![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 46. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phil on February 10, 2004, at 23:49:31
Dr. Bob and others,
DrB, Didn't you post demographic info here a few years ago?
Do you still have those numbers?
Do you know the demographics of the boards now?I ask because I see (I could be wrong) very few male participants here. Maybe more on PB than the other boards but it seems some boards have virtually no male posters.
Do you have any idea of the numbers of male posters that are no longer active here verses female posters.If there is a large turnover rate of male vs female posters, do you or anyone else know why?
Are other online mental health communities experiencing the same phenomenon or does anyone have time to compare these things?
If there is a big disparity or the gap is widening here, does anyone have any input?
I know why I'm not here very often but I don't pretend to represent any other participant or group.
This doesn't trouble me because I don't consider myself much of a part of this community at this point. I'm just a curious fossil.
I wonder if the numbers here reflect the real life numbers of people seeking help or community.
Lastly, if the board doesn't reflect 'real life' numbers, do you wish to venture a proposal as to why?
Thanks
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2004, at 1:28:50
In reply to What percentage of male vs. female posters?, posted by Phil on February 10, 2004, at 23:49:31
> Didn't you post demographic info here a few years ago?
It's still there:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/stats
> Do you know the demographics of the boards now?
Sorry, I haven't checked lately...
You pose some interesting questions. I don't have any answers. Do you have any theories?
Bob
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 10:35:20
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters?, posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2004, at 1:28:50
My guess is that women don't hide away like us bears and are more likely to share with each other.
Women are just more sociable and will generally ask or talk to each other when they need support.Guys, me anyway, will go to the boards, see all women posters and may be hesitant to join in. I imagine men who are new here are even more hesitant.
As the trend continues (if it is a trend) guys will eventually feel they don't belong and will suffer in in isolation., at least as far as this site goes.
While I enjoy supportive women, I miss seeing more men here. bob, was the only one I actually emailed once and asked if he was 'in the bunker' when he would not post. He did the same for me once. We didn't chat. Those three words were enough. I also spoke to Greg once on the phone which was cool.
The worse I feel for instance, the more I isolate and total self-destruction, driven by anger, sets in.
I'm generalizing because this isn't always true about men and women but I think it's close. It's certainly not 'news', is it?
On the down side, I wonder if safety issues here have come to mean that men are generally seen as perpetrators and are, in a subtle way, escorted to the exit or just leave out of frustration as to what constitutes safety. I've had people flame me several times but how that relates to my safety, I don't know. Are they going to find me and hurt me or are their words making me feel unsafe because I'm fragile and will fall into despair because they don't like me or they are verbally abusive? To me, it's a matter of boundary setting but I'm not condoning abuse either. Mental illness is not the same for any two people and if someone feels unsafe, they do deserve protection.
In general, I think men feel unsafe here because of administration and women feel unsafe because of men. I know this is a very wide net I'm casting and it's certainly not based on any research I've done and I may be 100% wrong.
So, I'm back to where I started. If men are indeed less in numbers here, is it human nature? Do men feel 'less than' when here? Are we less likely to stay if we feel we've been 'falsely accused', so to speak? Or is the future of forums like this eventually going to be known as, say Cosmopolitan magazine(bad example) of mental illness, where men glance at the pictures but don't understand the rhetoric?
Whatever the case may be, if men do leave in much higher percentages, the diversity and the goal of giving all people an outlet to post here will be gone and men will continue in their own community. Most likely a drink, a TV, and a good male friend that they communicate with at least once a year...by email. " Or, has 5 years slipped by? I'm so busy, you know. " Are you okay? "Sure, great. I'll see you someday." All of the old gang is getting together in July, come on down. "Yeah. Hey, I have another call, I'll be in touch."ps...Hopefully there will be some thoughts on this for the good of the community.
I am not looking for support. Any offered will fall on deaf ears.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 11, 2004, at 12:47:23
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Dr. Bob, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 10:35:20
I understand your point Phil. But what could the women on the board do to make men feel more welcome? I don't see how men could feel more unsafe, or women could feel unsafe from men being here. I try to do everything I can to make everyone feel safe here. I hope the same is true for everyone else as well.
