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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 65. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 8:58:02
In reply to Lou's response to SLS-2 » Lou Pilder, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 8:29:58
But I can't say for certain, as I'm not as familiar with the thread as to be certain.
It always saddens me to see the "God of the Old Testament" referred to as anything but the "God of the New Testament". I can't imagine that that was the idea, because it would have been all too easy to scrap the Old Testament if that were true. While it is true that I am a semitophile, I feel similar distress at similar types of statements about the "God of Islam".
Isn't it possible, and on the Faith Board preferable, to phrase one's own spirituality in such a way as to not in any way put down the God or the faith or the spirituality of another?
I don't really want to get enbroiled in this. But I love God. The God of Israel and Isaac and Jesus. I am generally considered a pariah at church for saying just this sort of thing.
I understand that others feel differently.
Perhaps it would be helpful to conduct a poll of devout Jews only? Or perhaps I could locate a website of devout Jews and ask them to come comment on whether the thread is considered respectful to their faith and their God? I hate to speak for others, and perhaps they wouldn't be offended. I don't know that it would be easy to find a group who would be willing to comment, but there are several synagogues here, and perhaps I could bring the printouts to several rabbis and see if any of the more computer literate are willing to comment.
They may not be, however. I have called the local rabbi of the reform synagogue more than once to cry on his shoulder at my distress in Sunday School at hearing the Law and the "God of the Old Testament??" and similar things spoken of disrespectfully, and he always encourages me to continue to go to Sunday School.
Toph seems to have an idea of what I am trying to say, but less colored by my distress. Perhaps Toph would be willing to explain it more coherently than I can?
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2004, at 9:51:51
In reply to I think I agree with Lou, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 8:58:02
> It always saddens me to see the "God of the Old Testament" referred to as anything but the "God of the New Testament".
Was the "God of the Old Testament" referred to at all?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20040729/msgs/388469.html
Bob
Posted by Toph on September 17, 2004, at 10:13:03
In reply to I think I agree with Lou, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 8:58:02
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 10:50:37
In reply to Lou's request to Dr. Hsiung for expungment-388469, posted by Lou Pilder on September 11, 2004, at 13:48:33
Dr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...does it mention the God of the old testament...].
It is the potential for others to think that the God of the old testament is being referrrred to by the author. The poster that posted it wrote that he/she thought so. That is evidence that the words chosen by Mark Medford lead others to believe that. Since the potential for that to be seen is there, it can br seen. It is my concern that others also could make that same observation and lead to some type of discussion that could have the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings. Why not just post something to the post by the poster that responded to my request for clarification by writing that[... he/she thinks that it is the god of the old testament..]with something like [...please rephrase...] or [...this is not supportive...]? That way, his/her respomse would not be seen as the forum endorsing his/her response.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 11:25:12
In reply to Re: references, posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2004, at 9:51:51
The reference was in a followup post by the poster of the original post, so I'm guessing that would be representative of the intent of the poster, if not the poet.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 11:26:49
In reply to Re: references, posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2004, at 9:51:51
But the keywords in the poem also make it more likely than not that that was also the intent of the poet.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 11:51:00
In reply to Lou's response to SLS » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 8:11:39
Against my better judgement, I feel the need to post to this thread...
Lou Pilder wrote:
> The faith board has a stipulation that posts can not have the potewntial to put down those of other faiths.Actually, neither the faith board description nor links provided on it use the word "potential" in their cautions. I think if the standard were to be that one must decide on posts' merits based on their "potential" to evoke feelings of any kind then that likely would go well beyond the moderator's ability and stamina to maintain. In addition, it would take the established civility standards into the realm of possible instead of actual, which is also difficult if not impossible to judge.
I'd like to add that whether a post has said potential is no less relevant than what is within the reader of the post. A post cannot evoke a feeling that is not already there in some degree. The opposite of feeling is indifference. If the reader of a post is indifferent, then nothing in the post can evoke a potential feeling. How do you judge, then just one side of the dynamic?
