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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 45 to 69 of 86. Go back in thread:
Posted by bride2be on October 15, 2004, at 18:59:34
In reply to Re: I have no trouble apologizing, posted by bride2be on October 15, 2004, at 18:54:26
maybe this mary lady popped out after reading all this shit that went on with me. did yall ever think about that. she may be looking out for innocent people like me that gets really hurt on a website like this. i dont know that that is true, but if there is a complete stranger looking out for me, thats more then i can say for dr bob and a couple others. that is really sad. quit being so mean to her. she helps people out. you all are so quick to jump on people. do you guys kill for dr bob too? i am beginning to wonder.
Posted by partlycloudy on October 15, 2004, at 19:14:33
In reply to Re: think about it, posted by bride2be on October 15, 2004, at 18:59:34
I thought you made your last post a while ago... change your mind??
Posted by bride2be on October 15, 2004, at 19:17:42
In reply to Re: think about it » bride2be, posted by partlycloudy on October 15, 2004, at 19:14:33
do you feel good when someone tells you they are depressed and you make a comment that makes me cry. you are mean, what dont you understand. leave me alone. gosh, you are a bitch! dont acted shocked, when some disclosed health problems and you keep on, you are asking for it. you must not know anyone with depression and ANXIETY OR YOU WOULD NOT KEEP TRYING ME.
Posted by verne on October 15, 2004, at 19:21:17
In reply to Re:all this drama has sunk me back into depression, posted by bride2be on October 15, 2004, at 18:52:45
I'm sorry you got pounced on when all you did was ask for a way to contact Mary B. Or did I miss something?
I'm also sorry if you've had a rough time here. I'm not really a veteran although I've been here off and on since 2000. I know what you're talking about when one feels like an outsider, having gone through some serious maulings myself at another site until I became a mostly immune "senior member" (ugh). The incrowd-outsider tension may be a problem with any message board.
I think, though, that Dr. Bob runs one of the safest sites I've ever encountered. Veterans will get blocked as soon as newcomers for uncivility.
The key for me is not take things personally. I try not to rise to the bait. I guess I don't get too "invested" in online discussions or empower others that much. I never did find cyber-relationships that fulfilling anyway.
verne
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 15, 2004, at 20:48:04
In reply to Re: think about it, posted by bride2be on October 15, 2004, at 18:59:34
> she may be looking out for innocent people like me that gets really hurt on a website like this. i dont know that that is true, but if there is a complete stranger looking out for me, thats more then i can say for dr bob and a couple others. that is really sad.
I wasn't looking out for you specifically in that instance, but categorically, yes, a complete stranger is looking out for you.
However, just because we are watching out for you doesn't mean we will be able to help. Often it does help just to begin defining the circumstances that can lead to injury.
Unfortunately, if an administrator decides it is okay to hurt a few for the benefit of others, denies that people are being hurt, or disparages those who attempt to explain how they were hurt, simply identifying the problem might not help. In such circumstances, it might be worthwhile to review other opportunities to find relief.
I'm not sure I can do much more than I've offered here, at least at this point in our research, but if you want to contact me, you may e-mail me at mary_bowers(at sign here)operamail.com. I'll try to reply, but i have a day job, and won't be able to individually reply to all messages if I turn out to be as popular an e-mail correspondent as I seem to be here on this page.
Posted by Toph on October 15, 2004, at 20:53:05
In reply to A civil venue for accusations, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 15, 2004, at 11:53:29
Mary, that thing you said about cyber addiction was true. I sat here on this seat so long I developed a decubitus sore. You've been so helpful today I was hoping you could do what my mommy did to my
booboos. ((
Posted by gardenergirl on October 15, 2004, at 21:25:40
In reply to Re: think about it---PC, posted by bride2be on October 15, 2004, at 19:17:42
Not your fault and certainly statements made recently are not what the rest of us, and I do feel comfortable speaking for the group, think!