I do realize the majority of posters are women. But personally, I would like to interact more with male posters. However there does seem to be a shortage. Do you have any suggestions on how to build a stronger male population? If you do, I'm all for it.
I just honestly don't understand your view on men feeling unsafe or women feeling unsafe from men being here. Not that I'm saying it's wrong, I just don't see it. Maybe you have some posts in mind you could provide? It could just be certain conflicts between posters you are thinking of? I could just be jumping to conclusions, which is very like me to do...
But, I honestly would like to see more male posters as well. Maybe some men could post their view on this thread so we could work together on this, if it is in fact a problem... Maybe I should just stop here..
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2004, at 13:29:10
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Dr. Bob, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 10:35:20
Phil, do you think it's all the talk about validation that has men running screaming for the exit?
I like men. I'd like to have more of them on the board. I like it when you visit. I'd like to hogtie Jonathan and Ted and make them post, but that would hardly be civil. I truly enjoy Bobby's infrequent visits. I miss Lar on Social.
But what would you think of a men's board? I think a men's board would be a fabulous idea. (Assuming it was open to all men of course.) Of course, you realize we women would be trying to figure you out by reading the posts. And I'd hope that the men would also post on the general board, since we do actually like men. Really!
I have to agree with Karen that most women aren't frightened by men or having them around. Believe it or not, a lot of women quake in their shoes a whole lot more in a social situation at the thought of other women than of men.
But I don't see a men's board as any different from a Writing or Health or Substance Abuse board. It addresses a certain need in the population.
I still like the idea of a board for families of those with mental illnesses, although I can see the potential problems. I might on Social griping about my husband while he's on the Spouse board letting all of you know just what a bad housekeeper I am.
Posted by Bobby on February 11, 2004, at 14:39:17
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Phil, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2004, at 13:29:10
I read them every day--though i've not much to say as of late. Sometimes i feel as if i don't belong with the "girl talk." I'm sorry but i don't think a "guy" board will do for me because i'd probably rather talk to women--ironic isn't it? Hey, by the way, where are you Ted?
Posted by shar on February 11, 2004, at 15:42:49
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Phil, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2004, at 13:29:10
D-
Isn't this exactly what disgusts you? A board for only 'certain' people (men), where everyone can read the posts but not be able to post or join in? Elitist, exclusionary, etc.?Or, is this somehow different? My jaw dropped when I saw your enthusiastic suggestion for a men-only board. In my mind, it's no different than the other 'walled community' boards that are being discussed above that have received your strong opposition.
Shar
>
> But what would you think of a men's board? I think a men's board would be a fabulous idea. (Assuming it was open to all men of course.)
Posted by kid47 on February 11, 2004, at 15:46:11
In reply to What percentage of male vs. female posters?, posted by Phil on February 10, 2004, at 23:49:31
As a male, I sometimes feel it would be considered intrusive if I were to post to what seems to be a "females" thread. Many times the threads are so exclusively female in nature (makeup tips, "plumbing" problems, clothes, etc.) I either don't feel qualified or can't empathize enough to comment or be truly supportive. I think women are generally far better communicators than men...to the point were very often I understand what is said intellectualy but I just don't "get it" on an emotional level. It's mainly my problem, but on very rare occasions, I felt like my participation in a thread was shunned, possibly because I am male. (or maybe they just didn't like me regardless of gender) I am not particularly unhappy about the situation (no more than usual)or asking for answeres. I am just describing my reality.
Posted by shar on February 11, 2004, at 15:49:25
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Dr. Bob, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 10:35:20
> On the down side, I wonder if safety issues here have come to mean that men are generally seen as perpetrators and are, in a subtle way, escorted to the exit or just leave out of frustration as to what constitutes safety.
OK, I won't offer you any support, as per your request...
I'm only one point of view, but I've always found the vast majority of men here to be very 'modern' in their thoughts and treatment of women. Hardly ever do I see males patronizing or demeaning females in general. Maybe because we're in the same boat (the SS Mental Health).
You may be right in your analysis, because I'm only one of many women, but I value the men here as much as the women, and don't see them as perpetrators of 'unsafeness.'
