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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 173. Go back in thread:
Posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 16:54:09
In reply to can you please specify the post he was punished fo, posted by mike13 on July 5, 2005, at 16:17:52
> I'm really sick of the strict rules myself, i'd just like to see the specific post in question though.
>
>Here is a discussion on the subject...as it is a long, drawn out, grey-area discussion, which I think Bob misjudged. You can start here and go down.. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050614/msgs/512469.html
There are more...but much was said and done in email.Jay
Posted by thuso on July 5, 2005, at 16:57:39
In reply to **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.., posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 13:36:24
I would really like to know what good you think boycotting will do? I seriously would like to hear what you think this is going to accomplish. This isn't a democracy. And Dr. Bob isn't going to loose any time, money, or sleep by people boycotting. This is especially true since there is no way you'll be able to get enough people to cooperate in order to make much of a dent in daily posts. In this case, you'll have much more power by consistently letting your thoughts be known rather than boycotting or leaving. In school I had to read this book called "Exit, Voice, and Loyalty" by Albert Hirschman and it taught me quite a bit about the best ways to make your dissatisfaction known. Depending on the circumstance, sometimes it's better to exit and other times it's better to just make your voice heard. In this instance, I would offer the suggestion that if you want a change, boycotting is not going to do it.
I don't know the whole Larry Hover situation, so I'm not advocating for either side. I'm just curious to find out the rational for boycotting over other methods of protest.
I really hope you'll let me know.
Posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 17:03:10
In reply to Question » jay, posted by thuso on July 5, 2005, at 16:57:39
> I would really like to know what good you think boycotting will do? I seriously would like to hear what you think this is going to accomplish. This isn't a democracy. And Dr. Bob isn't going to loose any time, money, or sleep by people boycotting. This is especially true since there is no way you'll be able to get enough people to cooperate in order to make much of a dent in daily posts. In this case, you'll have much more power by consistently letting your thoughts be known rather than boycotting or leaving. In school I had to read this book called "Exit, Voice, and Loyalty" by Albert Hirschman and it taught me quite a bit about the best ways to make your dissatisfaction known. Depending on the circumstance, sometimes it's better to exit and other times it's better to just make your voice heard. In this instance, I would offer the suggestion that if you want a change, boycotting is not going to do it.
>
> I don't know the whole Larry Hover situation, so I'm not advocating for either side. I'm just curious to find out the rational for boycotting over other methods of protest.
>
> I really hope you'll let me know.Look...action *gets* results..and it focuses not just on the symbol of Solidarity, it I hope people have the good in them, will leave this board empty, as in a 'general strike' fashion. I have been on this board for many, many years, and I know what works. Do you not believe in the power of collective action? How do you think Unions work? Solidarity..
Jay
Posted by thuso on July 5, 2005, at 17:23:25
In reply to Re: Question » thuso, posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 17:03:10
> Look...action *gets* results..and it focuses not just on the symbol of Solidarity, it I hope people have the good in them, will leave this board empty, as in a 'general strike' fashion. I have been on this board for many, many years, and I know what works. Do you not believe in the power of collective action? How do you think Unions work? Solidarity..
>
> JayUnions get results because they cause a threat to those they are striking against. If a union calls a strike against a company, the company looses money. By boycotting here, Dr. Bob is loosing nothing except your contribution to the site. Even if you got 90% or 95% of the people to boycott, that will do nothing because new people will always join and a new community will begin to emerge. That's why I'm suggesting that staying and making your voice constantly heard will get more accomplished than trying to organize a boycott. It's obvsioulsy going to be up to each person here on what they want to do, but I don't think a boycott is going to cause any change whatsoever. By boycotting, people are only going to loose their ability to speak up when they disagree with something on here.
You mention that you know what works on this board since you've been here for many years. Has there been a boycott before that has been successful?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 18:48:44
In reply to Re: Question » jay, posted by thuso on July 5, 2005, at 17:23:25
I replied over on social. I agree with thuso. People have left as a matter of principle before. I'm not sure that it achieved a great deal. I don't think it achieved its objective.
