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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 55. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 3:35:31
Hello
I have a question regarding the following post and the civility rules:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/relate/20060920/msgs/731260.html
Well the poster is clearly telling her mother to eff off. Now, as I understand it, that is clearly offensive to her mother. Isn't it? I don't know. I'm abit perlexed as to why it didn't receive a 're-phrase' or something. Well, if a deputy or bob could kindly explain to my why it didn't, I'd be grateful.
Oh well. Perhaps I do have a problem with the rules here after all.
Meri
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2007, at 8:15:01
In reply to A civility question...., posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 3:35:31
Hi Meri. It's a recent change of rules, but you're supposed to use the "Notify the Administrators" option (below the "Reply to this Post" section when you open any given post) rather than bring up a particular post for a civility determination on Admin. I believe Dr. Bob felt that this was less likely to lead other posters to feel accused or put down.
It's still ok to ask general questions here, like "Is it ok to be uncivil to other people in our personal lives."
A general answer, however, is that posters on this board fall under the protection of the civility rules, but significant others in a poster's life do not. So it's ok to be uncivil when speaking of a relative or therapist or friend or employer in a way it wouldn't be civil if speaking of another poster. It's probably better not to use their real name, I'm guessing.
Dinah, responding as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 8:44:58
In reply to Please use the 'Notify the Administrators' button » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2007, at 8:15:01
Hi
Thanks for the reply. I don't care about the post I gave a link to per se, I was just wondering where the line fell and used it as an example. I didn't know it was okay to be uncivil toward significant others. I was under the impression we had to remain civil at all times, and to all people - otherwise the boundaries become less clear. What if those significant others are posters on this board? I know its an unlikely situation, but it could still happen.
I have to say I'm abit disappointed with this new information. I really was under the impression that we were supposed to be civil to all people (including significant others) at all times. Know wonder people get confused! I'm not saying we're not allowed to express our feelings about them, but to say, for example 'I wish my mother wouldn't intrude into my life' instead of 'eff off'.
I really wish we could change the rules to include civility toward significant others/employers etc. I feel it creates a bad atmosphere on the boards, and also, makes us look rather two-faced.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Lou PIlder on February 14, 2007, at 10:28:22
In reply to Re: Please use the 'Notify the Administrators' but » Dinah, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 8:44:58
> Hi
>
> Thanks for the reply. I don't care about the post I gave a link to per se, I was just wondering where the line fell and used it as an example. I didn't know it was okay to be uncivil toward significant others. I was under the impression we had to remain civil at all times, and to all people - otherwise the boundaries become less clear. What if those significant others are posters on this board? I know its an unlikely situation, but it could still happen.
>
> I have to say I'm abit disappointed with this new information. I really was under the impression that we were supposed to be civil to all people (including significant others) at all times. Know wonder people get confused! I'm not saying we're not allowed to express our feelings about them, but to say, for example 'I wish my mother wouldn't intrude into my life' instead of 'eff off'.
>
> I really wish we could change the rules to include civility toward significant others/employers etc. I feel it creates a bad atmosphere on the boards, and also, makes us look rather two-faced.
>
> Kind regards
>
> MeriFriends,
It is written here,[...wondering where the line fell..what if those..posted on this board..?...].
I brought this up in what IMO was a parallel situation to Dr. Hsiung and he defined what I think could be the rationale for this situation.
There was a post where a group was the recipiant of a statement that IMO put them down. Dr. Hsiung wrote that I had a rightfull objection to the statement being allowed.
Dr. Hsiung then posted a link to a table of contents to the book (or writings) of the author of the statement that was cited that was not acceptable in relation to the guidlines of the forum under leading one, or a group of people, to feel put down. The table of contents are still there and one can click in the offered link that is in the text tht goes to the table of contents of the book where the statement came from and see the uncivil statement. And there are members of the group in the statement on the forum.
This leads me to believe that {if something else is requirerd in order to see the uncivil statement,} >that is outside being directly in the text<, that the uncivil statement is allowed to remain unsanctioned. In the case here in question, the person in question is or is not seen as directly connected to the text which IMO deceides this question.
So in a sense, it could be uncivil to offer a link, let's say, that has antisemitic content because the link is {directly to the text} but, let's say, one clicks on a link that does not have uncivil content and then there is another link within the content of that link with antisemitic content, then those statements will not be notated as being uncivil. And there are other cases here concerning this policy.
I do not agree with Dr. Hsiung in his policy concerning this, but nevertheless, it is IMO the policy here. What could happen IMO under this policy is that one could have a venue here to post a link to, let's say, a supremist web site and in what comes up there is nothing uncivil. But then there could be a link to supremist doctrine in what comes up from clicking on the offered link that could have the potential IMO to put down Jews and others that are not in the group of people that make up those in the supremist' group of people. If one would like to see the links to any of the ones here of that policy, they could email me if they like.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by one woman cine on February 14, 2007, at 12:09:43
In reply to Re: Please use the 'Notify the Administrators' but » Dinah, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 8:44:58
"I really wish we could change the rules to include civility toward significant others/employers etc. I feel it creates a bad atmosphere on the boards, and also, makes us look rather two-faced. "
ironically, to call the president of the US - who has no "relationship" to anyone here something uncivil - gets you blocked.
