![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jlynne on September 22, 2006, at 19:08:11
I, personally, have never even received a pbc on this site, but I can certainly understand the rejection one must feel when they get blocked. This is a mental health community – haven’t most of us here felt the sting of being socially ostracized? Is ostracization really the answer? Our illnesses sometimes prevent some of us from being able to relate well with the rest of the world . . . that is why some of us come here. I would like this site to be “safe” for everyone here . . . not just for the politically correct. IMO people can take offense at anything they choose – the operative word here being “choose”. I understand that this is your website, Dr. Bob, but perhaps it is time to reconsider the effects of being blocked on a person who may already be suffering from social ostracization? IMO blocking a poster might tend to reinforce that person’s general feelings of being “unacceptable”. Perhaps, instead of blocking or pbc’ing people, the deputies could take the time to paraphrase an offensive post using “appropriate” wording and present it to the poster? Some have called this “mirroring” and it could actually be very constructive; it might even promote “dialogue” (an interesting concept, eh?). I could find some of the responses to some of the pbc'd/blocked posters to be very offensive, personally, but those posters have a right to their opinions – I would never suggest a pbc; I choose not to be offended. (Who of us can honestly say that we have never lost our cool?) We can’t control how others behave/think/feel, but we CAN control how WE react, including the decision to NOT react. Does responding with humiliation and rejection foster growth and understanding, or does it just perpetuate the cycle of misunderstanding? Would love and acceptance perhaps be a better choice? IMO pbc's and blocks do not really create “safety”, they just help create the illusion of “control” in our lives. If I have offended anyone with these words, please take the time to enter into a dialogue with me; I would hate to receive my first pbc for promoting the concept of love and acceptance.
Posted by Racer on September 22, 2006, at 21:00:52
In reply to In My Opinion, posted by jlynne on September 22, 2006, at 19:08:11
I agree with much that you've written, but I do not share your conclusion.
I don't see PBCs and blocks as being punishment imposed, so much as consequences of someone's actions. I don't see blocks as being analogous to exile, so much as analogous to a time-out period for a young child. And I do think that consequences are a good thing.
That doesn't mean that I agree with all the PBCs and blocks I see. There are times I disagree rather strongly with those decisions, however I also believe that they are applications of the rules of this site. If I don't agree with the rule, better to address that here, in a civil fashion, than break it because I don't agree with it.
The bottom line for me, though, is that we are a community of people who are sometimes fragile. I'd rather protect some of the more vulnerable here by blocking those whose behavior may trigger them.
I thank you for the chance for a dialog.
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2006, at 22:26:48
In reply to In My Opinion, posted by jlynne on September 22, 2006, at 19:08:11
Friends,
It is written here,[...if I have offended anyone..enter into a dialog with me...].
Well, I am not offended but could enter into dialog if anyone wishes.
You see, there are different types of administrations to communities throughout history. The development of administrative types has been recorded.
I propose a radically different type of administration for a mental health community. It would be spiritually based, but not religiously based.There would be no blocking.
If anyone is further interested in my concept of the administration of a mental health community, they could email me if they like or post here.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by jlynne on September 22, 2006, at 23:57:38
In reply to Dissenting viewpoint » jlynne, posted by Racer on September 22, 2006, at 21:00:52
Racer, thank you for responding to my post; I appreciate your input. Although we disagree, it is good that we can discuss this topic; it helps me to understand where you are coming from and why you feel the way you do. I would like to address two of the comments you made in your reply:
>>I don't see blocks as being analogous to exile, so much as analogous to a time-out period for a young child.
IMO the “parent-child” attitude may be one of the main issues I have here. If we continue viewing this site from the “parent-child” position, we may be promoting others to posture themselves accordingly. The parent-child relationship has deep-seated emotional power – notice how many of us revert when dealing with our parents. I, personally, am struggling daily to let go of my “parent-child” view of the world. When I am in “parent-child” mode, I tend to enter into power struggles with whomever I am trying to relate. The time-out concept is no longer accepted as widely as it once was; it is being replaced with the concept of acknowledging/validating feelings and suggesting more appropriate means of expressing those feelings.My goal is to grow and learn how to not play roles; to take people as they are and to accept their differences. I think it would be healthier for us to learn how to cope with our own emotions, rather than to rely on a “parent” to intervene for us.
>>I'd rather protect some of the more vulnerable here by blocking those whose behavior may trigger them.
Who is to say who is “more vulnerable”?? Weren’t the people who were blocked also responding to some sort of triggers? Are some people’s triggers more important than others’?
Again, thank you for responding:)
Posted by jlynne on September 23, 2006, at 0:27:21
In reply to Lou's response to jlynne'spost, posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2006, at 22:26:48
Lou, I appreciate your frustration; finding support is sometimes very difficult for some of us. I am not sure that leaving Babble is the answer, however. If what you are seeking is acceptance/tolerance, creating a new site does not guarantee that. You are building relationships on Babble, no matter how uncomfortable it may seem at times. You are part of this community, and if you leave, it will be our loss. I will email you my email address, and if you get blocked again, you can call on me for support until you are unblocked again, ok? (my husband says it is okay;)
>>>jlynne
Posted by Dinah on September 23, 2006, at 9:41:32
In reply to Lou's response to jlynne'spost, posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2006, at 22:26:48
Do you mean here on Babble, or are you proposing starting a new site?