Big huge hug for as long as you need.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 15, 2004, at 21:27:46
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations » Mary_Bowers, posted by Toph on October 15, 2004, at 20:53:05
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 16, 2004, at 4:25:33
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations » Mary_Bowers, posted by Toph on October 15, 2004, at 20:53:05
> PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION.
>
> partlycloudy> BUGGER OFF
>
> AuntieMel> You've been so helpful today I was hoping you could do what my mommy did to my booboos.
>
> TophI'm sorry I haven't been around, but I'd like again to ask everyone to be civil, which includes not pressuring others. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Toph on October 16, 2004, at 7:21:12
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Dr. Bob on October 16, 2004, at 4:25:33
I apologize for the scatological humor, whenever someone scratches my car I get this vengeful urge. I'll try to work on passively accepting this kind of vandalism from now on.
This group is an amorphous living thing composed of independent living cells. Their connecting bond may be tenuous but it is real, having at least something to do with a mutual desire to congregate with similar cells and, in part, because of a love-hate feeling for you, I suppose. When attacked, the group goes into the fight-flight mode like any living entity. When I told Mary to 'kiss my *ss' it was only because she scratched my damn car. If I deserve a time out maybe its for the best. I've been kind of hypo-manic lately and PB hasn't helped.
-Toph
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 16, 2004, at 16:07:03
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on October 16, 2004, at 7:21:12
> I apologize for the scatological humor, whenever someone scratches my car I get this vengeful urge. I'll try to work on passively accepting this kind of vandalism from now on.
>
> When attacked, the group goes into the fight-flight mode like any living entity.Thanks. Urges like that are understandable, but two wrongs don't make a right. And there are other alternatives besides fight, flight, and passive acceptance. And living entities heal when scratched...
Bob
Posted by Toph on October 16, 2004, at 17:33:56
In reply to Re: scratches, posted by Dr. Bob on October 16, 2004, at 16:07:03
> Thanks. Urges like that are understandable, but two wrongs don't make a right. And there are other alternatives besides fight, flight, and passive acceptance... >
> BobOh, that's right, Bob. I completely forgot about weggies.
-Toph
Posted by saw on October 18, 2004, at 2:16:09
In reply to Re: think about it » bride2be, posted by partlycloudy on October 15, 2004, at 19:14:33
Partlycloudy, you have my full support and agreement on this subject.
I won't say anymore than that!
Sabrina
Posted by alesta on October 21, 2004, at 4:00:56
In reply to A civil venue for accusations, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 15, 2004, at 11:53:29
I am not quite sure what all this debating is about over here on admin, but I would like to speak out..as one of those individuals who unwittingly became nearly suicidal after one of my "productive discussions" with dr. bob, I am advocating a need for change in this forum. Just because you yourself have not been traumatized by the admin experience doesn't undermine those who have. I suffered greatly and needlessly. This is something I never expected to happen at a forum supporting mental health. I feel this combination of puritanical civility guidelines and an admin board to debate them is a recipe for disaster, and is not in the best interests of its members. I hope that my view here is not pounced upon and rejected, but this is a risk I'm taking. And until you have been in one of those notoriously frustrating, fruitless coversations with dr. bob under the guise that you're actually making progress, I suppose you will never understand why he evokes such strong emotions in some of us e.g. atticus, and other people I know who shall remain nameless. There are other communities without all this stressful debating and civility guidelines and they are calmer, more supportive environments to be in. Perhaps Dr. Bob could learn something from those sites.
I may not return here to admin in an effort to protect my mental health, as I know all too well how uncivil it can get here. But I just wanted to express my opinion. Thanks for listening.
amy :)
Posted by SLS on October 21, 2004, at 6:51:49
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 15, 2004, at 12:19:51
> Do they claim to be interactive medical education sites administered by a physician?
