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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2005, at 1:09:09
In reply to Re: Civility or censorship? I'm surprised » fires, posted by alexandra_k on February 21, 2005, at 23:32:34
> > I'm coming off my 3rd (?) banning. I find it almost impossible to state my opinions without getting banned.
>
> This leads me to think that you are trying to work out what (if anything) you did wrong.
>
> A lot of people find it hard to work that out.
>
> People here may be willing to help you figure that out if you genuinely want to know.I have the utmost respect for people who try to work out what (if anything) they're doing wrong. It isn't easy.
> drama is the story of my life.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050128/msgs/458719.html
> How about a new chapter in your story? :-)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050128/msgs/459596.html
> writer's BLOCK, I guess
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050128/msgs/459727.html
That use of "BLOCK" was interesting, one way to look at it is that blocking the old story facilitates a new one...
Bob
Posted by Toph on February 22, 2005, at 1:49:28
In reply to Re: working things out, posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2005, at 1:09:09
> That use of "BLOCK" was interesting, one way to look at it is that blocking the old story facilitates a new one...
>
> BobI confess that it is kind of a thrill when you notice my posts. Why is that anyway? Believe it or not it's kind of like the illusion that God answers your prayers every now and then. It keeps you praying.
Not that you're God or anything.
It's the whole facilitator thing that bugs me . You might as well have said, "blocking the old story coerces a new one..." It has the paradoxical effect of bringing out the rebelliousness in me and probably others, most of whom are no longer with us. The word facilitate implies that you have a conscious design to change us.
But if I am truely honest I do seek your approval as much as I hate to admit it Bob. If I may venture into object relations theory (amateur that I may be) the idealization of you as a parental object is a need that you use to get us to conform to your family norms. Then as we mature (on PB)we integrate this belief system as our own thereby reducing the need for an idealized other. We incrimentally through a system of rewards and punishments (maybe I'm unwittingly talking about behaviorism) into better citizens as the separation struggle is ameliorated.
Jeez, I'm glad I returned to social work.
What am I tring to say here? I hope if I am entering a new chapter at PB, it has less to do with wanting to please you as it does with wanting to stay with my friends. While I may seek your approval, I am devastated (maybe a little strong)when another Babbler thinks I am some kind of a jerk, witness the Atticus fiasco.
It's late, I let the dog out, and here I am having this imaginary conversation with Bob. Surreal. Hope at least some of it will make sense in the morning.
Toph
Posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 1:59:12
In reply to Re: working things out, posted by Toph on February 22, 2005, at 1:49:28
Is it such a bad thing to internalise civility rules do ya think???
Posted by Toph on February 22, 2005, at 2:05:06
In reply to Re: working things out, posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2005, at 1:09:09
I just peeked at that post again to check my stream of consciousness, and I realized that this wasn't my thread, that you used me as an example of working things out, and you said, I think, that you had the utmost respect for me.
Maybe this idealization thing works both ways.
Posted by Toph on February 22, 2005, at 2:08:48
In reply to Re: working things out » Toph, posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 1:59:12
Nope, of course not. But don't tell Bob I said so, OK?
Posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 8:59:01
In reply to Re: Civility or censorship? I'm surprised » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on February 21, 2005, at 16:10:04
Actually, since we've beaten this poor horse so many times it's amazing it still looks like a horse, I'm not surprised other folks had this reaction.
It *does* surprise me that it comes from you. Please don't read this as criticism or a put down. I'm just seeing some similarities between this and a situation you ran into.
Here you say:
"He quoted the DSM crieria for Borderline Personality Disorder and said 'In my opinion it would be hard to trust or communicate with someone who exhibits such severe symptoms as these' or something similar."
and:
"But compassion, empathy, kindness, and faith in others intentions are not matters of logic. I hope that I never let logic get in the way of those things. I have little tolerance for people who do."
but on social you said:
"Can you say something that is educational though possibly a bit hurtful (though not uncivil).