Shar
Posted by judy1 on February 11, 2004, at 16:19:35
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Dr. Bob, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 10:35:20
I don't know the actual statistics when it comes to male posters vs. female posters, but I do know that it feels like there are significantly fewer men posting then say several years ago. When it was just the medical board, it felt like mostly men, but when the other boards started- particularly psych- the pendulum swung the other way. I think a lot has to do with the topics chosen (women and their therps, etc.) and as you wrote that men aren't as willing to emote as much as women. I do know that you and several other male posters were key supporters of mine in the old days, not only with med advice but with how to deal with symptoms, etc. That was so invaluable to me because it helped me understand how my spouse must have felt, especially since he was unwilling to vocalize it. I know I'm rambling, I just wanted to convey the importance of male posters and how they are missed.- judy
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2004, at 16:34:23
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Dinah, posted by shar on February 11, 2004, at 15:42:49
Well, I must confess that I don't consider the possession of male genitalia an elitist issue. :)
I've never been a big believer in the Mars and Venus idea. I don't really like any stereotypes. If you applied gender stereotypes to my marriage, I'd be the man and my husband would be the woman. I never remember anniversaries or Valentines day, and could care less about cards or presents. I'm more likely to snort than swoon at romance.
But I thought Phil brought up some legitimate points. Many men do communicate differently than many women. I may not understand gender differences very much, but I have heard enough about them to at least concede that there might be validity to the concept. To me it's no different from the suggestions for any specialty board. Technically, I suppose there doesn't need to be any restriction on registration. The purpose of the board would be men's issues (whatever on earth those are - my therapist won't tell me). That would be no different than the health or writing board.
To be scrupulously fair there maybe should be a woman's issues board too. It might be nice to have a girl's only environment to discuss female genitalia and its quirks. And whatever women's issues might be. I've never been clear on that. Of course, like Jane said, the problem is that there is a seductive feeling that it's "just us girls" when in reality it's the entire world of people with internet access.
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 17:38:21
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Phil, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2004, at 13:29:10
Actually, I just threw out some random thoughts and concerns.
I like women very much and have probably posted to more women than men.
I know more than a few people here, men and women, feel they have been hurt badly by DR Bob's actions.
My first inclination when I heard this was, really? So, I listened to one special friend from here and began to see the light. Whether I feel that policies here have harmed people isn't the point. If someone 'feels they have been mistreated' by loooong blocks or being banned while others, that said worse but Dr Bob missed, and therefore are off the hook get off scott free. It's one thing to say he's too busy but when a depressed person feels hurt, they are hurt. And being too busy can be an addiction to kill pain just like drinking alcohol. They could be workaholics who are unable to delegate or trust anyone else's judgement. Therefore, we have fairness issues come up and people stand behind DrB because of what a nice generous thing he's done. Well, he has done a good thing to a point and I, for one appreciate it. I voluntarily sent money here to show my appreciation and I am as poor as many people here are.
Unless Dr Bob is willing to share the numbers on male/female ratios, I'm basically guessing when I say anything. That's irresponsible. My gut, however, is telling me that men have dwindled in population here because of DrB..and many women too. I don't think DrB wants to intentionally hurt anyone but how many times have people here talked till they are blue in the face over an obviously unfair block just to hear that his job isn't easy. No real answer but just trust me to know what's right for the board.
The first time I was blocked, I don't think anyone agreed with DB but that did not matter.Sorry for this long winded example, skip if you want.
[Say a boss at your company says, trust me to take care of you and go to bat for you. Mine says it constantly but a few weeks afterwards, I'm in a panic that I may lose my job soon. I'm home today because I had a major breakdown at work yesterday. I won't go into details but my willingness to see only his good side was naive. If I get a bad appraisal, which is due, this guy will wish it never happened. HR will hear things that make their head spin. I'm not being vindictive but my boss thinks he's god's gift to the organization but he has made some serious misjudgements.
One, I supervise a few people there. I've been there 3 years and he has discredited me in front of the whole organization. Where I come from, you back your managers in public and sort it out later. Hostile work environment is the least of his problems.]
