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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by malthus on September 3, 2004, at 13:57:31
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » Dr. Bob, posted by Atticus on September 2, 2004, at 18:00:26
Hi Atticus:
I have read the evolution of this thread and understand fully why you are taking a break from posting. I am heavyhearted that you are feeling worse than you did before your hospitalization. I had a strange feeling of deja-vu about you when I sat down to write this and don't fully understand it. I know from my experiences with depression (and you have mentioned this before) about the mask that has to be put on to get through the day when feeling utterly slaughtered inside. And to make matters worse the whole business of protecting family and friends is absolutely draining.
I realize that the following may be "breaking the rules" but I don't give a #*@~ (rhymes with "cram".): If you feel like communicating with me please, please e-mail me:
malthusdog@yahoo.com I need to know you are not thinking about anything "shiny". I've had to force back unpleasant images in the past month of my car impacting a large tree but starting back on Zyprexa has enabled me to push them down although I've gained 10 lbs. yuk >:( ! I wonder if pushing them down with medication is the best way to go. I've read a lot about how ecstasy therapy with a qualified professional (I've never taken it) has helped many people with depression but I guess the images of brain cells being killed (doesn't alcohol do this as well with absolutely no therapeutic effect?) has been a deterrent. I'm going to post this over on Writing in case you are not checking this particular thread anymore (don't blame you.)malthus who will not appear sad-faced or serious when she knows Atticus is well
Posted by AuntieMel on September 3, 2004, at 15:05:44
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » AuntieMel, posted by Atticus on September 3, 2004, at 13:54:36
Hey, I agree with you. Rules *should* be re-evaluated on a continuous basis. And anyone that disagree with them should fight against them. [I came of age in the late 60s, early 70s and I've done my share of trying to change rules:)]
I'm just saying that since this rule *does* exist, it would be unfair to let a group of people off the hook, no matter how good the cause, because then pandora's box has been opened and everyone will want the same treatment.
And what I was saying is this rule is one of the few that are cut and dry.
I'm not taking sides here, just explaining my thinking. I get distressed enough over the subjective rulings as it is.
Peace?
Posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 15:25:00
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » AuntieMel, posted by Atticus on September 3, 2004, at 13:54:36
atticus, man, i hear you, and completely agree! i just read your post, and feel better, b/c i just felt the same way, like this issue is so intricate yet some posters come in and say things that oversimplify it and try and make you look like you're wrong but you know you're not...they're just not seeing the 100 billion angles to this thing...i am becoming very frustrated and can relate 100% to your comment about wanting to forget trying to discuss this stuff for your own mental health. there's someone here that gets it, dude! please write back! i need support...:)did i tell you i love your posts? i think you're brilliant..can be lonely at the top, huh?
amy :)
Posted by Jai Narayan on September 3, 2004, at 15:55:03
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate--atticus-write me, posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 15:25:00
Posted by Atticus on September 3, 2004, at 16:26:00
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate--atticus-write me, posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 15:25:00
OK, Alesta,
I just posted a new poem, dedicated to Jai and Malthus, on Writing. Read it, make a few brief comments on it (it's about meeting my ex-wife when we were both 18) just to satisfy the powers that be that we're conversing about writing, and we'll take our discussion from there to Social. Writing is where I can be found from now on. But I do ask that you don't talk about Babble world. I feel that any attempt at change here is a lost cause, a topic no longer of any interest to me. On Sunday, I marched with 200,000 people in my home town and came away feeling I could move the whole planet. On Tuesday, I watched a virtual-reality bloodbath on this site, one person blocked after the other so fast that the cyberbodies stacked up like cordwood, and I felt powerless to do anything. Go figure. Atticus
Posted by JenStar on September 3, 2004, at 17:10:04
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » JenStar, posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 1:35:38
hi gg,
thanks for your post! I think it's great that you followed your gut/heart with that student situation, and gave her a second chance, even though she didn't follow up herself. At least YOU did the right thing and probably (I'm guessing) slept better for it. The idea of the syllabus as a contract is interesting -- I never thought of it that way before. Cool concept.I do think it's wise to allow some "wiggle room" in most rule sets; without it we could end up in dangerous or nonsensical situations.
In this case, though, I'm OK with the rules as they are (and the results). I'd probably accept it if the general rules change, too, as long as the changes aren't too exotic and complex. (Who am I kidding...I like babble enough that I'd come here even if we had to start every post with the words "Purple elephant!")
I agree that when people all cluster to a topic it's usually from a genuine concern. But I also think there can be the lure of the bandwagon at play; people can sometimes feel compelled to be part of a movement or an uprising especially if things in 'real life' are stressful.
I'm making a parallel to my own life (and I know it's not fair to always extrapolate to "everyone" from "me", but it's a start!) -- I personally tend to respond to the curser/rude posts with my own venom when I'm feeling especially trodden upon, ignored, or incapable of saying how I really feel about stuff IRL. I believe that happens to others, too -- emotions and issues IRL can affect the type of response given here on babble. Sometimes things gain momentum and people get on board, working from strong emotions which are fired by other emotions they read in posts.