Thus, I believe that the post is within the civility guidelines as set forth by Dr. Bob. That does not mean that the post might not evoke certain feelings. Clearly it already has. But revising or sanctioning a post based on its *potential* for evoking feelings is not appropriate as I understand the rules of the Faith Board.
Regards,
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 12:08:20
In reply to Re: Lou's response to SLS » Lou Pilder, posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 11:51:00
I fail to see how it is more offensive to say that "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me." than to say about someone's god "a cantankerous bearded patriarchal figure to please, oh yes, smite your enemies
might be a bit antiquated."Similar controversies have arisen on PBPsych, and I believe that Dr. Bob has finally come to the conclusion that respect is a necessary component to discussion. "a cantankerous bearded patriarchal figure to please, oh yes, smite your enemies might be a bit antiquated." doesn't appear to me to be all that respectful to my God.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 12:11:02
In reply to Re: But » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 12:08:20
I have no illusions that I can change the hearts and minds of others, including Dr. Bob. I stated my position, affirmed my love for the Lord my God, and now withdraw from the discussion.
Carry on.
Posted by SLS on September 17, 2004, at 12:23:06
In reply to Lou's response to SLS » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 8:11:39
> The faith board has a stipulation that posts can not have the potewntial to put down those of other faiths.
Hi Lou.
I think the poem you are referring to could indeed be interpreted as an attack upon a belief system in that forum, and I think some acknowledgment of that possibility might be justified. However, I think the two of us disagree as to whether the content of the poem is anti-semitic. Even if you can prove the intent of the author as being so, it still does not make the words such as they are written. I hope you allow me to disagree with your interpretation of them. I can understand yours. Still, anti-semitism is not the issue. Belief systems are. If that remains the focus, perhaps some resolution can be found.
- Scott
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 17, 2004, at 12:38:46
In reply to Lou's respons to Larry Hoover » Larry Hoover, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 8:56:26
> Larry Hoover,
> You wrote,[...a failure to agree to disagree can be...a put down....].
> Are you saying that I can not object here to have the statement deleted or admonished or redirected that writes, [...the God of the old testament... reevaluated perhaps as not-so-divine..]? I am giving my closing argument as to why I consider the statement a violation of the stated rules for the faith board as to not posting what could put down those of other faiths. Are you saying that the statement in question does not have the potential for others to see that the statement puts down another faith?Lou PilderYou ask complex questions, Lou. As such, I cannot answer. I can only re-express myself.
I do not see it as a put down of any faith, period. I see a convocation to the god within us all. The divine is more than an image.
Lar
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 12:43:17
In reply to Re: But » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 12:08:20
Dinah,
Your post makes a lot of sense to me. However, I was responding more to the construction of the argument rather than the content, which is why I prefaced it with my caveat. I guess I could have been more clear. I'm in no position to get involved in the specifics of the post's content. Just not my area. I just wanted to comment on what I perceived as a slippery area of Lou's argument. Perhaps I am reading the rules too literally, though.gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 13:15:25
In reply to Re: Lou's response to SLS » Lou Pilder, posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 11:51:00
Gardengirl,
You wrote,[...the word "potential" is not used in the cautions of the rules...].
One rule states,[...do not ...anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down...].
I think that {could lead} is equivalant to {potential to}.
Lou
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 14:41:27
In reply to Lou's response to gardengirl » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 13:15:25
Good point. I suppose that Dr. Bob attempts to determine the liklihood of a post leading to others' feeling put down or accused when making his decisions.
Regards,
gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 15:18:34
In reply to Re: references » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 11:26:49
Dinah,
You wrote,[...the key words in the poem make it more likely...the intent of the poet...].
I am greatly appreciative of your observations of the {key words} in the poem.
I have not commented on some of the key words in the poem as of yet. I will do so in my continueing of my closing argument. I think that you already know about how the doctrine of "replacement theology" has the potential to be seen in the author's and the poster's posts.
Lou pilder
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 16:22:39
In reply to Lou's reply to Dinah » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 15:18:34
I wouldn't say I understand it, because my religioius scholarship only extends in certain directions.