Posted by Dinah on September 23, 2006, at 9:48:11
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint » Racer, posted by jlynne on September 22, 2006, at 23:57:38
It's not just a parental concept. No matter where you go, you're expected to abide by the rules of the place you are. From work, where the rules might be complex and even unspoken, to the gas station where the rules might be to wear shoes and a shirt and not to rob the place and to pay for your gas.
The difference with Babble is that the consequences are limited in term. They're also clearly specified, although I do believe they should be added to the registration process so there are no surprises.
Why should Babble be different from most places in the world?
Posted by notfred on September 23, 2006, at 12:18:48
In reply to In My Opinion, posted by jlynne on September 22, 2006, at 19:08:11
We can’t control how others behave/think/feel, but we CAN control how WE react, including the decision to NOT react. Does responding with humiliation and rejection foster growth and understanding, or does it just perpetuate the cycle of misunderstanding?
The blocks clearly say they are not intended to
punish nor do they indicate someone is a bad person.
As you say "we CAN control how WE react". It is a persons choice to feel humiliation and rejection.
If they do, keep in mind a block does not come out of thin air. Their behaviors are pointed out, warnings are given. If they choose to ignore the PBC there are consequences to these behaviors.
haven’t most of us here felt the sting of being socially ostracized? Is ostracization really the answer?
Hmmm, it seems to me people can and do get ostracized, due to their negative behaviors, quite often IRL.
Posted by yxibow on September 23, 2006, at 14:21:42
In reply to Re: In My Opinion, posted by notfred on September 23, 2006, at 12:18:48
I think, and this is probably for the admin board, but when I start seeing series of PBCs/blocks for people I know on this board, I just don't return for a while. I don't want to be caught up in what sometimes seems on the verge of political correctness about the minutae of possibly offending someone. As they say, you can't please all the people all the time.
This is different than spouting all the 4 letter words directed solely at one person, that is inappropriate behaviour, although it occurs in real life, and yes, there are consequences of doing so in real life but I think also sometimes those are not in proportion to reality.
I think a variety of decisions are arbitrary (no deputy's names mentioned) and even capricious at times and I've oft argued how you can be a "deputy", a "patient", and a "caregiver" at the same time, its a conflict of interest.
At any rate, my 2c, I think that sums how I've seen this board go over time.
Posted by notfred on September 23, 2006, at 14:49:20
In reply to Re: In My Opinion » notfred, posted by yxibow on September 23, 2006, at 14:21:42
> I've oft argued how you can be a "deputy", a >"patient", and a "caregiver" at the same time, its >a conflict of interest.
>
That is the way it is done other MI boards I have seen & it seems to work elsewhere.
Posted by tizza on September 23, 2006, at 16:24:37
In reply to Re: In My Opinion, posted by notfred on September 23, 2006, at 14:49:20
To break it down to absolute basics, if you do the crime you do the time, rules are rules reguardless of where you are. Almost every place/situation has basic rules and if you step over the line someone will say something or act accordingly to what has transpired. This is a place where most people are highly sensitive and if someone unleashes a tirade which is directed at someone or a group of people it generally causes great distress to those involved because babble is generally a safe haven, with polite civil communication. Lets keep it that way. Paul
Posted by tizza on September 23, 2006, at 16:29:09
In reply to Re: In My Opinion, posted by tizza on September 23, 2006, at 16:24:37
I forgot to mention that I have seen a handful of PBC and maybe one block that has baffeled me but I'm sure the intentions for this were justified by the rules. Paul
Posted by henrietta on September 23, 2006, at 19:45:44
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint » jlynne, posted by Dinah on September 23, 2006, at 9:48:11
i may, of course, be wrong, as always, but i thought jlynne was referring to the "time out" concept racer introuduced . this is definitely a child/parent interaction. when was the last time the maitre' d in a restaurant,the gas station attentdant, or your boss asked you to stand in a corner because you've said a naughty word, or have used sarcasm?
Posted by henrietta on September 23, 2006, at 20:07:56
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint, posted by henrietta on September 23, 2006, at 19:45:44
why should babble be different from the rest of the world? the question i've been asking myself for years. what's "safe?" the world ain't safe. the illusion that this is any kind of relection of the real world is......? ?
just my personal opinion, mais oui. i could, of course, be hugely misguided.
Posted by Jost on September 23, 2006, at 23:37:29
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint, posted by henrietta on September 23, 2006, at 19:45:44
Or I suggested to a salewoman in a fancy boutique, who decided to ignore me,overtly, while covertly watching me out of the corner of her eye--
because her behavior had a tendency to make people feel bad (not that I thought she was a bad person).
Maybe I'll tell the next one to PBC-- compliments of Bob.
Jost
Posted by Jost on September 24, 2006, at 15:32:45
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint » henrietta, posted by Jost on September 23, 2006, at 23:37:29
Oops. Didn't realize I was on Admin Board, for some reason, though I was on Social Board.. Maybe because last night, I was having some distracting symptoms.
