![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 6, 2006, at 7:39:08
The bare bones issue that has revealed itself to me is that rose coloured glasses prevail. So long as the focus is on what's supposed to happen instead of on what really happens, nothing will change. And procrastination has made it a big Bob errr job to fix it.
Civility is in never splitting hairs. Civility is also about timeliness of action. But the existing blocking system has so upped the stakes that the individual words of the criteria themselves have become the focus. And management of the site has overwhelmed the owner's time resources. Unintended consequences, and inexcusable delay.
I feel tired. I feel spent. If it matters, let other voices carry. This one relinquishes the floor.
Lar
Posted by AuntieMel on May 6, 2006, at 14:07:10
In reply to I'm weary of this, posted by Larry Hoover on May 6, 2006, at 7:39:08
Take what you need and leave the rest.
There is much here for you and JYL to take, and even more for you to give.
Please do not let this ruin the good for you.
Posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 22:58:45
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » Larry Hoover, posted by AuntieMel on May 6, 2006, at 14:07:10
> Take what you need and leave the rest.
> There is much here for you and JYL to take, and even more for you to give.
> Please do not let this ruin the good for you.It is so hard... It is so hard...
I've been learning about how fickle people can be. I think it is okay to say that because I've said it before and didn't get a warning for that. But I've also learned that that is completely irrelevant so who the f*ck knows. But people are fickle. If you go around offering support then people like you and post to you and seek you out. If you go through a hard patch... Well just watch people start avoiding your posts. Of course I do understand that sometimes it can be hard to know what to say to people. Of course I do understand that sometimes it can be hard to read when the poster is in a bad place. But what I have learned is that that simply isn't tolerated after a while. Get into a bad place... And as it stretches out... As you aren't in the place to help smooth others along... Well just watch the people split. Vanish. Ultimately turn against you.Some people don't really offer all that much to others. They post about themselves... They keep asking the same old questions posting about the same old issues. And people keep on responding.
But what are people trying to do to me. People want a_k back. Well what was a_k to you and how was special different?
F*CK YOU
THIS PLACE DOESN'T HELP
IT F*CKING DOESN'T
IT REMINDS ME OF WHY IT IS THAT PEOPLE REALLY AREN'T VERY F*CKING NICE THINGS AT ALL
AND ONE IS SO VERY MUCH BETTER JUST KEEPING THE F*CK AWAY FROM THEM
AND AT LEAST PEOPLE IRL DON'T PRETEND TO CARE
FOR A TIME
FOR A WHILE
SO LONG AS ONE TALKS ABOUT THEM
ABOUT THEIR ISSUES
WELL F*CK THIS
IT ISN'T HELPING
AND PEOPLE WAIT TILL I'M HAVING A HARD TIME TO TURN
BUT THEN THAT IS ALWAYS THE WAY IT IS
F*CK THAT>
Posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:06:15
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 22:58:45
yeah well 6 weeks now no doubt
f*ck this
i don't wanna play anymore
people don't play nice
they don't
and neither does bobif i hadn't emailed you...
well you don't f*cking care eh?
where did little jimmy go bob?you don't give a f*ck
i don't know why you say you do
because you don't
you don't care how many people leave
hurt
go f*cking crazy
hurt themselves
hurt others
because of epiphenomenal hurts arising from your f*cking idiosyncratic interpretation of rules that fairly much exist in your headand it does come back to the benefit of the doubt...
you ask us to be charitable to you
to believe you are doing your bestand you don't return that
you don't give us the benefit of the doubt
whether we are doing our best or not is considered simply irrelevantwell f*ck you
you said it might well be asking too much...
and you are right
it is asking too much
IT IS NOT FAIR FOR YOU TO ASK THAT OF US WHEN YOU DO NOT RETURN THE FAVOUR
it is asking too much
and the more you hurt the more i realise
that one shouldn't trust you
'cause you aren't trustworthy
and i'm not allowed to say people are in the grip of transference...
but f*ck peoplebut oh yeah
endless support...
and what do you know benefit of the doubt after all
well sorry i couldn't meet your f*cking expectations
grovel
for the rest of my life
f*ck that.
you can have this back now thanks
i don't like the noise it makes...
Posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 1:03:37
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 22:58:45
I know I should go f*ck myself, but before I do, I just want to say your post is so f*cking TRUE it hurts.
Most of the babble "relationships" with the endearing little hugs and confessions of undying love, are NOT REAL. One misstep, one typo, and the "friendship" evaporates.
Sometimes I feel like a stand-up comic trying to keep the audience from leaving. If I'm not funny, entertaining, positive, helpful, educational, caring, or nice enough, they will leave.
