![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 15:35:42
I have to assume that your apparent obsession with Bob was caused by some prior hurt/injury which you feel that he caused you? I wondered if you would tell us about that?
Were you hurt in such a way that you can reveal the injuries w/o revealing your indentity? I am just curious as to what could have occured to cause such anger. You have put SO much energy into this research and documentation, it boggles my mind. I wonder what the catalyst was for all this activity?
I am sorry if you feel injured. I wish you a healthy recovery.
Emmy
Posted by gardenergirl on October 21, 2004, at 15:59:42
In reply to Mary B - How did Bob hurt you?, posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 15:35:42
Emmy,
What a nice show of compassion. I'm in awe.And I am reminded of a conversation my T has had with me about finding compassion for those with whom I am angry. That led me to think of a broader topic of conversation with him about anger with others in general. He also reminds me not to try to angrily debate with people who appear to be impaired in some way, either those who are mentally, emotionally, or cognitively impaired, not to mention those under the influence of substances. It's not a fair debate, he says, and you will only get frustrated with the other person's challenges. Instead, he advocates for finding at least a smidgeon of compassion, and working from that place. Now I'm not sure I absolutely agree with his view of things, and I certainly have not practiced it perfectly. But I am trying. It does help with the anger, anyway.
So, congratulations to you for working from that place.
Oh, and look where I wind up when I get ahold of internet access from afar. :)
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 17:31:14
In reply to Mary B - How did Bob hurt you?, posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 15:35:42
> I have to assume that your apparent obsession with Bob was caused by some prior hurt/injury which you feel that he caused you? I wondered if you would tell us about that?
>
> Were you hurt in such a way that you can reveal the injuries w/o revealing your indentity? I am just curious as to what could have occured to cause such anger. You have put SO much energy into this research and documentation, it boggles my mind. I wonder what the catalyst was for all this activity?
>
> I am sorry if you feel injured. I wish you a healthy recovery.
>
> Emmy
>
>With the exception of my first couple of posts, most of my replies have been responsive to some fairly intensive appeals that I reply, or to other ongoing discussion about me, some of which raises questions in my mind about what is and is not acceptable behavior here.
I've been explicit and repetitious on this point. I am motivated by injuries I have seen others suffer. Is it difficult to understand that I could act in the interest of others? Have you not noticed posts by people acknowledging hurt they have suffered which they believe arise from administrative policies at this site?
Posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 17:59:17
In reply to Re: Bob hurt who? » TofuEmmy, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 17:31:14
> With the exception of my first couple of posts, most of my replies have been responsive to some fairly intensive appeals that I reply, or to other ongoing discussion about me, some of which raises questions in my mind about what is and is not acceptable behavior here.
>
> I've been explicit and repetitious on this point. I am motivated by injuries I have seen others suffer. Is it difficult to understand that I could act in the interest of others? Have you not noticed posts by people acknowledging hurt they have suffered which they believe arise from administrative policies at this site?
>Interesting that you separate your first couple posts from the rest. I too noticed a different style in the first few postings. It almost seems as if authorship has changed? But perhaps that's my own mental illness showing...
My comment about the exhaustive amount of work "you" have put into this effort was regarding comments in an early post,
"we have developed protocols to classify and quantify Robert Hsiung's interventions here.... we classified with those where he has objected to members .....We have meticulously collated the data with Hsiung's stated reasons...We are now plodding through the tedious process of identifying occasions when Hsiung has allowed similar behaviors....."
I wasn't referring to your current postings. It's your level of involvement and interest in Bob that I find fascinating.
And, no, I don't think a total stranger would be this compelled to come here and get that involved without a personal interest. Call me a cynic.
So, I still hope for an answer to the question...how did Bob hurt you who is collecting all this data on Bob?
emmy
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 18:12:43
In reply to Re: Bob hurt you » Mary_Bowers, posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 17:59:17
> > With the exception of my first couple of posts, most of my replies have been responsive to some fairly intensive appeals that I reply, or to other ongoing discussion about me, some of which raises questions in my mind about what is and is not acceptable behavior here.
> >
> > I've been explicit and repetitious on this point. I am motivated by injuries I have seen others suffer. Is it difficult to understand that I could act in the interest of others? Have you not noticed posts by people acknowledging hurt they have suffered which they believe arise from administrative policies at this site?