On the politics board or faith, someone can get blocked for saying more "abstract" things is uncivil too.
But it's seems it's OK to be perfectly "uncivil" to significant others, including parents, - therapists, and coworkers.
Just go through the archives...
Doesn't seem fair.
Babble's notion of civility seems to be a very slippery slope to me.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 12:51:57
In reply to Re: Please use the 'Notify the Administrators' but, posted by one woman cine on February 14, 2007, at 12:09:43
Well yes exactly.
I mean, suppose I'm a therapist. Someone then is uncivil toward his/her therapist.
I suppose I'm a member of the green party and someone is uncivil towards the greens.
One gets a PCB and the other doesn't - that doesn't really seem fair does it?
Seriously, if we are to have civility rules they should be enforced with equality to all situations, parties etc! Surely!?
Posted by madeline on February 14, 2007, at 13:57:33
In reply to Re: Please use the 'Notify the Administrators' but » Dinah, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 8:44:58
I always thought the civility rules were designed to protect the people here at babble from insult.
For instance, if one posted something negative about George Bush, then it is likely that some Bush supporters here at Babble would be insulted.
However, if someone posted something negative about their therapist, it is unlikely that anyone here at Babble would feel offended since it is unlikely that anyone here supports or even knows the therapist.
I always thought I could say something nasty about my mom (who isn't a poster here), but I couldn't say something nasty about someone who posts here.
Maybe I am wrong in interpreting the rules that way, but that's how I understand them.
Maddie
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2007, at 17:35:05
In reply to Re: Please use the 'Notify the Administrators' but, posted by madeline on February 14, 2007, at 13:57:33
That's my understanding as well.
Also, probably someone couldn't say anything insulting about *all* therapists or *all* pdocs or *all* lawyers, etc. because it would be likely that they would be represented here. Dr. Bob probably wouldn't like it if you gave your therapist's full name either, when insulting him.
But no one really knows who we are, much less who our therapists are, so even if we happened to be sharing some, no one would know.
It wouldn't seem very helpful on a mental health board not to allow us to vent about bosses, parents, spouses, therapists, etc. But if Dr. Bob ever makes that rule, I'll worry about it then.
(Incidentally, I was a heavy campaigner after the 2004 election for what eventually became the politics board rules. And while I might not agree with every offshoot of the basic philosophy behind the rules, and I may not agree with every application of those rules, I very much agree with the spirit of them.)
Posted by one woman cine on February 14, 2007, at 18:52:28
In reply to Re: Please use the 'Notify the Administrators' but » madeline, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2007, at 17:35:05
yes, I understand the tenets of this - no one on babble should feel offended or insulted.
"Also, probably someone couldn't say anything insulting about *all* therapists or *all* pdocs or *all* lawyers, etc. because it would be likely that they would be represented here."
But this very thing has happened .... the use of the word *all* has not been necessary - generalizing is all that is needed in some cases.
& nothing is done.
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2007, at 19:30:04
In reply to yes and no » Dinah, posted by one woman cine on February 14, 2007, at 18:52:28
Not everything gets caught, and sometimes the reading of the same post by different people leads to different interpretations of whether a) a generalization has been made and b) whether it is insulting.
Babble's not perfect. Nothing is. And some things really can't be eliminated by rules. But I appreciate that Dr. Bob (and the deputies for that matter) try his/their best.
Posted by Deneb on February 14, 2007, at 20:58:51
In reply to A civility question...., posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 3:35:31
I'm sorry I wrote "F*ck off" to my Mom. I was angry at her for caring too much about me. I don't want her to worry about me all the time. It makes me feel guilty.
I kinda feel accused.
I Love my Mom.
Deneb*
Posted by fayeroe on February 14, 2007, at 22:40:55
In reply to Re: A civility question...., posted by Deneb on February 14, 2007, at 20:58:51
what was your question?
Posted by Honore on February 15, 2007, at 0:19:55
In reply to Re: A civility question.... » Deneb, posted by fayeroe on February 14, 2007, at 22:40:55
Deneb was using the header of the post to which she was responding, not herself asking a question.
The original post in this thread cited something Deneb wrote, and Deneb was responding to that post, which was called "A Civility Question."
Honore
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 15, 2007, at 0:56:56
In reply to Re: A civility question...., posted by Deneb on February 14, 2007, at 20:58:51
How can we have one set of civility rules for one set of people, and another for another set of people?????????