I also think that when people cluster to see an issues as "Dr. Bob vs XX poster" it can be a rebellion against the authority of Dr. Bob as the overseer, a desire to draw him out into deeper conversation or to have him show personal feeling/thoughts (which makes him into a peer), or to express frustration with the fact that although he runs this board and he's a doctor, he's unavailable for personal assistance.Just my 2 cents...(hopefully not said in an uncivil way!)
take care,
JenStar
Posted by AuntieMel on September 3, 2004, at 17:31:56
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » AuntieMel, posted by Atticus on September 3, 2004, at 13:54:36
I just always try to see it in terms of 'fairness.' And I guess I was hoping Dr. Bob would answer my questions.{sigh}
Posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 17:31:58
In reply to Oh my, Atticus we all love you.....:-) (nm), posted by Jai Narayan on September 3, 2004, at 15:55:03
don't get the wrong idea, jai...i'm just relieved that there's someone else here who can relate to how crappy i feel right now...perhaps i laid it on too thick...:)
amy :)
Posted by Jai Narayan on September 3, 2004, at 20:20:46
In reply to Re: Oh my, Atticus we all love you.....:-) » Jai Narayan, posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 17:31:58
Dear Amy, my feeling is we can never love too much. I was serious....we do love Atticus so much. He's so amazing. I was serious. A note about me....I always mean what I say.
I appreciate all who care and give support. There's nothing wrong with support and love.
So you are great and really kind to give support to Atticus right now and whenever.
God knows, we all blossom from love and support.
I welcome you to support me when I need it.
Thanks.
Posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 21:13:38
In reply to Re: Oh my, Atticus we all love you.....:-), posted by Jai Narayan on September 3, 2004, at 20:20:46
thank you, jai, for interpreting the meaning behind your words...:) well, then, on that note, i wish you love...:)
Love,
amy
Posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 21:52:40
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » gardenergirl, posted by JenStar on September 3, 2004, at 17:10:04
Purple Elephant... ;)
I don't think your post was uncivil. It was nice to hear more from you. I think you hit on something important here. Stress and depression do play a big role in posting, at least for me. I know when I am more depressed, I write less and probalby come across sounding more abrupt and impersonal. Later I see it and cringe because it doesn't feel like the real me.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
gg
Posted by Jai Narayan on September 3, 2004, at 22:13:03
In reply to Re: Oh my, Atticus we all love you.....:-)--jai, posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 21:13:38
Posted by AuntieMel on September 3, 2004, at 23:11:11
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » JenStar, posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 21:52:40
Posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 23:25:19
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate, posted by JenStar on September 2, 2004, at 13:27:32
<I'm not poking fun or insults at anyone who suggested a petition; please don't read that into my notes.
well, i don't think anyone was reading that into your notes..but it sure looks like you are poking fun and insulting now...i don't appreciate your "cleverly disguised" insult...*i'm* the one who started the petition. if you're aiming to hit a nerve, well you have succeeded.
amy
Posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 23:26:54
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate, posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 23:25:19
Posted by AuntieMel on September 3, 2004, at 23:55:32
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate, posted by alesta on September 3, 2004, at 23:25:19
I'm sorry, but I didn't read it that way at all. I hate putting words in someone else's mouth, but I'm going to do it anyway(smile)
What Jen seems to me to be saying is that exceptions can make enforcement a lot trickier. The paragraph above it was using a petition, plus a lot of other things as an example of how complicated it can get.
And I think that Jen, who is a very sensitive person, added the bit about not poking fun because she was genuinely worried about it. I've never known her to be mean, and it's hard for me to think she is being mean in this case.
It's been a long day and a long struggle. I think we all need some rest.
Peace?
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2004, at 1:38:19
In reply to This wears on me, too » Atticus, posted by AuntieMel on September 3, 2004, at 17:31:56
> I also think that when people cluster to see an issues as "Dr. Bob vs XX poster" it can be a rebellion against the authority of Dr. Bob as the overseer, a desire to draw him out into deeper conversation or to have him show personal feeling/thoughts (which makes him into a peer), or to express frustration with the fact that although he runs this board and he's a doctor, he's unavailable for personal assistance.
>
> JenStarThose are interesting theories, thanks for sharing your reflections on this...
--
> I guess I was hoping Dr. Bob would answer my questions.
Sorry, let me try to go back...
> What *was* chemist's block for.
See:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/384795.html
> It's the subjective ones I have real problems with.
>
> conviction should be based on 'beyond a reasonable doubt.'
>
> AuntieMelWouldn't reasonable be subjective, too?
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on September 4, 2004, at 9:26:14
In reply to Re: This wears on me, too, posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2004, at 1:38:19
Maybe that's where the jury system comes in:)
Posted by alesta on September 4, 2004, at 10:22:18
In reply to Re: This wears on me, too, posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2004, at 1:38:19
dr. bob,
i think that if you would have just been specific from the beginning and let us know what the exact reason *was*, it would have saved us all a lot of heartache..i don't know why we are even discussing this with you if we aren't going to get anywhere. you argued with me over some points, finally agreed that my points were good ones, and that's it? so i got through to you, but now nothing's happening...what was the point of all this "discussion" then?
amy
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 10:26:53
In reply to Re: This wears on me, too, posted by Dr. Bob on September 4, 2004, at 1:38:19
This may sound odd, but thank you for admitting that. I think it's something we sometimes infer from your posts, but is easy to overlook.