The problem with all of this is my boss is not directly accountable to anyone. No oversight. If he says he's perfect, he has no one there to point out the mistakes except his employees. And if you are trying to do what you feel is right by saying he is wrong, you're a troublemaker. This man sees one dimension only. He asks for input and blows it off.
Dr. Bob has very little oversight that I know of. I don't care who you are, you should have independent people examining some of the complaints here. Not us all fighting for or against DrB. We came here to help one another.
I heard an AA speaker once say that if you meet someone that won't cop to having some issues, then you may want to reconsider what they say.
The reason for this topic is a lot of some of the best people I've known have been, in some peoples minds, wronged. This could be out of context but I "think" Cam was told something to the effect of, why don't you just stick to answering questions on PB?
Zenhussy was banned for 6 months and I got banned for two weeks because I knew she wanted help. Did she and I post uncivilly, yes. My depression is 95% anger and I must be careful. But if I feel a good friend has been hurt by being banned, and I know it hurt me the times I've been banned, then I'm not being true to myself to forgive and forget.
This much I know, when I am overly angry, it's because I've been hurt. Tears are next.
With more moderating help here, if a well known supporter of the board is suddenly furious, I feel maybe they could be talked to privately by email with the intent being to get them back on the board and make sure they are safe. Look out for your people and the shy and reserved will feel safe.
If this board was started by DB for the deeply intrinsic value of truly helping people, I feel feedback would not be ignored. I feel it would be nice to hear my name as I'm being kicked out of here. It's nice to hear, Phil, you screwed up and I must block you but please come back. Many people here like your posts. Instead, it's a clinical, impersonal kick in the pants.
The latest example: I ask Bob if he has demographics to see if what I think is happening truly is. I asked in a sincere professional manner.
Now his response may look benign to some. Good question, I don't know. What do you think?
Fallsfall saw the evasiveness about five minutes later. I was just going to accept his answer.
I have no agenda to overthrow Babble or hurt DrBob's feelings(great now I cry again) and don't think he knows how destructive the half answers and many other examples of coldness can hurt people. This isn't just a little chat board. If things in the medical field keep going the way they are, this may be our only resource or one of the few for real support.
One more thing and I'll wrap this longwinded post up. I was deeply disappointed, DrBob, when you were going to use sar's story in a report or speech , I'm not sure of the context but I think you were wondering aloud if you should contact her parents, or someone brought that up to you. You said something to the effect of. well, she signed off here so I don't think I will. You may, for reasons I don't know, have had a sound reason not to but I don't know what that would be. I think her parents and sister would have had a great chance to grieve if you humbly called and introduced yourself and said, I am truly sorry for the loss of your daughter. Maybe I'm a naive dreamer but coming from a small town, I just think you had a chance to make the parents feel cared about, and by a top university, big city psychiatrist calling them and humbly asking their permission. Is there a higher calling in life?
I'm hurting today extremely bad but not because of the board but personal issues. I hope that I'm not coming across to you as too emotional or heaping my issues on you. Whether you believe this or not, I feel tremendous gratitude and love for you, no matter your shortcomings. Whether I'm wrong or right isn't important to me but it is important to me to say that I do care. If I didn't love this place, I wouldn't have stayed.
I threw out this post hoping someone else or everyone else would look at the issue and resolve it.
I didn't intend to say anymore but questions were directed at me and I felt I should just talk.
You are someone I don't know who has given me, free of charge, the opportunity to talk to fellow sufferers. It has made me feel so much less alone.
I'm an adult child of alcoholics and I hope that whoever bothers to read this thread will go to ACOA's site to see the real me, what made me who I am and who I'll never be.
We are all suffering little children underneath the anger and self-hatred and even happiness.
All I ask is to be treated with respect. Same for all posters here and I promise I'll try harder to be fair with others, too.
Thank you for hearing out an emotional basket case.
I'm capable of extreme anger so I have to wake up in the morning and ask my God to speak through me.
I mean no harm.Phil
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 17:59:08
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Phil, posted by shar on February 11, 2004, at 15:49:25
I know the men here were fair, that's why I'm asking why have some of the best and brightest left unhappy...women, too.