Perhaps, the constraints of "civility" - this dance where one can smoothly cloak hate with civility and yet be blocked for less than smooth caring - encourages unrealness and disconnectedness. So it's about being SMOOTH not real.
We had our problems but at least I didn't pretend to like you - not that I disliked you. I just didn't share your passion about certain topics, so I gave you a wide berth. Perhaps, it was a case of two polarized paradigms with no way to connect. (I'm so full of it)
No hard feelings. I sort of like you now - for what it's worth - since I don't know either of us. Sorry I was a jerk when you were going through rough times. I seem fair-weather, but I was in the storm myself.
I'm tired and think it's time for me to go f*ck myself now.
Verne
Posted by Declan on May 7, 2006, at 1:13:07
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:06:15
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 1:18:47
In reply to F*cking Right On » Estella, posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 1:03:37
i did some looking through the archived...
we used to post a bit to each other...
i used to worry about you a lot
cause you didn't think babble friendships were real
and cause you didn't feel like you fitted in here
and i wanted better for you
i wanted you to feel cared about
and i think i tried
but i was also on this f*cking hobbyhorse of trying to make sense of bob
and going off when people weren't being the nicest
and that alienated me from lots of babblers
and i didn't care...
i didn't care...
and now... i don't support bob anymore and what do you know
that alienated me from lots of babblers
and i didn't care...
i don't care.
it is crazy.
i am f*cking selfish
everyone is though
so i say lets cut through the b*llshit
and admit it
instead of patting ourselves on the back for the caring
'cause it comes with such restrictions...
i'll demonstrate caring for you so long as you tow the line...
yeah whatever.
i'm sorry we got to a bad place with each other
really
i hate it when that happens :-(
:-(
and i'm not just talking
but i liked you
you made me laugh
and i felt sad you didn't feel you fit in
'cause i know what that feels like
and i wish nobody had to feel like that
though i'm too selfish to do much in the way of trying to ensure it doesn't happen
haven't posted to the newbies for ages...> Most of the babble "relationships" with the endearing little hugs and confessions of undying love, are NOT REAL. One misstep, one typo, and the "friendship" evaporates.
yeah.
one little critique of an ideal and you buy yourself 2 weeks in isolation
> Sometimes I feel like a stand-up comic trying to keep the audience from leaving. If I'm not funny, entertaining, positive, helpful, educational, caring, or nice enough, they will leave.i understand the fear.
thats what happens in blocks...
people forget you> Perhaps, the constraints of "civility" - this dance where one can smoothly cloak hate with civility and yet be blocked for less than smooth caring - encourages unrealness and disconnectedness. So it's about being SMOOTH not real.
yeah. as z has noticed...
> We had our problems but at least I didn't pretend to like you - not that I disliked you. I just didn't share your passion about certain topics, so I gave you a wide berth. Perhaps, it was a case of two polarized paradigms with no way to connect. (I'm so full of it)
oh. yeah that sounds right. i'm sorry about that.
> No hard feelings. I sort of like you now - for what it's worth - since I don't know either of us. Sorry I was a jerk when you were going through rough times. I seem fair-weather, but I was in the storm myself.heh heh. er yeah. i understand.
peace.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 3:52:35
In reply to F*cking Right On » Estella, posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 1:03:37
> Most of the babble "relationships" with the endearing little hugs and confessions of undying love, are NOT REAL. One misstep, one typo, and the "friendship" evaporates.
I don't recall seeing all that many confessions of undying love on Babble. Am I missing something? Most of my Babbling is done on the board, with very few people I email with. Perhaps that makes a difference.
There are a few posters that I am in off board contact with, and who I hope to always be a part of my life, no matter what happens with Babble.
But I've been at Babble too long to expect that people, no matter how much I like them, will stay here forever.
I like to think that one misstep, one typo, and clarification will be requested and the relationship maintained. I like to think that. I know from personal experience that that isn't always so, and it saddens me.
To my eyes, and I may be wrong, cyberhugs between people who are not otherwise intimate are mainly a desire in the moment to reach out to someone and give comfort and support, but are not usually a confession of undying love, or a commitment of forever friendship or even forever support. And, for that purpose, they are very real and very much valued - by me at least.
Posted by zeugma on May 7, 2006, at 8:10:14
In reply to Re: F*cking Right On » verne, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 3:52:35
I don't recall seeing all that many confessions of undying love on Babble. Am I missing something? >>
no. i don't think so. there are a few though which are real.