But the people cut themselves off from a place where they could come and give and receive support.
And the other posters lost out on a giver and receiver of support too.
Yes, collective action can work. But I agree with thuso that Babble can and will survive. That collective action will not work in this instance.
I also want to say...And I have to be careful here...
But I also want to say...
What while I don't agree with the LENGTH of Larry's block I do agree with his being blocked.
He was warned on the admin board (in a previous thread) not to post to Emmy as she had requested that he not post to her.
He posted to her.
He was blocked.
IMO one week would have been more appropriate - as it was a technical issue that he had not been blocked for before.
But to not block him for it... Well, how would that have been consistent with other posters who have been blocked after one warning for posting to someone who has requested they not post to them?
I really think... That Dr Bob can't win on this one. If he lifts the block he is being inconsistent. If he keeps the block people want to leave because apparantly Larry didn't know. But he was warned not so long before...
I miss Larry too :-(
I think 6 weeks is too long.
Posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 20:53:52
In reply to Re: Question » thuso, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 18:48:44
Sorry...but I think you are very wrong. In *all* points. If you don't want anything to do with it..well..fine. Nothing like a good *sitout* strike..it works well in the real world, and can too here. Larry did NOT deserve a single second of his block...sorry but I think you are dead wrong.
Jay
Posted by justyourlaugh on July 5, 2005, at 20:55:21
In reply to Re: Question » thuso, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 18:48:44
i do not believe people in the position to help others should strike..
babble helps!
why would you want it silenced?
?
j
Posted by gabbii on July 5, 2005, at 21:07:14
In reply to Re: Question » alexandra_k, posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 20:53:52
> Sorry...but I think you are very wrong. In *all* points. If you don't want anything to do with it..well..fine. Nothing like a good *sitout* strike..it works well in the real world, and can too here. Larry did NOT deserve a single second of his block...sorry but I think you are dead wrong.
>I don't understand what that has to do with anything now anyway. He's already served almost three weeks of it, and his coming back now wouldn't erase that.
Posted by Deneb on July 5, 2005, at 21:11:45
In reply to **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.., posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 13:36:24
Does Larry want us to boycott the board?
If I were blocked, I would feel bad if I caused others to stop posting and to not be able to give or receive help.
If I were blocked, it would comfort me more for people to continue to post things for me to read and to remind me that I'm not forgotten.
Deneb
Posted by henrietta on July 5, 2005, at 21:18:47
In reply to Re: **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.., posted by AuntieMel on July 5, 2005, at 15:39:23
in fact, ignorance of the law is NO defense.
look it up.
i don't think that rule is always fair, but i must admit that in this case, with a person as thorough, as conscientious, as involved, as precise as Larry, the rule applies.
that being said, I think the punishment is absurdly disproportionate to the offense, and the real question to be addressed here is the rigid system of escalating punishment.
larry should have been blocked for a day or two at the very most.
just my 6 cents.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 21:20:12
In reply to Re: Question » alexandra_k, posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 20:53:52
You don't have to apologise for disagreeing with me but if you think I am wrong on '*all* points' I do think the very least you could do would be to explain why you think each of my points is wrong.
You might be able to bring me around to your way of thinking, you see.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 6, 2005, at 1:07:36
In reply to **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.., posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 13:36:24
Sorry, Jay, but I can't.
I won't deprive myself of this community I have come to cherish and depend on.
I won't take myself away where I can't support others either.
Deneb said it best. I can't imagine Lar would want this. Don't mean to be so harsh toward you, but I do think it would be meaningless, too.
I'll support Larry another way. But not with a boycott. It woud be wrong on so many levels.
I do so admire your loyalty and righteous anger, though. You are a good friend, and those are invaluable. Lar is fortunate to have you in his corner.