In the sense that sometimes it is painful to face up to stuff... but that the long term goods outweigh the initial 'ouch'. Not that we have the final word on the truth or anything, but can we say what we think and leave the uptake to the other person. They can reject it if they will..."
-------------------------------------
I posted a diagnostic criteria for someone to consider. Posted a link to a criteria (list of symptoms) and a bit of a discussion about the experience of those symptoms.
Said 'just a thought' with the links.
Told off for 'armchair diagnosing'.
That was not my intention.
The poster could have done what they wanted with it but in this case they got MOST OFFENDED.Anyways. I just presented it as something to consider.
A genuine attempt to be helpful
------------------------------------------------
And they could have said 'had a look, but I really don't think it applies' in which case I would have left it there.
--------------------------------------------------
I knew this person would get pissed off.
But I thought they might reconsider what I had said sometime when they were ready to look at it...+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anyway, I know you didn't mean to hurt anyone, and I don't believe fires did either. It seems to me that you both have (have had) good intentions and the delivery went astray. So, does that explain a bit why I was surprised?
Posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 11:41:14
In reply to Re: Civility or censorship? I'm surprised » fires, posted by alexandra_k on February 21, 2005, at 23:32:34
> > You didn't mention that at the time I was on the receiving end of numerous rhetorical questions from "MPD" patient(s) whom I still believe were posting using multiple "handles".
>
> I didn't mention that because I didn't know that. I am sorry if you felt you have gotten a hard time by some one / people from this site. If you think that someone is posting under multiple posting names then it may be worthwhile to pass that on to Dr Bob - that is not allowed here.
>I expressed my concerns to the poster, but couldn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person was also another poster.
> Regardless of whether that was or was not the case that doesn't address or alter anything I have said. Though I can understand that sometimes people do things they regret when they are hurting. Is that what you mean? That you were hurting and said stuff you regret either to them or to other posters?
>
> You might find people to be more sympathetic to your hurts if you show more sympathy to their hurts.
>
> >I'm coming off my 3rd (?) banning. I find it almost impossible to state my opinions without getting banned. Seems some opinions are by their very nature considered uncivil, no matter how carefully they are stated. I've always been careful to attack ideas only -- not people -- but I still get banned.
>
> This leads me to think that you are trying to work out what (if anything) you did wrong.
>I don't feel that I've done anything "wrong". I probably could have said some things better though.
> A lot of people find it hard to work that out.
>
> People here may be willing to help you figure that out if you genuinely want to know.
>
> I regret having gotten so upset about what you said in the BPD thread. But can you see how someone with BPD could take your comments as a personal attack against them? - and not just because they are mentally unwell.
>
>I'd have to go back and read the posts. I'm not up to it right now. I had a bad experience with Cymbalta, and my recently Dxed RLS/PLMD [Restless Leg Syndrome/Periodic Limb Movement Disorder (Sleep disorder)], appears to be causing me problems of a "psych" nature.
Thanks
Posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 11:47:11
In reply to Re: Civility or censorship? I'm surprised » alexandra_k, posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 11:41:14
I remember the time and as I remember it "accusations" were going both ways on that issue.
The person that *was* a blocked poster using a different name was on the psych board using the pseudoname 'mister.' Dr. Bob was away at that time and the whole thing got to be a huge mess.
Posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 12:04:43
In reply to Re: multiple posting names » fires, posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 11:47:11
> I remember the time and as I remember it "accusations" were going both ways on that issue.
>
> The person that *was* a blocked poster using a different name was on the psych board using the pseudoname 'mister.' Dr. Bob was away at that time and the whole thing got to be a huge mess.That's a different case than that of which I wrote.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 13:33:54
In reply to Re: why I'm surprised » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 8:59:01
Okay. I would say the difference is that providing information with respect to diagnostic criteria for a syndrome / disorder is one thing. Providing something along the lines of a value judgement about people who have the syndrome / disorder is quite another, however.
