would make a very good starting point for discussion and problem-solving for us all.
I had thought, when I started this thread at your request, that it would be discussion and problem solving. And I still will be happy to contribute to that, whenever I feel my contributions may be useful.
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2008, at 10:33:24
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » Dinah, posted by adelaide curtis on March 20, 2008, at 22:56:28
In my view, I'm not running away from the thread so much as setting personal boundaries.
But I recognize that your view may well differ from my own, and is just as valid to you as mine is to me.
Posted by muffled on March 21, 2008, at 11:48:07
In reply to Re: posts which have so far gone unanswered » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on March 20, 2008, at 14:12:08
Food for thot.
> 1. I don't feel that a lengthy blocks helps the posters here. In fact, I believe that a block that lasts more than a month could do more damage than good.
>
> 2. Change the math that is used to figure the blocks. I don't understand it (math is not my strong suit) and frequently wouldn't have the time to work it out, even if I could.
>
> 3. In a time of crisis, I think it would be really nice to see the deputies and the "older members" lend themselves to calming the members that are obviously very upset. . I would like to see the deputies and posters acknowledge that people who are scared, hurt and angry respond differently than they do when things are running smoothly.
>
> 4.I believe that helping people feel safe is more important than a PBC when the person isn't really very responsible for what's happening in their heart and head. Diffusing a situation shows compassion and the poster knows they have been heard.
>
> 5. I don't believe that this site can run itself. I've always believed that responsibility starts at the top.
>
> 6. This isn't aimed at any one deputy. I am not casting blame, just suggestions for the future.
>
> 7. It would be really cool if by looking at what has happened in the past few days the posters could committ to not "stirring the pot" as that is very upsetting to people who want to see a solution...not more conflict.
Posted by fayeroe on March 21, 2008, at 12:22:29
In reply to I liked this post, thanks » fayeroe, posted by muffled on March 21, 2008, at 11:48:07
I really appreciate that! I always value your posts. Very insightful, you are. :-) Pat
Posted by Toph on March 21, 2008, at 16:56:30
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on March 20, 2008, at 20:43:44
We may hear from some very angry, frustrated posters, but we'll also hear some excellent, thoughtful ideas.
>I'm hoping you didn't mean this the way it seems, twinleaf. Most of the most excellent, thoughtful ideas I've read on Babble came from angry, frustrated posters with a vested interest in this site's welfare.
Posted by twinleaf on March 21, 2008, at 17:17:02
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Toph on March 21, 2008, at 16:56:30
You're right! I was thinking of how posts would feel to Dinah if she continued to be active on this thread. But I see that I've made a spurious separation between people who are angry and people who offer useful ideas. I agree with you- the best ideas often come from people who are really p****d off.
Posted by Toph on March 21, 2008, at 17:46:08
In reply to yep...... » Toph, posted by twinleaf on March 21, 2008, at 17:17:02
If noticed when I really need to hear something from my wife, coworkers, friends and clients is when one of them is really pissed at me for some reason. : )
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2008, at 0:22:47
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » Dinah, posted by adelaide curtis on March 20, 2008, at 22:56:28
> why cant you take a "suggestion" with out feeling hurt and threaten to run away from this thread?
I know Dinah already replied, but I'd still like to ask you to rephrase that. Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others -- even deputies -- to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2008, at 2:20:18
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions » twinleaf, posted by Sigismund on March 20, 2008, at 14:41:41
Hi, everyone,
This is a great idea for a thread. We're not going to be able to do everything that's suggested, but I'm confident that we can put positive energy to good use!
I mentioned in my other post that I think responsibility and dependency are underlying issues. So I'm especially pleased that a number of suggestions address that already. Briefly, I think depending less on me would make the board less affected by my absences. But who else would posters depend on? The deputies, of course -- but also each other. I'm open to suggestions about the deputy system, but though they're here more than I am, there are still only a few of them. So I'm particularly interested in suggestions about how posters might be able to help. And how I and the deputies can facilitate that.
--
> How about something where a reader of the post is the one who identifies a post as offensive (though administration has to agree). This through a post or a button.
>
> Also, it would be nice if the poster and the offended were given some time (a day or two) to work things out through discussing the incivility, an apology or retraction.
>
> A system which involves posters policing themselves is more complicated than rigid rules, but better, IMO. It may also be too idealisic and unmanagable, sadly.