Hopefully I'm a little clearer in my last post. If I didn't have the help of women here, it would be terrible. I don't want a male only board. I want some great people I've known here to come back and believe me, I do need support right now.
When I used to have a life and found myself at a party, I was chatting with the women. I feel way more comfortable around women and frankly a crowd of guys, I'll usually try to avoid. But we lost some really great people here; guys that were caring, intelligent, and way cool but don't think I'm condemning women or saying any woman's input isn't greatly appreciated. I wanted Dr Bob to think about it and hoped someone would see where I was trying to go.
Thanks shar...and fallsfall for seeing what I was attempting to do.
There is no darkness, just lack of light.
I hoped people would ask what is the ratio? IF guys don't stay who obviously had us all in better spirits then why?
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 18:22:22
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » shar, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 17:59:08
I want to be clear here. I meant, are men seen as the bad guy by the top guy. I think anyone who knows me knows I wouldn't call any of the men here perpetrators or say that women aren't supportive.
I want good people to stay but my concern is that men have a short half-life here. I miss the boy girl communication and banter here. I miss bob, st james, harry b, cam(so much!)and a ton more that I can't even begin to list.
I'm not saying I never missed noa when she was gone, or Racer and on and on.
I'm concerned that men may be leaving because of the moderator's misperception or do men just leave.
I think it's an incredible loss to see anyone leave.
Do men have less patience or do people have less patience with men? That's all I ask. Show me the numbers. Show everyone the numbers so we can hopefully self-correct and keep these guys and gals all here. At least not leaving because of perceived unfairness.
I would like feedback so if men don't feel they are treated fairly on a larger scale than women, then why?
Later
Posted by Slinky on February 11, 2004, at 18:39:55
In reply to I truly enjoy your posts too » Dinah, posted by Bobby on February 11, 2004, at 14:39:17
Sometimes i feel as if i don't belong with the "girl talk."
I also feel like that..
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 19:19:40
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters?, posted by kid47 on February 11, 2004, at 15:46:11
We all deserve to feel how we feel, it isn't right or wrong. And you're right, women are better communicators. Sometimes I know a woman is making perfectly good sense but I know I have a look of bewilderment like Gilligan trying to grasp Skippers' meaning.
Then I get defensive if I'm lucky enough to hear a woman say she loves me and walk off thinking...Hmmm...wonder what that meant?
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 19:42:14
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Phil, posted by Karen_kay on February 11, 2004, at 12:47:23
> I understand your point Phil. But what could the women on the board do to make men feel more welcome?
>>>Women have always made us feel welcomed
I don't see how men could feel more unsafe, or women could feel unsafe from men being here.>>>I know I shouldn't have tried to write today. Hopefully my other post makes more sense.
I try to do everything I can to make everyone feel safe here. I hope the same is true for everyone else as well.
>
>>>>If men are bailing in bigger numbers, it's not because of women.> I do realize the majority of posters are women. But personally, I would like to interact more with male posters. However there does seem to be a shortage.
>>>>That is my only point and I was hoping to see if it was my imagination or if others wondered it too.Do you have any suggestions on how to build a stronger male population? If you do, I'm all for it.
>
>>>>I think there was a stronger male population and I wanted feedback on why people thought the male population was dwindling.> I just honestly don't understand your view on men feeling unsafe or women feeling unsafe from men being here.
>>>I think next time I post, I'll just aska one line question. I've managed to confuse too many people. I knew using the word vs. might start the post off on the wrong foot. I don't think men here make all women feel unsafe or vice-versa. I've never felt unsafe here but I have felt a bit strained to fit the current standard of civility. I'm wondering if that could be why men 'could' be leaving in larger percentages.
Not that I'm saying it's wrong, I just don't see it.
Me neither.
Maybe you have some posts in mind you could provide? It could just be certain conflicts between posters you are thinking of? I could just be jumping to conclusions, which is very like me to do...
I evidently wasn't clear, my fault.
>
> But, I honestly would like to see more male posters as well. Maybe some men could post their view on this thread so we could work together on this, if it is in fact a problem...Exactly, but where are they?