Most of my Babbling is done on the board, with very few people I email with. Perhaps that makes a difference.>>
i don't *think* that is the difference (though of course i have no idea who babblemails whom). it's a matter of temperaments.
my own temperament is highly cynical, cynical enough to try to shove my own biases out of the way on occasion because i see that they interfere with whatever ends i wish to pursue (for example, understanding those with utterly different belief systems).
IRL this has been seen as disheartening disloyalty.
but i do have to live with myself at the end of the day. anyway. trust is not something i give lightly, but then the compensating virtue (i suppose) is that i am seldom disappointed.
i should have wiped this message away, but one reaches a point.
(((((Estella)))))
these blocks are hell on you-z
Posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 9:28:58
In reply to Re: F*cking Right On » verne, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 3:52:35
Dinah,
You're right, there aren't that many expressions of love and devotion. But I've seen too many online relationships evolve into a *friendship* that didn't last. The foundation was weak.
I just don't value cyberhugs and expressions of concern, care, or, even love, when, as soon as one side experiences some rough weather, they quickly drift apart. I've seen, "I love you so much" turn into complete indifference overnight. If the same people leave Babble for good, they are quickly forgotten.
There are so many back channels here at Babble. So much between and behind the lines. People form alliances and defend each other from others but never really develop true friendships. Loyalties change, new alliances form - kinda like the reality show "Survivor". The goal becomes winning at Babble. This is a game about POWER and WINNING not support.
There are many ways to WIN.
Zeugma talked about damning with "faint praise". The fist hidden beneath the velvet glove may be employed in many ways. Sometimes attacks aren't that obvious.
For example, if an outsider is found to be threatening to a group, others will lavish so much praise on each other, the "intruder" is silenced, her posts drowned out. I mean, the gang will turn the thread into a mutual lovefest to exclude, isolate, and quietly, but civily, destroy the unwelcome interloper. And later when the other is blocked or leaves in frustration, they remain blameless - "What did we do?"
"What did they do?" They played the game well.
I'm sure you've noticed how many civil posts are carefully crafted, within the civility guidelines, to provoke a fight with someone - to tork them off. How is this possible in the context of support and civility? Being smooth with the rules is rewarded, awkward support isn't.
Those in power (who win) are adept at exploiting the weaknesses in the Babble system, at masking their hostility towards others with *smooth* civility. They use the civility guidelines to their advantage and entice the *other* guy into a civility mistake and losing the game.
I gotta catch the first boat outta here and get offa Survivor Island.
Verne
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 7, 2006, at 10:04:53
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:06:15
> you ask us to be charitable to you
> to believe you are doing your best
>
> and you don't return that
>
> you don't give us the benefit of the doubt
> whether we are doing our best or not is considered simply irrelevant
>
> well f*ck youHear! Hear!
Judgment is never a substitute for guidance.
Lar
Posted by zazenduck on May 7, 2006, at 12:30:31
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 22:58:45
it's an unending cycle of suffering ......
it's sad
what do you really want?
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 15:14:02
In reply to Undying Love » Dinah, posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 9:28:58
> I just don't value cyberhugs and expressions of concern, care, or, even love, when, as soon as one side experiences some rough weather, they quickly drift apart. I've seen, "I love you so much" turn into complete indifference overnight. If the same people leave Babble for good, they are quickly forgotten.
Self preservation, Verne. At first every person who moved on from Babble left a giant hole in my heart. There are so many I cared about who left one way or another. If I didn't guard that heart, there'd be nothing left of it. Because most people come and go at Babble. But do I miss Ted and Dreamer and Noa and Trouble and any number of other posters who post no more (at least not that I know of)? Of course. The people they knew might move on as well, but those who knew and care about them will always remember.
>
> There are so many back channels here at Babble. So much between and behind the lines. People form alliances and defend each other from others but never really develop true friendships. Loyalties change, new alliances form - kinda like the reality show "Survivor". The goal becomes winning at Babble. This is a game about POWER and WINNING not support.I don't see it that way. I know a lot of people have a lot of off board contact. I have very little, actually. I sort of am a bit envious sometimes. But I also recognize that I'm a lousy correspondent.
>
> There are many ways to WIN.
>
> Zeugma talked about damning with "faint praise". The fist hidden beneath the velvet glove may be employed in many ways. Sometimes attacks aren't that obvious.
>
> For example, if an outsider is found to be threatening to a group, others will lavish so much praise on each other, the "intruder" is silenced, her posts drowned out. I mean, the gang will turn the thread into a mutual lovefest to exclude, isolate, and quietly, but civily, destroy the unwelcome interloper. And later when the other is blocked or leaves in frustration, they remain blameless - "What did we do?"I'm not saying this doesn't happen. I think it's human nature to be protective of people we know. But as you've probably seen, it often just takes a bit of getting to know the other person and it evens out. I could give you several examples, but I've found that that's not usually very helpful, as in fact what I'm writing right now is rarely helpful. One of my personal Babble goals is to learn to accept that I can't always or even often be helpful. And that my most earnest attempts not infrequently leave things worse rather than better.