Sorry.
Jost
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 24, 2006, at 21:43:40
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint » Racer, posted by jlynne on September 22, 2006, at 23:57:38
> I can certainly understand the rejection one must feel when they get blocked. ... IMO blocking a poster might tend to reinforce that person’s general feelings of being “unacceptable”. Perhaps ... the deputies could take the time to paraphrase an offensive post using “appropriate” wording and present it to the poster? ... We can’t control how others behave/think/feel, but we CAN control how WE react, including the decision to NOT react. ... Would love and acceptance perhaps be a better choice? IMO pbc's and blocks do not really create “safety”, they just help create the illusion of “control” in our lives.
> IMO the “parent-child” attitude may be one of the main issues I have here. ... The parent-child relationship has deep-seated emotional power – notice how many of us revert when dealing with our parents. ... The time-out concept is no longer accepted as widely as it once was; it is being replaced with the concept of acknowledging/validating feelings and suggesting more appropriate means of expressing those feelings.
>
> My goal is to grow and learn how to not play roles ... I think it would be healthier for us to learn how to cope with our own emotions, rather than to rely on a “parent” to intervene for us.Thanks for trying to make things better here. I understand that people can feel rejected when they're blocked, and that that can add to other rejections in the present or the past.
I do think it can be important to try to control how one reacts -- or doesn't. No one's ever been blocked for not reacting, and not reacting may also help keep one from slipping into roles, lead to growth, and make outside intervention unnecessary.
If people are interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, they're welcome to discuss that here, either after they're blocked or, ideally, before. They can also ask other posters to preview their posts before they submit them.
Blocks don't make it completely safe here, but IMO they do have some effect, that's not just an illusion. I could be better at validating feelings, but the wish for love and acceptance can also be part of a deep-seated "parent-child attitude".
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:38
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint, posted by Dr. Bob on September 24, 2006, at 21:43:40
> No one's ever been blocked for not reacting, and not reacting may also help keep one from slipping into roles, lead to growth, and make outside intervention unnecessary.
But sometimes people get blocked even when they aren't reacting. Or do you mean to say 'responding' rather than 'reacting'. Abstinence is the only safe option etc etc.
> Blocks don't make it completely safe here, but IMO they do have some effect, that's not just an illusion.
Some blocks might also make things less safe here.
Posted by muffled on September 25, 2006, at 12:08:19
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint, posted by Dr. Bob on September 24, 2006, at 21:43:40
Thanks for trying to make things better here. I understand that people can feel rejected when they're blocked, and that that can add to other rejections in the present or the past.
***for me, the blocks came early on, before I truly understood the 'rules'. For me the blocks were shocking and shameful, and unexpected, and all the more hurtful for that. I carry scars from my blocks, internally and externally. Some of my blocks I think were uneccessary. However, I think things have improved in that way. More warnings and less outright blocks....
I do think it can be important to try to control how one reacts -- or doesn't. No one's ever been blocked for not reacting, and not reacting may also help keep one from slipping into roles, lead to growth, and make outside intervention unnecessary.
***Yes, I proly have learned from my blocks....
My children would learn to be more careful too if I punched them when they did wrong...
However, again I say, I think things have improved in that way.If people are interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, they're welcome to discuss that here, either after they're blocked or, ideally, before. They can also ask other posters to preview their posts before they submit them.
***I feel stupid doing that, but thats just me. I hate asking for stuff..
Blocks don't make it completely safe here, but IMO they do have some effect, that's not just an illusion. I could be better at validating feelings, but the wish for love and acceptance can also be part of a deep-seated "parent-child attitude".
***Blocks are a part of the danger here....
I once bypassed the word f*rt...I didn't think it would matter, its not a bad word.....
Still hurts....
:-(
So that being said, I think this site has a lot of challenges but I also think its getting better.
So thanks to all for your work.
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 29, 2006, at 1:16:21
In reply to Re: Dissenting viewpoint, posted by muffled on September 25, 2006, at 12:08:19
> sometimes people get blocked even when they aren't reacting. Or do you mean to say 'responding' rather than 'reacting'. Abstinence is the only safe option etc etc.
>
> Some blocks might also make things less safe here.
>
> alexandra_k> for me, the blocks came early on, before I truly understood the 'rules'. For me the blocks were shocking and shameful, and unexpected, and all the more hurtful for that. I carry scars from my blocks, internally and externally. Some of my blocks I think were uneccessary. However, I think things have improved in that way. More warnings and less outright blocks....
>
> Yes, I proly have learned from my blocks....
> My children would learn to be more careful too if I punched them when they did wrong...
> However, again I say, I think things have improved in that way.
>
> Blocks are a part of the danger here....
> I once bypassed the word f*rt...I didn't think it would matter, its not a bad word.....
> Still hurts....
> :-(
> So that being said, I think this site has a lot of challenges but I also think its getting better.
> So thanks to all for your work.
> MuffledI know blocking is far from a perfect system, and I'm sorry I've added to your scars, and your hurt. But I'm glad you've stuck around, it helps to have your feedback.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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