> >
>
> Interesting that you separate your first couple posts from the rest. I too noticed a different style in the first few postings. It almost seems as if authorship has changed? But perhaps that's my own mental illness showing...More likely the target audience has changed. The first post was composed to a group whose reactions I could not easily anticipate, and was written with a few specific experiences of others in mind. The later posts were primarily in response to repeated requests that I reply. The tone was more conversational and less oriented toward hinting at an ongoing private project conducted on behalf of a few friends who have approached us with problems they believe to be related to this site.
> I wasn't referring to your current postings. It's your level of involvement and interest in Bob that I find fascinating.
This has always fascinated me, that a person who knows the life history of an NFL quarterback and how that history might effects the outcome in a future contest is considered a typical sports fan, but when persons develop expertise in practical matters outside their professional area of involvement, their interest is sometimes considered an anomoly. I assure you there are X-Files fans whose review of that series is as intensive and perhaps more maticulous and thourough than is our casual research.And I'm not that involved. So far, I haven't run any Bible Code algorithms looking for hidden messages in posts submitted by members, nor am I likely to explore that avenue.
Posted by verne on October 21, 2004, at 18:24:58
In reply to Re: Bob hurt who? » TofuEmmy, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 17:31:14
Mary,
I don't think you necessarily had to have been hurt personally to be an advocate. And I wouldn't characterize what you're doing as an "obsession".
Why can't we pursue ideals, such as justice, without hearing the argument that we have somehow been injured? Why call the police if we see the neighbor's home being burglarized, or do anything to help others - if our guiding principle is: "as long as it ain't happening to me, who cares"?
I'm sorry you've been mobbed. The various threads concerning you reminds me of a royal pro-wrestling "smackdown", or to mix metaphors, a shark feeding frenzy.
You have shown remarkable patience and you've earned my admiration.
verne
Posted by gardenergirl on October 21, 2004, at 18:25:13
In reply to Re: Bob hurt who? » TofuEmmy, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 18:12:43
Sometimes you just can't get your question answered. Perhaps it's the other half of the "we" and "our" that would provide it if she could (assuming it's not a royal "we"). You know, our friend Zen was always more vocal about her concerns about this site. Perhaps if she were not banned, she would have some shared some insight on this.
Sigh, and as my posts have gone unanswered by MB, no bisquit for me.
With my apologies to the Stones:
I can't get no-oh
Satisfaction.
I ain't found enough
Cuh-um-passion.
Though I try
And I try
And I try
And I try...Everyone sing...
gg
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 18:39:21
In reply to Re: Bob hurt who? » Mary_Bowers, posted by verne on October 21, 2004, at 18:24:58
> I'm sorry you've been mobbed.I've been mobbed? I thought we were just chatting over a few non-alcoholic beers ;-)
> You have shown remarkable patience and you've earned my admiration.
>
> verneThat was a strategy that proved very sucessful in some progressive movements in the 20th Century, but it largely fell out of favor in recent years, perhaps a result of global crowding, a loss of focus or a lack of remarkable leadership in that direction.
Thanks for the back rub.
MB
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 18:43:27
In reply to You tried, Emmy » Mary_Bowers, posted by gardenergirl on October 21, 2004, at 18:25:13
> Sometimes you just can't get your question answered. Perhaps it's the other half of the "we" and "our" that would provide it if she could (assuming it's not a royal "we").
Let's consider it a royal "we" and I will decline to name other members of the royal family. We are a growing family.
> With my apologies to the Stones:
> I can't get no-oh
> Satisfaction.
> I ain't found enough
> Cuh-um-passion.
> Though I try
> And I try
> And I try
> And I try...
>
> Everyone sing...
Compassion is an appreciation of the suffering of others, with a desire to resolve that suffering. Maybe the compassion extended to me in this thread could be expanded toward those for whom my compassion motivates my work here.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 21, 2004, at 18:49:16
In reply to Re: You tried, Emmy » gardenergirl, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 18:43:27
Maybe the compassion extended to me in this thread could be expanded toward those for whom my compassion motivates my work here.
Been there, still there, still doing that, thanks.
Ohmmmmmmmmm
Ohmmmmmmmmm
gg
>
>
Posted by gardenergirl on October 21, 2004, at 18:57:33
In reply to Re: You tried, Emmy » Mary_Bowers, posted by gardenergirl on October 21, 2004, at 18:49:16
Posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 20:00:47
In reply to whoops, that sounded defensive. Keep trying, gg (nm), posted by gardenergirl on October 21, 2004, at 18:57:33
I'm heading back home to my home at PsychCentral. Let me know how this turns out, eh?