>
> TophThis is actually the direction I was moving (prematurely). Why do you think it might be too idealistic and unmanageable? Let's try to come up with a way to make it work. It does depend on posters notifying us of "fouls". Is that a responsibility posters will be reluctant to accept?
--
> 1. The question of fairness and equality in giving out PCBs and blocks. ... Possible solutions include not giving PCBs immediately, having posters who feel they have been treated badly use the notification capability, and looking more at the overall picture so as to apply any warnings or blocks evenly.
>
> twinleafThis has been a concern since before there were any deputies. IMO, the deputy system has really helped with this, now it's not just me deciding, we have a group that can discuss things. We try to monitor ourselves and each other, and to be guided by the rules and not our emotional reactions. And of course to be open to feedback.
The deputies worry about bias, too. Sometimes they won't take an administrative role in a thread in which they have a poster role.
Toph also mentioned not acting immediately. I'd prefer an apology or a retraction to a PBC or a block, too, but sometimes if we don't act right away, things escalate. So that can be hard to balance.
--
> 2. Having the deputies develop some guidelines about their responsibilities that go beyond punitive actions. Specifically, some guidelines could be developed to meet the needs of individual posters during times of high stress. I am thinking of supportive efforts towards posters who begin to feel too anxious or unsafe to post, and calming, reassuring efforts towards posters who are feeling angry, unappreciated or misunderstood here.
>
> twinleaf> 3. In a time of crisis, I think it would be really nice to see the deputies and the "older members" lend themselves to calming the members that are obviously very upset.
>
> 4.I believe that helping people feel safe is more important than a PBC when the person isn't really very responsible for what's happening in their heart and head. Diffusing a situation shows compassion and the poster knows they have been heard.
>
> 7. It would be really cool if by looking at what has happened in the past few days the posters could committ to not "stirring the pot" as that is very upsetting to people who want to see a solution...not more conflict.
>
> fayeroe> One thing that could be useful is that if someone is posting in an angry manner, that someone writes to him/her and asks in a friendly way if there is anything wrong because the posts come across as angry.
>
> SigismundThose are all great examples of ways in which posters might be able to help (if they're not already). Someone doesn't need to be a deputy -- or even an older poster -- to reach out to, support, calm, or reassure someone else, to diffuse a situation, or just not to stir the pot.
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on March 25, 2008, at 14:10:34
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2008, at 1:20:18
Reading over old posts from, I think, 2005, I was interested to note a couple of things.
Firstly, the number of people posting was very high.
Secondly, there seemed to be more tolerance for disputes. I don't suppose this made things more peaceful but there may have been fewer blocks and that may have indirectly led to less resentment.When people are blocked for expression of opinion, whether because of 'generalizing' or because a particular view is perceived to be threatening from another position, it feeds the perception that certain viewpoints are unwelcome here.
Consider the Politics Board. Some points of view (Hitler, Stalin, bin Laden, Ceauscescu) are so far beyond the pale that one can say what one likes (the truth, at any rate) without fear of offense (to any of their supporters?).
I'm not sure if you can advocate the bombing of Iran, but you can't criticize those who advocate it, and I'm not sure how you could characterize the proposal without being seen to be offensive.
Posted by Toph on March 25, 2008, at 15:36:03
In reply to Re: Suggestions and solutions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2008, at 1:20:18
> > A system which involves posters policing themselves is more complicated than rigid rules, but better, IMO. It may also be too idealisic and unmanagable, sadly.
> >
> > Toph
>
> This is actually the direction I was moving (prematurely). Why do you think it might be too idealistic and unmanageable? Let's try to come up with a way to make it work. It does depend on posters notifying us of "fouls". Is that a responsibility posters will be reluctant to accept?
>Idealistic, because it assummes that we all have the well-being of this community and each member at heart. Unmanagable because precident seems to be a valued aspect of fairness here - at least I see people comparing former decisions with subsequent ones. Consistency and equal justice under the law would appear to be sacrificed here, not by design but because some speech will be found objectionable while later similar speech may be overlooked. This is fine with me, but I can envision a lot of complaining about inconsistency.
I don't think most participants will have a problem with the responsibility of policing the site, especially if buttons allow anonymous objections. It may be tougher for moderators who may have felt that they were merely upholding a rule in a sort of impersonal way, but under the new system inarbitrating an individual's greivance it might seem that they are more personally involved when justice is more selective.
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