It's just that I have to respectfully disagree with your choice of protest.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2005, at 1:39:38
In reply to Re: Question » thuso, posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2005, at 18:48:44
> you know the goodness Larry has brought to this board, he does not deserve this. I saw Larry last week and he felt completely horrible about this situation... I'd also challenge Bob to apologize to Larry for trivialising his last situation, where the was a TON of grey area
>
> JayLarry does a lot to help others. He's a model in many ways. I'm sorry if I've been unfair to him or made him feel hurt or devalued.
What I don’t want to trivialize is requests not to be posted to. My preference, however, is to keep lines of communication open, and I appreciate that he does that -- and that the post of his that led to the DNP fell in an area that was (and still is) grey.
I hope this doesn't keep him from returning.
--
> People have left as a matter of principle before. I'm not sure that it achieved a great deal.
>
> alexandra_kWell, different people may have different objectives. It may be more important to some to show their support for a person (or a principle) than to try to effect change. Making a personal sacrifice can be seen as an especially strong show of support, and trying to effect change I know can feel futile.
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on July 6, 2005, at 8:49:55
In reply to Re: Larry Hover's Block, posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2005, at 1:39:38
I would not want to trivialize DNP requests either. They are an effective method of self protection.
BUT! It's clear from reading the entire thread that there was some confusion by Larry about the rule. The only mention of DNP in the FAQ is in relation to harrassment - a topic you have to admit Larry is quite familiar with (and probably very sensative to.)
There are really only two ways he could have *known* that it had been decided that a DNP doesn't have to have a reason to be invoked. He could have been reading the admin thread where it was decided - or he could have had someone in authority (you or a deputy) tell him.
Looking further down the thread, you can see where Dinah told Larry that she *thought* it didn't require harassment, but it wasn't definitive, and it was as a poster, not a deputy.
A few confusing posts came after this - with others joining in.
Later Dinah was more definite in asking him to honor the DNP - and he did.
I am having a hard time understanding why you think 6 weeks is appropriate. Even Emmy thinks it is too long.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 6, 2005, at 8:57:14
In reply to Re: **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.. » AuntieMel, posted by henrietta on July 5, 2005, at 21:18:47
Right. I know ignorance is no excuse. I was trying to imply I thought it *should be* an excuse.
If I was skipping on the sidewalks in Chicago and was arrested not knowing that sidewalk skipping is a felony offense there I would hope that ignorance (and common sense) would get me off.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 6, 2005, at 9:04:11
In reply to Re: **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.. » AuntieMel, posted by henrietta on July 5, 2005, at 21:18:47
More on the above thought.
If I was arrested for sidewalk skipping and there was a nearby board of rules posted that I didn't read then I would think ignorance would be less of a defense.
But if I read the rules and they said no sidewalk skipping on rainy days and the sun was shining then I would assume it was ok to skip. And if the police told me that it was discussed and they decided that sunny days should be skip free .....
well I think I would have to protest that sunny day skipping should be allowed until the posted rules were modified.
And the FAQ, the posted rules, only talk about DNP in terms of harassment. It was discussed on admin about allowing DNP for any reason, but the FAQ hasn't been changed.
Posted by henrietta on July 6, 2005, at 20:26:18
In reply to Re: more ignorance » henrietta, posted by AuntieMel on July 6, 2005, at 9:04:11
Not to me, but to the situation. Well done!
Posted by Phillipa on July 6, 2005, at 22:09:37
In reply to A wonderfully homeopathic response! » AuntieMel, posted by henrietta on July 6, 2005, at 20:26:18
Larry, We miss you! Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by jay on July 7, 2005, at 15:47:37
In reply to **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.., posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 13:36:24
Well, after talking with Lar (Oh Dr. Bob, you aren't going to kill me for that now, are you?), maybe a boycott isn't the best route. But, I thought of it for the *principle*. You know...my feelings about Bob and the tie in with his profession sum it up in the pledge to "First, do no harm." This is exactly what I feel Bob has done to Larry...harm..creating him lots of pain and hurt. When many other board members come to a similar conclusion, Bob should be doing some rethinking that he is not *always* right, and I don't feel should operate this website in such a totalitarian fashion. The board is made up of people who are ill, for geeezes sake, and I think a much more flexible and democratic style should be adapted by Bob...not ruling with an iron fist.