It certainly helps me to understand a bit better if I keep that in mind.
Posted by alesta on September 4, 2004, at 10:32:36
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » alesta, posted by AuntieMel on September 3, 2004, at 23:55:32
yes, i do want peace, too, but i know a backhanded insult when i see one. i am not feeling very *peaceful* after reading her disguised insult. she may have fooled some people here, but she hasn't fooled me. i respectfully disagree.
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 10:36:49
In reply to dr. bob, posted by alesta on September 4, 2004, at 10:22:18
I don't think it's intentional on Dr. Bob's part. I think he doesn't always understand what we want from him, especially in longer posts. I find I get the most coherent explanations if I state my question as briefly as possible, wait for an answer and determine what page Dr. Bob is on, then reframe my question (again briefly) to thank him but to explain that it didn't quite answer my question, which was more xxxx. At some point our understandings often (though not always) meet, and I understand what he's thinking even if I don't agree and vice versa. Not always though, I must admit. Once I understand what he's thinking, I sometimes try to convert him to my point of view. That doesn't work nearly as often. :)
Dr. Bob is generally a patient man, and if I am equally patient, I can often (though by no means always) get answers. Maybe not the answers I want, but ones I can understand. But I really don't think it's purposeful on his part. It might be a function of how busy he is. Or it might be that he doesn't hear the way I write.
Posted by alesta on September 4, 2004, at 11:10:26
In reply to Re: dr. bob, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 10:36:49
> I don't think it's intentional on Dr. Bob's part. I think he doesn't always understand what we want from him, especially in longer posts.
I’m not saying it was intentional..i’m not attacking dr. bob..i’m just trying to keep us on track and remind him of what the purpose was for these discussions in the first place..I’m not doing all of this for my health :)a couple of days ago, everyone here was attacking dr. bob and upset with him. this upset me. i posted a few nice comments about dr. bob, basically saying that he was not a bad guy, but that we simply had an issue that we were discussing. (i wanted all the dr. bob "hate" to stop.) this completely turned the tide around here. and so now everyone is siding with him on this issue and turning on me..i guess that's what i get for caring so much about everyone...i don't dislike dr. bob, i'm not attacking him, but there is an issue that still needs closure here.
all of this discussion has taken a serious toll on me...i am considering leaving this forum for good, b/c i am not receiving the same kind of empathy that i try to give others...
amy
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 11:18:30
In reply to Re: Being Compassionate » alesta, posted by AuntieMel on September 3, 2004, at 23:55:32
I have this desire to share something I learned about myself on Babble, but it feels horribly presumptuous of me to do it, so please feel free to ignore the entire post. And please realize that my intentions are good.
When I first came to Babble and for a reasonably long time later, I felt the need to play peacemaker, especially if I cared about all the people involved or if I felt that there was a simple misunderstanding at the core. There were a lot of reasons behind my need, not least of which was that it was my job in my family of origin to do exactly this. And my family of origin let me be very effective in this role.
But I was continually frustrated on Babble. Not only did all the posters not immediately thank me and see the wisdom of what I had to say, but it often (to my intense dismay) led to exchanges in which worse things were said than were said initially.
I'm not saying it never worked. It did sometimes. And I've seen it work when other people did it too. And I've been the recipient where I reacted overly quickly to a post from a poster who, had I reflected, would have been unlikely to say what I thought I read and another poster was able to help me see that I was probably in error.
I have also frequently been in the position where something I said was taken in a way different from how I intended it (I must express myself poorly at times), and I know that a supportive post from another poster really helped me feel better about it. I think I've resolved my internal conflict about that by waiting to see how things play out. Sometimes the posters are able to work it out themselves (unlike my parents). Other times someone is hurt, and I extend support to the hurt poster. That's the response that I figured out was best for me, and I'm certainly not suggesting that the response that is best for you would be similar.
So I'm certainly not condemning the peacemaker role. I just wanted to extend a hand from someone who has been hurt by the role at times. (And probably do a whole lot of projecting onto you, for which I apologize. There's no reason to think you would react the same way I did.) To say please try not to take it personally if it doesn't work and try not to invest too much of yourself into whether or not other people get along. Because it can hurt!
And again, I apologize if I'm being presumptuous.
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2004, at 11:21:52
In reply to Re: dr. bob » Dinah, posted by alesta on September 4, 2004, at 11:10:26
Here is a prime example of what I was explaining in my post to Mel. :)
I wasn't siding with Dr. Bob against you. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was agreeing that trying to converse with Dr. Bob can be frustrating at times, and relating the techniques that have helped me do it less frustratingly.
In other words, I was attempting to respond with empathy to you. I'm sorry if that didn't come through in my post.
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