As best I can summarize, I think there is supposed to be a group of mysterious people who shall gang up and sue Bob for emotional damage? Now, since spouses can't even seem to get "emotional damage" to stand up in court in divorce proceedings, I'd be interested to see how it could work in a class action suit against a web master....medical doctor or not.
I know NOTHING about law....but encouraging people to file what seems to be a unwinable law suit in the hopes of them making financial gain, seems to me, uncivil. Getting their hopes up, possibly costing them some court costs? It worries me.
Now, the idea of trying to file some charges against Bob's medical license... Ya'll know I'm not fan of Bob's administrative decisions. But, I still think it's ludicrous to try to blacken his medical license for his work at Babble. I don't think he's practicing medicine here, but, heck, as I said....I know nothing about law, let alone medical law. Do you actually want to try to end his career as a doctor, his entire livlihood, because you don't like the way he administers a website? Isn't that a wee bit drastic?
And scaring the people here into believing Babble might be shut down?? Well heck, that's just not nice. Most especially when you do it from behind a curtain...most Oz like.
Thanks for listening GG dahling. I just needed to vent before leaving.
emmy
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 23:05:16
In reply to Re: I give. » gardenergirl, posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 20:00:47
Whether or not Robert Hsiung's ongoing activities here are practice of medicine or not is a question that has not been tried. But there was a time when doctors practiced medicine in clinics, when people who needed residential care got it, and when psychiatric doctors directed self-help groups in clinical settings where *somebody* had to take ultimate responsibility for potential adverse outcomes that might result when patients were asked to lend each other support. The food chain, in those settings, led to an insurance firm that underwrote whatever risk clinics took in administering mutual self-help groups. The dynamic resulted in clients interests being considered by professional actuaries, who were trained to balance risks that participants or administrators might not fully understand, and to propose guidelines for avoiding adverse outcomes in the face of calculated risks.
Self-help has apparently been outsourced now, allowing clinicians to unburden themselves, or at least to try to unburden themselves, of the calculated risks they invite clients to take when directing them toward self-help groups. Clients are understandably nervous when they are at risk of loosing the only human contact they might get from a healing profession that has become more of a dispensing industry, and in which therapeutic human understanding is available primarily outside the purvey of professional experience.
It is understandable that some readers, in their fear of loosing the few non-chemical mental health services to which they have access, would think first of the worst possible outcome - that the group would be shut down and that a psychiatrist would loose his license. I dare say if a medical review board were to vote to yank a license, there would be strong evidence of failure to live up to professional obligations, so it would seem the risk he would loose his license is balanced by the fact that it would only happen if other doctors thought it necessary. More likely outcomes, if the Illinois professional standards presented above conflict with his practices, would be various reprimands or sanctions. An even more likely outcome is that attention to the standards under which he is operating a private practice offering internet peer support with no review by his professional peers will lead to changes in the way he interacts with his professional peers, perhaps eventually accepting their counsel in the way he administers this site, and perhaps causing him to accept lessons learned by his peers who operate other sites under the aegis of institutional guidelines.
As for civil action, such an outcome would only likely follow action by a medical review panel. Unless an advocacy group gets on board, which might result in unwanted baggage, few attorneys would take the case on spec, and few plaintiffs would dare risk potential countersuits. But what harm is there in considering the recourse available to participants in a group who often complain about psychological injuries resulting from poor administration? Is it harmful for mental health patients to consider and publicly discuss their civil rights?
It is worth considering whether Robert Hsuing would buy server space for self-help clients if he were not also buying for himself the professional prestige of controlling the project. Does he have enough confidence in any of his professional peers, anywhere, to allow them to share decision making power in a project to which he has donated money and professional service? If not, why not? Would he contribute the same measure of financial and personal resources to a foundation or established clinic that might be able to parlay his investment to gain further professional and technical assistance for clients in need of support and education, along with a greater degree of protection for the minority of participants who present symptoms of harm resulting from participation in the group?
Posted by jay on October 22, 2004, at 8:24:31
In reply to Remember when doctors practiced medicine? » TofuEmmy, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 23:05:16
Well, I think I and others can defend ourselves, and determine what's best for ourselves. If we had a problem with the way the board was set up, we could also (and do) speak for ourselves. I don't want or need anybody speaking for me. It's each of our own liberties to do what we wish, and participating on this board is one.