> I'm sure you've noticed how many civil posts are carefully crafted, within the civility guidelines, to provoke a fight with someone - to tork them off. How is this possible in the context of support and civility? Being smooth with the rules is rewarded, awkward support isn't.
I don't really see that all that often. Certainly I see it sometimes. I think I've seen everything sometimes. But I also know that I've been accused of it when I wasn't trying to express my uncivil feelings civilly at all. I tend to (at least in this stage of my Babble life) walk away. So I tend to, whenever at all possible, to interpret other people's posts with that in mind. That sometimes a banana is just a banana.
Posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 16:50:14
In reply to Re: Undying Love, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 15:14:02
Dinah,
I just wanted to make sure you knew that I'm questioning the greater mechanics or *cosmology* of Babble and not you in particular.
You've never been anything but a class act in my book. Me, on the other hand - sometimes, I think I just like to butt heads. For all my talk against arguing of any kind, I think *I'm* the one loaded for bear, spoiling for trouble.
I've accused others of playing "king of the hill" yet in the end, perhaps, I'm the only one on the hill, which isn't really a hill afterall, more a slight mound or hole really. I'm just a lone and lonely goat up to my neck in my *hill*.
Verne
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 16:54:23
In reply to Re: Undying Love » Dinah, posted by verne on May 7, 2006, at 16:50:14
You've never been anything but kind to me. I didn't think you were talking about me. But my viewpoint is necessarily colored by my experiences, so I answered in first person.
I don't think you're alone. I think how people view Babble, Babblers, and Bob differ very widely. I wish I understood enough to know why that may be so. :)
Posted by AuntieMel on May 8, 2006, at 11:06:54
In reply to Re: As they say in AA » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 22:58:45
If I did something to hurt you, I am really, really sorry.
I sometimes disagree, and I enjoyed the sparring that we used to do. If I went too far with any of it, well I know it doesn't help much, but I really didn't mean to.
Posted by greywolf on May 8, 2006, at 14:37:57
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:06:15
While I understand the occasional frustration with ticky-tack interpretations of the civility rules, it seems to me in the overall scheme of things that the rules are a really minor aspect of this site.
Seriously, take the hundreds of threads and thousands of posts that provide information, support, and entertainment to babblers, and weigh them against the handful of controversies created by purported breaches of the civility rules. What wins out for you? I know where the scale tips for me.
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:43:09
In reply to Civility Rules Seem Such A Small Matter, posted by greywolf on May 8, 2006, at 14:37:57
> While I understand the occasional frustration with ticky-tack interpretations of the civility rules, it seems to me in the overall scheme of things that the rules are a really minor aspect of this site.
it isn't about the rules so much as it is about the blocks.
the blocks aren't a 'really minor aspect of this site' because people are getting blocked all the time...
> Seriously, take the hundreds of threads and thousands of posts that provide information, support, and entertainment to babblers, and weigh them against the handful of controversies created by purported breaches of the civility rules. What wins out for you? I know where the scale tips for me.right. then take the 'hundreds of threads and thousands of posts that provide information, support, and entertainment to babblers, and weigh them'...
against the harm done by being blocked.
against the harm done by uncharitable interpretations of peoples posts.
by exiling them from the community.then add in a few other things like past traumas.
past traumas of being told one was unfit for human company so one was locked in ones room for weeks in some instances for some infraction that one could never make sense of.
then factor in how much blocks can retraumatise people.
rationally one might 'know' better
but unfortunately blocks don't work that way.
and bob's attitude seems to be 'oh well it is for the good of the group'
but what if he is wrong?
and bob's attitude seems to be 'i'm worried about the possible people'
but what if they only exist in his head? how many actual people need to be harmed in the process?
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:49:16
In reply to Re: I don't understand » Estella, posted by AuntieMel on May 8, 2006, at 11:06:54
> If I did something to hurt you, I am really, really sorry.