> 'In my opinion it would be hard to trust or communicate with someone who exhibits such severe symptoms as these'
What good was supposed to come of that???
>sometimes it is painful to face up to stuff... but that the long term goods outweigh the initial 'ouch'.
Is that perhaps something that you think people with the bordeline diagnosis need to face up to?
>Can you say something that is educational though possibly a bit hurtful (though not uncivil).
I fail to see what was educational about that, unless we wanted to learn about fires opinion. He was also given a civility warning so it seems that not only was that not educational it was also not civil and as I said, it was hurtful to me at the very least.
> "But compassion, empathy, kindness, and faith in others intentions are not matters of logic. I hope that I never let logic get in the way of those things. I have little tolerance for people who do."
Right, and I stand by that. Except to add that I probably need to learn to have more tolerance..
Does this make sense???By the way I appreciate your thinking and your opinion. I don't think I have said that directly to you before. Where were you when the whole small boards dialogue was unfolding hmm? hmm?
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 13:36:25
In reply to Re: Civility or censorship? I'm surprised » alexandra_k, posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 11:41:14
> I expressed my concerns to the poster, but couldn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person was also another poster.
Dr Bob has ways of checking...
> I don't feel that I've done anything "wrong". I probably could have said some things better though.ok
Posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 14:41:39
In reply to Re: why I'm surprised you are surprised » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 13:33:54
> Okay. I would say the difference is that providing information with respect to diagnostic criteria for a syndrome / disorder is one thing. Providing something along the lines of a value judgement about people who have the syndrome / disorder is quite another, however.
>
> > 'In my opinion it would be hard to trust or communicate with someone who exhibits such severe symptoms as these'
>While this could have been worded more supportively I didn't read it as a value judgement. But - I couldn't find the original post and maybe if I could read it I would change my mind.
> What good was supposed to come of that???
>I don't know. But again I have no context.
> >sometimes it is painful to face up to stuff... but that the long term goods outweigh the initial 'ouch'.
>
> Is that perhaps something that you think people with the bordeline diagnosis need to face up to?
>I don't know. I was quoting you on that one...
> >Can you say something that is educational though possibly a bit hurtful (though not uncivil).
>
> I fail to see what was educational about that, unless we wanted to learn about fires opinion. He was also given a civility warning so it seems that not only was that not educational it was also not civil and as I said, it was hurtful to me at the very least.
>That one was quoting you, too.
> > "But compassion, empathy, kindness, and faith in others intentions are not matters of logic. I hope that I never let logic get in the way of those things. I have little tolerance for people who do."
>
> Right, and I stand by that. Except to add that I probably need to learn to have more tolerance..
>Agreed. Tolerance is a good thing. Something we should all work on.
When I went looking for the post in question I only found about a half dozen by fires. But it looked to me like for every fires quote there were several posts back.
Is it possible that fires felt backed into a corner?
> By the way I appreciate your thinking and your opinion. I don't think I have said that directly to you before. Where were you when the whole small boards dialogue was unfolding hmm? hmm?
>
> :-)Thank you for that. I like the way you think logically myself.
During the small board ruckus I was here and posted some, but I was going through a lot of {dung} and not thinking too clearly.
peace.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 15:56:18
In reply to Re: why I'm surprised you are surprised » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 14:41:39
> While this could have been worded more supportively I didn't read it as a value judgement. But - I couldn't find the original post and maybe if I could read it I would change my mind.
Okay, so maybe 'value judgement' is a bit harsh. He was making a statement about *his* responses to people, but the implication was that *his* response was *normal* or *inevitable* given the symptoms. If that is the case then it is not such a great step from there to the *fact* he may have attempting to avoid being blocked for: that people with the diagnosis are untrustworthy and are unable to communicate rationally.
> > >sometimes it is painful to face up to stuff... but that the long term goods outweigh the initial 'ouch'.
> > Is that perhaps something that you think people with the bordeline diagnosis need to face up to?