What if this same site were administered by a plumber?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 21, 2004, at 7:10:00
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 15, 2004, at 13:59:20
> If people would suffer from the site being shut down, that suggests a clinical relationship in which the site is operated to relieve suffering,
I think this statement might represent an important error in logic. I think there would be people who would suffer from the shut down of just about any kind of support forum, despite a lack of a clinical relationship with a moderator. I think there would even be people who would suffer from the shut down of CNN. Support and education can exist independent of medical clinical management. If you will notice, Dr. Hsiung NEVER submits posts offering medical clinical advise. He could just as well be a plumber in the way he functions here. Even plumbers have opinions as to what constitutes civil discourse. Does a plumber have the option of moderating his website in the way he pleases? I don't know.
- Scott
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 21, 2004, at 13:04:35
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations » Mary_Bowers, posted by SLS on October 21, 2004, at 7:10:00
Sorry, this only came to me last night.
Is this a Dr Bob thing, or are you doing the same for other Doctors who run peer support sites?? Are you also building a case against Dr Grohol for example?
Thankyou,
Nikki
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 13:22:00
In reply to Mary Bowers, posted by NikkiT2 on October 21, 2004, at 13:04:35
> Sorry, this only came to me last night.
>
> Is this a Dr Bob thing, or are you doing the same for other Doctors who run peer support sites?? Are you also building a case against Dr Grohol for example?
>
> Thankyou,
>
> NikkiI understand this discussion has grown lengthy and not all of the content is clear, potentially frustrating the efforts of some to understand my style of support education.
I think I stated early on that our reviews have suggested sites administered by medical professional where administration is the product of an interactive group of professionals tend to be less harmful to a minority of participants than are sites such as this where a single practitioner formulates policies for use of an emerging technology without the benefit of an empowered and interactive group of administrative peers. Evidence that some people have expressed a sense of being hurt while participating here is abundant, especially in the archives of this administrative page. Robert Hsiung's consistent reply has been that this site can't be all things to all people, and that those who might feel hurt here can go elsewhere. Our hypothesis is that if there is a way for him to reduce the frequency of incidences of harm here, including participating in an empowered administrative group of peers that can override his policies, he has an obligation to either provide those protections or to advise participants he is not employing available means to protect them from his own misjudgements or from harm resulting from his experimental approaches.
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 13:26:51
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations » Mary_Bowers, posted by SLS on October 21, 2004, at 6:51:49
> > Do they claim to be interactive medical education sites administered by a physician?
>
> What if this same site were administered by a plumber?
>
>
> - Scott
Then no one could reasonably develop an expecation that they are participating in a site administered by a medical professional, and no one could appeal to medical licensing authorities for relief. But if the plumber suggested that he or she is offering the benefit of clinical and professional medical experience in administration of the site, he could potentially be called before licensing authorities for practicing without a license.
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 13:45:38
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations » Mary_Bowers, posted by SLS on October 21, 2004, at 7:10:00
Persistent offerings of opinions by a psychiatrist deliniating what is civil and what is not civil can be viewed as medical opinions about appropriate behavior. If a licensed plumber called people uncivil for posting information that conflicts with the opinion of the plumber, he could potentially face action by other plumbers whose opinions he has called people uncivil for embracing. People can civilly call other peoples opinins wrong, or specious. But they may not call other people uncivil for holding those reasonable opinions contradicting the opinions of others. The plumber can offer contrary opinions, but when he calls expressin of those respected opinions of other professionals uncivil, he would seem to be committing an element of a libelous offense, specifically by suggesting that others are earning a living my innappropriate means.
I am starting to wonder if the interpretation of civil Hsiung proffers is in fact composed by attorneys. Statements that could make others feel hurt or put down could be interpreted as libelous, so he might have a compelling reason to systematically exclude them. But since an attorney might have offered a legal opinion that Hsiung offers as the opinion of a phsyciatrist about what is "Civil", it is easy for clients to reach the conclusion that civility is a medical, rather than a legal standard. Civility, from the perspective of a doctor, implies behavioral and character standards. The standard at play, however, seems to be a legal standard designed to protect Hsiung not from malpractice suits, but from libel suits for facilitating the publication of libelous statements.
