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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by caraher on November 3, 2005, at 10:27:57
In reply to Re: please be civil » Maynerd, posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2005, at 9:22:16
> > People so afraid of being involved they stare at the ground
> > Headphones in their ears to avoid hearing a sound
> > Self-centered leaders so obsessed with power and wealth
> > They happily destroy both our happiness and health
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.I am utterly baffled by this PBC. First, it accuses nobody in particular. Any literate reader knows that this is not a diatribe against people wearing headphones, and the unnamed self-centered leaders can take on a wide variety of identities ranging from Saddam Hussein to heads of any number of countries. The deliberate ambiguity in this poem allows readers to populate that phrase with personalities that come from their own experience and opinions - that's part of the beauty of the poetic form! Simply observing that there exist self-centered leaders is no more an accusation or put down than patently acceptable, more specific remarks on other boards concerning unethical therapists, abusive parents or spouses and the motives of drug companies and government agencies.
Taken as a whole, the poem's message to get involved in a positive way in peaceful action against violence is exactly the sort of thing most peoiple here arguably need to read. The fear and apathy decried at the beginning is closely related to the "learned helplessness" that exacerbates the troubles of so many people with depression and other illnesses. The exhortation is not to give up in despair and hopelessness, but to dream of a brighter future and act on that dream. That a post with such a therapeutic, hopeful conclusion could be tagged by a PBC warning leads me to question whether any substantive posts could ever appear on the Politics board without a PBC if whatever standards led to this warning were applied with absolute consistency.
Posted by Declan on November 3, 2005, at 15:44:02
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by caraher on November 3, 2005, at 10:27:57
Perhaps there's some anxiety about escalating antagonism, not without reason. If we can't cope with that poem how are we going to welcome the islamist from Falluja when he pops his (civil) head up. Censor that poem and there goes English literature. Like from King Lear, off the top of my head
'Knowing naught, like dogs, but following'
That sounds offensive enough to me, taken in a certain way.
Declan
Posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 17:36:26
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Declan on November 3, 2005, at 15:44:02
> Perhaps there's some anxiety about escalating antagonism, not without reason. If we can't cope with that poem how are we going to welcome the islamist from Falluja when he pops his (civil) head up. >>
thank you for the rare laugh. :-)
Censor that poem and there goes English literature. Like from King Lear, off the top of my head
> 'Knowing naught, like dogs, but following'
> That sounds offensive enough to me, taken in a certain way.
oh, it is extremely offensive.i can think of another one off the top of my head:
"Necessity, the tyrant's plea." Paradise Lost.If I gave Milton more time to explain himself, both he and I would become extremely offensive.
-z
> Declan
Posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 18:21:35
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 17:36:26
I think an excellent idea would be to place poems like the one PBC'd in an 'appendix' section where poets can express themselves in ways they see fit (who knows why) while other readers who rely on civility as a means to keep themselves wholesome need not be distracted by 'offensive' poetry.
Moreover this plan carries the great virtue that those who really want to bury their heads in offensive material can sully themselves without reading every post on Psycho-Babble Writing and becoming frustrated with the uplifting sentiments allowed there (we can analogize and say, poets from the Axis of Evil need to feel good about themselves too. Sorry, let me rephrase. The Axis of Good. Who coined that phrase Axis of Evil? He or she was most uncivil when doing so.)I do not claim originality for my proposal. In fact I lift it directly from the bard of civility, Lord Byron:
Lucretious' irreligion is too strong
For early stomachs, to prove wholesome food;
I can't help thinking Juvenal was wrong,
Although no doubt his real intent was good,
for speaking out so plainly in his song,
So much indeed as to be downright rude;
And then what proper person can partial
To all those nauseous epigrams of Martial?Juan was taught from out the best edition,
Expurgated by learned men, who place,
Judiciously, from out the schoolboy's vision,
The grosser parts; but, fearful to deface
Too much their modest bard by this omission,
And pitying sore this mutilated case,
They only add them all in an appendix,
Which saves, in fact, the trouble of an index."Don Juan," Canto I, xliii-xliv.
These lines are to me a perfect statement of the spirit of the civilty rules as I understand them and as they were espoused in the warning to our "modest bard" who was so out of place among the hymns of purity that dignify Psycho-babble Writing. Note too how sensitive the poet is to even such as Lucretius and Juvenal, and even Martial's epigrams which caused him actual physical distress? Because there is a place for those whose palates have been tainted (perhaps by conditions treated these days by mental health professionals?) and their time need not be wasted by scanning main body, but by going straight to the 'appendix'.
perhaps there, having read any number of 'nauseous' poems, they can return to the main body of PB Writing and possibly even contribute inoffensive works of poetry? It is the poet's job not to give offense to anyone, of course. Byron is even kind enough to give an example of what a truly civil poet would do if faced with a respresentative of, um, the Axis of Plusgood:
He had written Wesley's life;- here turning round
To Satan, 'Sir, I'm ready to write yours,
In two octavo volumes, nicely bound,
With notes and preface, all that most allures
The pious purchaser; and there's no ground
For fear, for I can choose my reviewers:
So let me have the proper documents,
That I may add you to my other saints..Satan bow'd, and was silent. 'Well, if you,
With amiable modesty, decline
My offer, what says Michael? There are few
Whose memoirs could be render'd more divine.
Mine is a pen of all work; not so new
Asit was once, bit I would make you shine
Like your own trumpet. By the way, my own
Has more of brass in it, and is as well blown.'"The Vision of Judgment," xcix-c.
Br. Bob, I urge your serious consideration of these lines as a test of any poem on PB Writing: if it doesn't "present both sides," send it to the appendix, where perhaps, like insulin coma therapy, readers can pass out for a week and emerge better and more civil people. And saner, too.
-z
Posted by Tamar on November 4, 2005, at 23:21:34
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by caraher on November 3, 2005, at 10:27:57
Nicely put. I completely agree.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2005, at 14:50:42
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by caraher on November 3, 2005, at 10:27:57
> I am utterly baffled by this PBC. First, it accuses nobody in particular.
Is that better or worse?
> Taken as a whole, the poem's message to get involved in a positive way in peaceful action against violence is exactly the sort of thing most peoiple here arguably need to read.
That message is fine. And so is expressing it the way you just did...
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2005, at 23:21:42
In reply to Re: the poem's message, posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2005, at 14:50:42
I thought the writing board was a place for people to kind of privately vent and write whatever was on their mind. i don't think civility rules should apply. it's kind of like writing in a journal the thoughts in your head. Am I wrong or right? Just started visiting there. So need to find out the rules. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2005, at 1:10:44
In reply to Re: the poem's message, posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2005, at 23:21:42
> I thought the writing board was a place for people to kind of privately vent and write whatever was on their mind. i don't think civility rules should apply. it's kind of like writing in a journal the thoughts in your head.
Kind of, but different. I think the writing board needs to be civil, too. But this wasn't even there, it was at Politics...
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2005, at 18:25:01
In reply to Re: the poem's message, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2005, at 1:10:44
Sorry Dr. Bob misinterpreted it. Fondly, Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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