Anyhow...just IMHO..
Jay
Posted by AuntieMel on July 7, 2005, at 17:05:08
In reply to Re:Boycotting Board re: Larry Hover's Block.Dr.Bob, posted by jay on July 7, 2005, at 15:47:37
I would start one for blocked babblers.
It's funny how this site - it *is* just a web site after all - affects those who use it. And how deeply hurt the blocked folks can get.
I am very, very sad.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 7, 2005, at 18:35:47
In reply to Re:I wish I knew how to start a web site » jay, posted by AuntieMel on July 7, 2005, at 17:05:08
I have a website!
(a little minimalist at this point)
go to freewebpages.com and you can start up a website.I've been thinking about what you have been saying, Jay. And I guess I never thought of it as a show of support rather than an attempt to effect change. I really do admire that you would do something like that. Really.
But... I'm also glad that you have decided to stay. I'd be really sad if you left. And I really hope that Larry decided to come back too.
Posted by Jen Star on July 7, 2005, at 18:43:36
In reply to **Boycotting Board** re: Larry Hover's Block.., posted by jay on July 5, 2005, at 13:36:24
well,
I'm afraid I'm not up for joining a boycott, although I know you have the best intentions for Larry. I just enjoy posting too much to deliberately block myself!But it's obvious that Larry (if you're reading!) -- you have lots of supporters here. I can't think of another time when people banded together like this to protest a block. I hope you see that the board has not forgotten you, and that people are eager for you to return.
take care, and we'll hear from you in a few weeks! :)
JenStar
Posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2005, at 19:06:51
In reply to Larry, you are clearly loved here! :) » jay, posted by Jen Star on July 7, 2005, at 18:43:36
Larry, I still hope Dr. Bob reconsiders and you come back sooner. All those posts! Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by jay on July 7, 2005, at 23:08:15
In reply to Re:I wish I knew how to start a web site, posted by alexandra_k on July 7, 2005, at 18:35:47
> I have a website!
> (a little minimalist at this point)
> go to freewebpages.com and you can start up a website.
>
> I've been thinking about what you have been saying, Jay. And I guess I never thought of it as a show of support rather than an attempt to effect change. I really do admire that you would do something like that. Really.
>
> But... I'm also glad that you have decided to stay. I'd be really sad if you left. And I really hope that Larry decided to come back too.
Hey AK...thank you so much..I am really flattered that you saw beneath the skin what my motives where. Maybe I am/was naive, but I really am an idealist..very stubborn..lol. I guess after meeting Larry IRL, seeing his pain in his words, I felt I had to try something. I honestly dislike conflict and such..but as you know, sometimes you must try to stand up for what you feel is a wrong. I am really happy, though, so many stood up for Lar. Now, I just wish Bob would very deeply rethink his stance considering all of the voices.Anyhow...thanks again so kindly :-)
Best,
Jay
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 8, 2005, at 0:03:30
In reply to Re: more ignorance » henrietta, posted by AuntieMel on July 6, 2005, at 9:04:11
> Looking further down the thread, you can see where Dinah told Larry that she *thought* it didn't require harassment, but it wasn't definitive, and it was as a poster, not a deputy.
>
> Later Dinah was more definite in asking him to honor the DNP - and he did.Hmm, can you send me links?
> I am having a hard time understanding why you think 6 weeks is appropriate.
Because last time it was 6 weeks.
> if I read the rules and they said no sidewalk skipping on rainy days and the sun was shining then I would assume it was ok to skip.
And if it were partly cloudy? :-)
Bob
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