Jay
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 22, 2004, at 12:02:36
In reply to Individual Liberty.. » Mary_Bowers, posted by jay on October 22, 2004, at 8:24:31
> Well, I think I and others can defend ourselves, and determine what's best for ourselves. If we had a problem with the way the board was set up, we could also (and do) speak for ourselves. I don't want or need anybody speaking for me. It's each of our own liberties to do what we wish, and participating on this board is one.
>
> JayCertainly you would not assert that your liberty to act solely at your own discretion forecloses others' prerogative to consider opinions of informed individuals. The mission of this board is to provide support and education to others. How is it inappropriate that a person should provide supportive or educational information to members who exercise "Individual Liberties" to explore opinions that differ from yours?
I know your first person plural statement refers to some who agree with you, but I don't understand how you could be any more qualified than anyone else to make a first person plural statement that includes anyone who has ever participated in this board.
Are you saying that you can speak with authority for the entire group, but that I cannot possibly supportively inform particular interests of a few members of the group?
Posted by Toph on October 22, 2004, at 15:33:01
In reply to Mary B - How did Bob hurt you?, posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 15:35:42
Be assured that if Bob ever had to face a lawsuit (frivolous or otherwise) or a review of his peers, the postings of Mary_Bo would surely be used as evidence of the openness of his forum. A place where some guy with a beef can use a woman's name and flame the administator with impunity. This poster will also be used as evidence that there is no therapy here.
-Toph
Posted by Fi on October 22, 2004, at 16:29:21
In reply to Re: I give. » gardenergirl, posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 20:00:47
If you read this..
Its good to have a range of options- hope things go well at PsychCentral. I just wanted to say that if you havent left, or want to come back sometime, have a try of one of the other PB boards. A very different experience.
Fi
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2004, at 5:37:22
In reply to Re: I give. » gardenergirl, posted by TofuEmmy on October 21, 2004, at 20:00:47
> you've been mobbed.
>
> verne> that's just not nice.
>
> emmyPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by malthus on October 23, 2004, at 5:37:45
In reply to Re: I give.; sorry to loose you » TofuEmmy, posted by Fi on October 22, 2004, at 16:29:21
Posted by SLS on October 23, 2004, at 8:28:27
In reply to Re: did Bob hurt you?, posted by Toph on October 22, 2004, at 15:33:01
> Be assured that if Bob ever had to face a lawsuit (frivolous or otherwise) or a review of his peers, the postings of Mary_Bo would surely be used as evidence of the openness of his forum. A place where some guy with a beef can use a woman's name and flame the administator with impunity. This poster will also be used as evidence that there is no therapy here.
> -Toph
Don't give away the whole defense!:-)
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on October 23, 2004, at 20:28:21
In reply to Remember when doctors practiced medicine? » TofuEmmy, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 23:05:16
http://www.mtncartoons.com/cartoon_internetlawyer.htm
gg
Posted by crushedout on October 24, 2004, at 20:36:56
In reply to Remember when *lawyers* practiced law? » Mary_Bowers, posted by gardenergirl on October 23, 2004, at 20:28:21
that's perfect. and hilarious.
(personally, I'm enjoying "happiness is a warm gun" from the beatles' white album, but the stones are good, too. i think i like to embrace my anger more than you do, gg. :) )
Posted by gardenergirl on October 24, 2004, at 20:52:51
In reply to Re: Remember when *lawyers* practiced law? » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on October 24, 2004, at 20:36:56
Yeah, I'm just an old fashioned garden variety repressed gal. Glad you liked it!
Hmmm, I have the White Album, but I don't know that song. Have to check it out.
gg
Posted by crushedout on October 24, 2004, at 21:00:10
In reply to Re: Remember when *lawyers* practiced law? » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on October 24, 2004, at 20:52:51
i would never call you "repressed," gg. how about "mature"? "level-headed"? "on an even keel"? those labels seem less pejorative.
in other words, i meant to put myself down (jokingly, of course) -- not you.
you must check out the white album. been grooving to it all day. it's packed with good stuff.
sorry, dr. bob, we'll keep it admin!
Posted by AuntieMel on October 26, 2004, at 16:27:56
In reply to Re: Individuals » jay, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 22, 2004, at 12:02:36
One thing I learned was how to handle unwanted solicitations on the phone. I politely say 'thank you very much, but no thank you' and hang up.
So, Mary, whatever you're selling:
Thank you very much, but I'm not interested.
<click>
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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