By replacement theology do you mean things like the remarks made by my Sunday School members that Jesus, by dying for our sins, had negated or made extraneous God's covenant with the nation of Israel, with the quote from John having to do with Christ having nailed the Law to the Cross as a biblical confirmation?
If that is what replacement theology means, I don't see any hint of that in the poem. If I recall correctly (and I may not) the poem has more to do with looking for the God within as opposed to an external God, which to my knowledge is not traditional Christian theology (Christian theology emphasizing an external God) but more of an Eastern concept. Therefore I doubt replacement theology is intended to be the goal of the poem.
Unless you mean something completely different by replacement theology, in which case... Never mind. :)
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 17:42:27
In reply to Re: I think you did well, Dinah. (nm), posted by Toph on September 17, 2004, at 10:13:03
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 19:51:50
In reply to Re: Lou's response to SLS » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on September 17, 2004, at 12:23:06
SLS,
You wrote,[...the poem could be interpreted as an attack...] and, [...disagree as to it being antisemitic...].
The fear that I have is that it the potential is there to arrouse antisemitic feelings, not that the poem is antisemitic.
I am asking that the potential for that to happen be stopped by the administration before it occurs. I feel that if the adminitration allows it to go unadmonished, then it is possible that othwers could think that the forum endorses what others have posted as to what can be seen in the poem. Your observation that [...the poem could be...]shows to me that there is a very real threat of that happening.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 19:55:44
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dinah » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 16:22:39
Dinah,
You wrote,[...if this is different, then...].
Well, it is different from that.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 19:56:46
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dinah-rt » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 19:55:44
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2004, at 0:19:56
In reply to Re: references » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 11:25:12
> The reference was in a followup post by the poster of the original post
Ah, I see:
> > I interpreted the "cantankerous bearded patriarchal figure" generally to be the image of the vengeful God from the old testament... The emphasis of the poem seems to be that we should focus on love and offer kindness and beauty rather than promoting revenge and war.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20040729/msgs/389675.html
Even if the main idea is love and kindness and beauty, "cantankerous" and "vengeful" could lead others to feel their faith has been put down. Sorry about not appreciating that before, I'll post something there.
Bob
Posted by SLS on September 18, 2004, at 8:10:54
In reply to Lou's response to SLS-ptaasf » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 17, 2004, at 19:51:50
Hi Lou.
> The fear that I have is that it the potential is there to arrouse antisemitic feelings, not that the poem is antisemitic.
Unfortunately, there will always be people looking for reasons to hate. Judging words is difficult. Policing them can be dangerous to liberty. Attempting to police the thoughts that words have only the potential to elicit is perhaps more dangerous yet.
I think your best bet is to express your concerns and feelings along the original thread in a straight forward manner for everyone to see. In my opinion, you have not done that. You have only asked rhetorical questions that are probably more provocative than demonstrative.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 18, 2004, at 8:34:48
In reply to Re: references, posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2004, at 0:19:56
Hi Doctor.
I think your post was very appropriate.
Thank you.
- Scott
> > The reference was in a followup post by the poster of the original post
>
> Ah, I see:
>
> > > I interpreted the "cantankerous bearded patriarchal figure" generally to be the image of the vengeful God from the old testament... The emphasis of the poem seems to be that we should focus on love and offer kindness and beauty rather than promoting revenge and war.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20040729/msgs/389675.html
>
> Even if the main idea is love and kindness and beauty, "cantankerous" and "vengeful" could lead others to feel their faith has been put down. Sorry about not appreciating that before, I'll post something there.
>
> Bob
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 9:06:39
In reply to Re: references, posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2004, at 0:19:56
And just as I was concluding it wasn't worth spending emotional capital on things I have no possibility of influencing. :)
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 18, 2004, at 18:47:02
In reply to Re: Thanks, Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 9:06:39
> And just as I was concluding it wasn't worth spending emotional capital on things I have no possibility of influencing. :)
Friends, I would like to thank evryone for their patience durring this adjudication. My particular thanks to Dinah and Toph who I feel went the extra mile.
Lou
This is the end of the thread.
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