> I don't know. I was quoting you on that one...Sorry - rhetorical device. Not completely fair. I was just trying to create a bridge between my response to fires and the things you quoted me as having said previously. I don't think there is inconsistency between them. That is all I was trying to illustrate.
> > >Can you say something that is educational though possibly a bit hurtful (though not uncivil).> > I fail to see what was educational about that, unless we wanted to learn about fires opinion. He was also given a civility warning so it seems that not only was that not educational it was also not civil and as I said, it was hurtful to me at the very least.
> That one was quoting you, too.
> > > "But compassion, empathy, kindness, and faith in others intentions are not matters of logic. I hope that I never let logic get in the way of those things. I have little tolerance for people who do."> > Right, and I stand by that. Except to add that I probably need to learn to have more tolerance..
> Agreed. Tolerance is a good thing. Something we should all work on.Yeah. The world would be a better place if everyone worked on that one :-)
But sometimes things are just a bit much and we need to avoid them until we are stronger. Not forever, but for a while...
>Is it possible that fires felt backed into a corner?Yeah, I dare say I would have felt pretty defensive being on the receiving end of the posts he got. But then my response would be to go back through them and try to see what I did (if anything) to prompt such responses.
Not just say 'oh well, thats what you get for trying to talk rationally with mentally ill people'.
> > By the way I appreciate your thinking and your opinion.
> Thank you for that.You are welcome.
I left that in because it bears repeating :-)>I like the way you think logically myself.
I try. But I am not perfect, nooooooooo way.
> During the small board ruckus I was here and posted some, but I was going through a lot of {dung} and not thinking too clearly.Ok, I guess I'll have to forgive ya then ;-)
> peace.Yeah, peace.
Posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 16:27:36
In reply to Re: multiple posting names » AuntieMel, posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 12:04:43
That's the only one that I know of that truly was someone using multiple names.
If you could babblemail me (so you don't get in trouble for accusing anyone) I can tell you if you were on the right or wrong track.
You will have to enable babblemail yourself first. This is done by modifying your registration to enable it.
Of course the civility rules apply for babblemail, too.
Is it still raining there? If it keeps it up the terrain will be as flat as gulf coast Texas.
Posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 16:37:10
In reply to Re: why I'm surprised you are surprised » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 15:56:18
<<<<<<<<Yeah, I dare say I would have felt pretty defensive being on the receiving end of the posts he got. But then my response would be to go back through them and try to see what I did (if anything) to prompt such responses.
<<<<<<<<<<Not just say 'oh well, thats what you get for trying to talk rationally with mentally ill people'.
I'm, not pointing any fingers at you. It's just that you're the only one listening to me right now. I thank you for that, more than you know.It just seems to me that fires always gets less than a kind welcome. Even from the beginning of his posting.
I think people deserve a second chance. And maybe a third and a fourth if it looks like they're trying. And I've never seen any malice in anything fires has posted.
the neverending battle.
Posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 22:53:55
In reply to Re: multiple posting names » fires, posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 16:27:36
> That's the only one that I know of that truly was someone using multiple names.
>
> If you could babblemail me (so you don't get in trouble for accusing anyone) I can tell you if you were on the right or wrong track.
>
> You will have to enable babblemail yourself first. This is done by modifying your registration to enable it.
>
> Of course the civility rules apply for babblemail, too.
>
> Is it still raining there? If it keeps it up the terrain will be as flat as gulf coast Texas.
Maybe I'll search down the posts when/if time allows. Since I already posted them, I don't see how I could be banned now. The statute of limitations is up. ;) Intermittent heavy rain, funnel clouds near the beach, mudslides, etc...
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2005, at 22:54:28
In reply to Re: working things out, posted by Toph on February 22, 2005, at 1:49:28
> as we mature (on PB)we integrate this belief system as our own thereby reducing the need for an idealized other. We incrimentally through a system of rewards and punishments (maybe I'm unwittingly talking about behaviorism) into better citizens as the separation struggle is ameliorated.