>
> I sometimes disagree, and I enjoyed the sparring that we used to do. If I went too far with any of it, well I know it doesn't help much, but I really didn't mean to.its okay. i'm sorry. sometimes i feel like bob is just waiting for me to step one foot out of line in the sparring...
so he can move on in and block me.
i'm sorry. i don't feel safe :-( i don't feel safe here anymore :-( i don't feel safe anywhere. it isn't really the posters here. it is the blocks. yeah this place meant so much to me. but the blocks aren't worth it. they just about kill me. they do. and i think they do kill parts of me. or something. i don't know. i don't understand. but it's not safe.
and now i see what people have been going on about for years.
now i see.
the blocks aren't helping me they are killing me.
but i'm only one
and how can that compare to the possible people in bob's head?????
i've gone from trying my hardest and respecting the rules to this
and its a response to the blocking system.
i can't handle it.
yeah i know...
here is not the place.
i'm sorry.
Posted by Declan on May 9, 2006, at 4:53:34
In reply to Re: I don't understand » AuntieMel, posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:49:16
Hi Alex
It looks like the blocks are being applied more moderately. After Larry's 6(?) week block things changed. Things might be better in the future. You reckon?
Declan
Posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 7:13:03
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » greywolf, posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 18:43:09
Look, I understand that being blocked is no fun, and I understand how people can disagree with the reasoning behind why they were blocked or with the length of the block. This is not the first time I've been involved in a discussion of this issue.
But take a look at the majority of blocks. Of the group I've seen, there's a large percentage that are completely obvious violations--for instance, remarks that were intentionally made to disparage other people or to tell them off, and which, without doubt, were uncivil. IMHO, blocking in such circumstances--even for lengthy periods of time in the case of repeat offenders--is entirely appropriate. There are plenty of other sites out there to post on if the objective is to dump on other people or get into arguments.
A smaller percentage of the blocks I've seen fall into the judgment call group--for example, someone being banned for expressing his opinion of Republicans or the president in apparently too harsh terms. I have more trouble accepting the fairness of some of these determinations, but that's limited mostly to the first offenders who reasonably didn't think their posts would be any problem.
My bottom line? I think you can say just about anything you want in a civil way--if you really want to. However, that appears to be difficult for some people because it requires that they take the finger off the trigger and give up the cathartic feeling of telling others where to go.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 9, 2006, at 12:11:35
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » Estella, posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 7:13:03
> I have more trouble accepting the fairness of some of these determinations, but that's limited mostly to the first offenders who reasonably didn't think their posts would be any problem.
Is it only first offenders who might reasonably think their posts would not be any problem?
> My bottom line? I think you can say just about anything you want in a civil way--if you really want to.
And, what if you really think you did?
I agree with your premise. What if you found yourself blocked for this post? Hypothetically, what if? How might you feel?
It is easy to take your position, kind inquisitor. I once thought it to be as simple as you say. I truly hope that you never encounter that exception, a false positive finding of incivility.
Lar
Posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 12:52:42
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » greywolf, posted by Larry Hoover on May 9, 2006, at 12:11:35
> Is it only first offenders who might reasonably think their posts would not be any problem?
My comment was really more linear than you may have seen it. I was referring to those situations when someone finds out that a post they reasonably thought was fine has violated the civility rule. For instance, when an apparently innocuous post on the politics board is interpreted as being potentially offensive. They have my sympathy on the first violation because in those situations I probably wouldn't have predicted the problem either, but if they return to the same board and make similar comments after having been made aware that they're crossing the line, well, they were warned.
> > My bottom line? I think you can say just about anything you want in a civil way--if you really want to.
>And, what if you really think you did?
Again, I acknowledge that I have seen a small number of blocks that have left me scratching my head and asking "what was uncivil about that." But the majority of blocks I am aware of aren't even a close call (people swearing at others, personally attacking them, etc.)
> I agree with your premise. What if you found yourself blocked for this post? Hypothetically, what if? How might you feel?
I'd wonder what's going on. I'd then write the deputy or Dr. Bob for an explanation. If I felt the resolution was unfair, you wouldn't see me around here for awhile--just like most other people would probably handle it.
> It is easy to take your position, kind inquisitor. I once thought it to be as simple as you say. I truly hope that you never encounter that exception, a false positive finding of incivility.
>
> Lar
I hope so, too. But just in case, I try not to get too attached.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 9, 2006, at 15:08:22
In reply to Re: It Isn't About the Civility Rules » Larry Hoover, posted by greywolf on May 9, 2006, at 12:52:42
> > It is easy to take your position, kind inquisitor. I once thought it to be as simple as you say. I truly hope that you never encounter that exception, a false positive finding of incivility.
> >
> > Lar
>
>
> I hope so, too. But just in case, I try not to get too attached.Aye! But there's the rub.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 11, 2006, at 3:20:54
In reply to Re: As they say in AA, posted by Estella on May 6, 2006, at 23:06:15
> people don't play nice
> they don't
> and neither does bobKeeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
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