In my mind, it is much more uncivil to curse your mother than it is a politician - the opposite is true here, which is just plain crazy.
Really, doesn't that just send alot of mixed messages to everyone?
Can't we have a blanket civility rule whereby we have to be polite to everyone?
Wouldn't this then be much clearer to everyone, clearer for those who police these boards, clearer for us posters?
And, people from this board are far from anonymous. Tensor, for instance, lives quite close to me. Suppose we go to the same hospital, and see the same psychiatric team. He hates them and doesn't feel afraid to say it here on babble in an uncivil way. I love them and feel hurt when he does that......
I really think that we should try to be civil to all groups of people at all times!
Posted by Declan on February 15, 2007, at 2:08:41
In reply to Well. This is all just crazy!, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 15, 2007, at 0:56:56
Hey Merri
You're not going to suggest we shouldn't be able to run ourselves down next are you?
We need to be able to put the boot in to someone.
How's the weather?
Declan
Posted by madeline on February 15, 2007, at 7:10:25
In reply to Well. This is all just crazy!, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 15, 2007, at 0:56:56
There are times when I need to say that I hate my furniture, my boss, the weather, my therapist etc...
It can be very helpful just to vent and I usually get of insight from posters about the way I feel.Sometimes this is the only place where I get that.
However, I do see your point. I have read posts that just dripped venom and that marked expression of anger can be very triggering.
So perhaps when someone needs to vent about something in their life a "vent warning" might be in order as a courtesy, not a requirement, to other posters?
We do that for other triggers, so maybe in this case it is a reasonable request.
Thinking back, most people already say "I need to vent" or "rant follows" when they do post.
But we can always do better.
Posted by Quintal on February 15, 2007, at 10:39:15
In reply to Re: Well. This is all just crazy! » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Declan on February 15, 2007, at 2:08:41
>We need to be able to put the boot in to someone.
I thought that was one of the primal urges the civility guidelines were designed to curb.
Q
Posted by one woman cine on February 15, 2007, at 10:57:59
In reply to Re: Well. This is all just crazy!, posted by madeline on February 15, 2007, at 7:10:25
"There are times when I need to say that I hate my furniture, my boss, the weather, my therapist etc...
It can be very helpful just to vent and I usually get of insight from posters about the way I feel.Sometimes this is the only place where I get that."
I see what your saying too - sometimes its easier to vent on babble because of the anonymity -
& I do think there is a difference venting between objects/weather etc. than venting against a person/group of people.
However, babble FAQ also says that it's not necessarily civil to say something, although it might be therapeutic IRL.
Honesty is not held in the same regard as civility - so the same would apply for a rant/vent. You may need to say it, it may be true - you might feel better after saying it - but it falls outside of babble civility guidelines.
& for me, it's a conundrum - the only mitigating factor is a person on babble "might be offended" -but no one has a rule book as to what might offend any particular poster - no one is a mind reader - so the guidelines are extremely interpretative, in my opinion.
& yes, some posts do drip venom and hostility, even with a trigger - I do not understand why not even a "re-phrase" is not usually called for.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 15, 2007, at 12:38:54
In reply to civility versus honesty, including rants/vents » madeline, posted by one woman cine on February 15, 2007, at 10:57:59
I'm not saying we can't vent/rant about stuff, just we do it in a civil way.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 15, 2007, at 12:41:55
In reply to Re: Well. This is all just crazy! » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Declan on February 15, 2007, at 2:08:41
I suppose....(about the boot thing). Yeah. But that doesn't mean we need to swear blind about it.
Well perhaps I'm quite mild mannered IRL, so civility things come naturally to me.
Can you pass the sugar please?
Yes, the weather has been postively tropical of late. Its only been -2C today, and believe me, that feels warm after the temperatures we've had!
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by one woman cine on February 15, 2007, at 13:02:45
In reply to Well...., posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 15, 2007, at 12:38:54
I dunno, sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Posted by Deneb on February 15, 2007, at 13:03:50
In reply to Re: Well. This is all just crazy! » Declan, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 15, 2007, at 12:41:55
Does anyone care that I feel accused in this thread?
I feel like I deserve an apology
Deneb*
Posted by one woman cine on February 15, 2007, at 13:25:53
In reply to Re: Well. This is all just crazy!, posted by Deneb on February 15, 2007, at 13:03:50
Posted by one woman cine on February 15, 2007, at 13:28:57
In reply to Re: Well. This is all just crazy!, posted by Deneb on February 15, 2007, at 13:03:50
I feel it's unfair for you to demand an apology, especially given the nature of some of your distressing posts.
Do you care that people have repeatedly told you they uncomfortable and afraid for you?
Posted by one woman cine on February 15, 2007, at 13:34:24
In reply to + Deneb - » Deneb, posted by one woman cine on February 15, 2007, at 13:28:57
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