I wouldn't call anyone immature, or a worse citizen :-) but I do think something like that might be nice, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/300134.html
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 23:17:34
In reply to Re: why I'm surprised you are surprised » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on February 22, 2005, at 16:37:10
> I'm, not pointing any fingers at you.
I know that - I never thought you were.
>It's just that you're the only one listening to me right now. I thank you for that, more than you know.
Oh, I think I understand. I am often very pleased when people seem to be listening to me too. You are most welcome.
> It just seems to me that fires always gets less than a kind welcome. Even from the beginning of his posting.Yeah. He does seem to go around hitting nerves. If I were stronger it wouldn't bug me as much. But the implications are too much for me. I get the urge to be uncivil and that doesn't help anyone. Different people seem to find that with different posters. Interesting...
> I think people deserve a second chance. And maybe a third and a fourth if it looks like they're trying. And I've never seen any malice in anything fires has posted.No, I don't think there is malice. There just seems to me to be an insensitivity to how people are likely to respond. I hope I don't get a blocking for that one...
> the neverending battle.:-)
I appreciate your comparatively objective stance on this one.Really.
Posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 23:38:43
In reply to Re: why I'm surprised you are surprised » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on February 22, 2005, at 23:17:34
"Criticism is something we can avoid easily - by saying nothing, doing nothing and being nothing." - Aristotle
Posted by alexandra_k on February 23, 2005, at 1:13:50
In reply to An applicable quote, posted by fires on February 22, 2005, at 23:38:43
But he didn't think of everything.
More of a Plato fan myself ;-)
I wasn't so much thinking of avoidance of criticism as avoidance of hurting others unnecessarily...
I too like to argue...
But there must be another way...By the way, I would like to apoligise and retract my 'do not post to me' request. Sorry that I have done that on two occasions now.
I do feel hurt and indignant and annoyed by things that I take to be implied by quite a few of your posts. To be fair I have only followed maybe four of the threads you have posted to. But I have felt all those things in response to all of those threads.
My issue?? Perhaps. I know that everyone doesn't feel that way. AuntieMel, for instance does very well indeed. But I do think that the way in which you go about prompting (or perhaps even provoking) argument or discussion leaves a lot to be desired.
And I don't think that you respond to others telling you they felt hurt or offended very well at all. If you do respond it seems to be to talk about your own ailments. But as I have said before, I do think people would be a lot more sympathetic to your hurts if you showed a little more sympathy (or at least some sort of aknowledgement) of theirs.
But enough of the lecture... And you did say something about maybe being able to word it better... And so I shall choose to take that as an apology for having upset anyone (which isn't to acknowledge fault or blame it is just to say that you are sorry they are hurting) And so that is great. And I feel a bit better now.
Anyways. This has been a hard week for me. I shan't request that you not post to me again - okay? If I feel too upset then I shall simply ignore you - fair enough ;-)
But I do not believe you are malicious.
Truce?
Posted by fires on February 23, 2005, at 10:44:52
In reply to Aristotle is great... » fires, posted by alexandra_k on February 23, 2005, at 1:13:50
Posted by alexandra_k on February 23, 2005, at 15:56:17
In reply to Re: Aristotle is great... (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by fires on February 23, 2005, at 10:44:52
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2005, at 22:43:51
In reply to Aristotle is great... » fires, posted by alexandra_k on February 23, 2005, at 1:13:50
> He does seem to go around hitting nerves.
>
> There just seems to me to be an insensitivity to how people are likely to respond.> the way in which you go about prompting (or perhaps even provoking) argument or discussion leaves a lot to be desired.
>
> And I don't think that you respond to others telling you they felt hurt or offended very well at all.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
> I get the urge to be uncivil and that doesn't help anyone.
Is there something else you can do then?
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on February 23, 2005, at 22:52:08
In reply to Re: please be civil » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2005, at 22:43:51
Posted by alexandra_k on February 24, 2005, at 0:27:23
In reply to Re: please be civil » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2005, at 22:43:51
Go forward in thread:
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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