Maybe I should just stop here..
Posted by Karen_kay on February 11, 2004, at 19:57:53
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters?, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 19:42:14
Is there any way to prove what you're saying though, short of just asking the previous male posters who are now gone, or the male posters who are currently posting how safe they feel? And do you expect to receive complete honesty from current posters? I know I personally wouldn't confess to being treated unfairly if I wanted to stay... Just a thought...And just a quick "hi!!"
to kid! I've missed your laziness and confusion, you sack of potatoes, you!
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 19:58:02
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Phil, posted by shar on February 11, 2004, at 15:49:25
> > On the down side, I wonder if safety issues here have come to mean that men are generally seen as perpetrators and are, in a subtle way, escorted to the exit or just leave out of frustration as to what constitutes safety.
>
> OK, I won't offer you any support, as per your request...>>>Why did I get out of bed today?
>
> I'm only one point of view, but I've always found the vast majority of men here to be very 'modern' in their thoughts and treatment of women. Hardly ever do I see males patronizing or demeaning females in general. Maybe because we're in the same boat (the SS Mental Health).>>Neither do I shar
>
> You may be right in your analysis, because I'm only one of many women, but I value the men here as much as the women, and don't see them as perpetrators of 'unsafeness.'>>I think this must be the most important yet misunderstood post ever. shar, you know me personally, do you really think I meant that as a slight? You and I and bob used to have a blast. Do you think I would call him a perpetrator? Have you ever seen me as a mean person...ever???
My wording got screwed up but I really thought the post was clear. I tried raising a simple question, why have guys left here? I've never even considered or thought or dreamed that women chased them away. I want them back for all of our benefit.
If I could post this over, I would say, "Does anyone have a theory why men are leaving at a higher rate, IF indeed they are?"
I'm sorry for offending you.
>
> Shar
Posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 20:33:34
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Phil, posted by Karen_kay on February 11, 2004, at 19:57:53
> Is there any way to prove what you're saying though, short of just asking the previous male posters who are now gone, or the male posters who are currently posting how safe they feel?
You know, I give up. I'm not here to prove anything. Let me be blunt. I think the reason these great guys have left is due to the administration of this board. I can't prove anything if Dr. Bob blows me off. If indeed men are getting out and I have the numbers, I know people who have this whole board on word documents in case Dr. Bob erased the posts.
And do you expect to receive complete honesty from current posters?No, I don't expect anything.
I know I personally wouldn't confess to being treated unfairly if I wanted to stay... Just a thought...And just a quick "hi!!"
>>Did you hear what you just said? To stay on this board you would pretend to be okay when you actually believed otherwise. I'm trying to cut through a boatload of denial by people here that watch great people leave and say, Well, Dr Bob's the boss. Better keep my mouth shut or he'll get me next. People have been hurt here and to turn away and ignore it is the problem. I'm trying, or was trying, to wake someone up to the fact that there are people out there that are angry and hurt by the actions of Dr Bob..whether he meant it or not. They won't come back here but it doesn't mean they are sitting around sulking. Many are trying to protect YOU and you basically are saying that you can handle more hurt rather than stand up and say you been harmed by anothers actions when or if it happens.
That is the reason I tried to shed some light here but if you don't care, I certainly wish you well.
Posted by jay on February 11, 2004, at 21:19:09
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Dr. Bob, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 10:35:20
Phil...yes..I hear you...as the numbers on the Stats board are quite staggering. In the last period...63 percent female. (And out of that..how many men post?) I also hear you about Dr. Bob's comments. I feel you are right...that a lot of guys don't speak up for fear of being "canned".(Or even initiate conversation.) I understand, somewhat, Dr. Bob's reasons for keeping general "civility", but I think in order for this to cease being the "stop..shop...and go" board (which is why I think there is high turnover), Dr. Bob has to loosen things up a bit. The Stats board doesn't lie...just look at the shear numbers of people who come and go. For Even to anyone who has hung around in a year, this feels more like a busy airport than a even a "loose knit" community.