From a medical regulatory standpoint, questions might arise over his failure to recognize as an artifact of his experience repeated misunderstandings among those he says have not been civil. I don't think we will find any other places on the Internet, certainly not at medically oriented sites operated by medical professionals, where a mental health practitioner persistently identifies writings of invited guests as not civil.
In case anyone is mulling over the related question, criticisms posted here of Robert Hsiungs practices are not liable to be seen as actionable libel because this is a context in which Hsiung has invited review of his administrative practice.
Posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 13:48:02
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations, posted by alesta on October 21, 2004, at 4:00:56
Posted by partlycloudy on October 21, 2004, at 16:42:16
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 13:45:38
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2004, at 8:22:38
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations » SLS, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 13:26:51
> > > Do they claim to be interactive medical education sites administered by a physician?
> >
> > What if this same site were administered by a plumber?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> Then no one could reasonably develop an expecation that they are participating in a site administered by a medical professional, and no one could appeal to medical licensing authorities for relief. But if the plumber suggested that he or she is offering the benefit of clinical and professional medical experience in administration of the site, he could potentially be called before licensing authorities for practicing without a license.
>
It doesn't appear to me that Dr. Hsiung is practicing medicine. This is where all of your arguments might fall short. The presumptions of those who might interact here are just that, presumptions. It is up to the individual across the entire Internet to apply caution when using any site as a source of information or socialization. Caveat emptor must be the motto for anyone surfing the Net.Are the civility guidelines and their enforcement the only aspects of this site that troubles you? If not, can you be specific as to what are the others?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2004, at 8:50:15
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations, posted by Mary_Bowers on October 21, 2004, at 13:45:38
> Persistent offerings of opinions by a psychiatrist deliniating what is civil and what is not civil can be viewed as medical opinions about appropriate behavior.
Again, this is an assumption being made by the individual for which there are no stated prescriptions of medical practice anywhere on the site.
> If a licensed plumber called people uncivil for posting information that conflicts with the opinion of the plumber, he could potentially face action by other plumbers whose opinions he has called people uncivil for embracing.
Can you cite a precedent for this in law? I don't think so.
> Civility, from the perspective of a doctor, implies behavioral and character standards.
Again, this would be an assumption made on the part of the individual for which the individual is solely responsible. Dr. Hsiung is acting as a moderator of his site, nothing more.
> From a medical regulatory standpoint, questions might arise over his failure to recognize as an artifact of his experience repeated misunderstandings among those he says have not been civil.
Again, Dr. Hsiung is not practicing medicine. I doubt his behavior here could possibly fall under the perview of a medical regulatory agency. Whether or not his behavior is liable for civil action is a point of law for which you might want to provide precedents.
> I don't think we will find any other places on the Internet, certainly not at medically oriented sites operated by medical professionals, where a mental health practitioner persistently identifies writings of invited guests as not civil.
The uniqueness of any site on the Internet is irrelevant to the issues you are proclaiming as actionable.
> In case anyone is mulling over the related question, criticisms posted here of Robert Hsiungs practices are not liable to be seen as actionable libel because this is a context in which Hsiung has invited review of his administrative practice.
Where do you get this stuff from? There can't possibly be any such limit to libel in law. Can you cite any precedent for this? If not, you should not make such statements as if they were points of law.
I think you might be investing your time in an endeavor for which you have little chance of succeeding. I am counting on your not knowing anything about which you speak.
- Scott
Posted by AuntieMel on October 22, 2004, at 10:18:54
In reply to Re: A civil venue for accusations » Mary_Bowers, posted by SLS on October 22, 2004, at 8:50:15
Things were a lot more interesting when our opinions differed.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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