I also believe men experience just as much mental illness as women, but there simply is that 'macho' stigma, and this would be a good place to break it. I think the guys who post here are brave by trying to turn that stigma away. How to foster that, though, I really don't 100 percent know. I've always felt Dr. Bob should develop a Mission Statement for this place, to give it some identity and a more solid purpose. It doesn't mean that he has to stick to it permanently, but it may help give us some identity, and also help draw more people. For some reason, it feels like Dr. Bob just wants to keep this as some lone, wild-west "gas stop" on the internet highway, but whatever he feels, he should put it up in writing, even if it is in a state of flux. This site is part of a chain of places people stop to get help, even if it isn't always therapeutic. I think it is time for that to be recognized.I know already other mental health websites have certain links via "web awards" (ie. http://www.mentalhelp.net/) and the Health On The Net (HonCode) Foundation also issues a standard "stamp" of certain codes of conduct and such being met.
Anyhow...IMHO..et. al, I would like to know what others think.
Jay
Posted by tabitha on February 11, 2004, at 21:39:54
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Karen_kay, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 20:33:34
I'm usually suspicious of those Mars Venus ideas, but one popped into my mind here. I read in a Deborah Tannen book that men tend to react more negatively than women to being told what to do, since they place a high value on independence and autonomy. Perhaps as Dr Bob has started stepping in more and getting stricter about civility, more men than women have gotten uncomfortable participating here.
Posted by noa on February 11, 2004, at 22:26:45
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters? » Karen_kay, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 20:33:34
the ratios seem to hover around 2:1 female to male. Do we know if this is any different than other boards of this kind, dealing with psychological issues? Or, for that matter, any different than patterns for joining support groups or seaking therapy? It also seems to me that the med board has more male posters than other boards here, but that is just an impression.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2004, at 1:23:27
In reply to Re: What percentage of male vs. female posters?, posted by Phil on February 11, 2004, at 17:38:21
Phil, I know you aren't here asking for support, but I really do just want to quickly say that I can see you're in a lot of pain, and I'm really sorry for it. I wish that life were fairer, or more gentle, to you. I wish there was something I could do. Ok, I'll stop now, and you can just skip this part of the post and go down to a few random remarks from my perhaps overstimulated brain if you prefer.
I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, but I hope you don't mind if I still think what you *weren't* trying to say might still deserve some thought. To my knowledge, some of the men I mentioned never ran up against Dr. Bob, and yet they did leave. And it might be worth investigating whether there's something about the sheer mass of women that is a bit intimidating.
I don't know that Dr. Bob comes down harder on men, he certainly has come down hard on some women as well. Perhaps what Tabitha said has some merit.
Or perhaps Dr. Bob speaks and understands the language of men better than women, and so sometimes things slip by because he doesn't really understand what is being said. Of course, it's also possible that I sometimes read things into women's posts that weren't intended. I know that's happened with my posts to others, and it's more than possible that the converse is true. Perhaps there is something about women's way of talking that can both hide incivility that is present, and suggest incivility that really isn't? Gender stereotypes again. But I know my manner of speech is circuitous at times, and as I'm myself I can't really pin down rather it's a regional thing, or a female thing, or a personal thing. But on the other hand, so can Dr. Bob's way of speaking so perhaps it's just a human communication problem. Sorry. Rambled a bit in my musings.
One thing I *do* believe very strongly is that it is the people who care most passionately about Bob and about Babble who are, ironically, most likely to leave because of Bob. Only things that you care about can bring great joy and great pain, and great anger too. Those people who quit posting, voluntarily or not, a good long time ago, and yet keep abreast of what's going on here and feel passionately about it pretty much *have* to care a lot. Otherwise they would have simply moved on long ago.
I also agree about the standard issue, boundary drawing, statements (like the goodbyes). They really sting when there is caring on our side. I told my therapist that the trouble with boundary drawing is that while you're doing it you aren't watching the other person and seeing the pain they're in. I can certainly understand what you said about it being nice if you heard your own name.
Are there really people saving the entire board to Word? The Admin board or all the boards? All the posts or just the controversial ones? I would be less than honest if I didn't say that I find that I'm feeling a bit funny about that, and the idea of other people looking out for (communal) me without my knowledge. It makes no sense for me to feel that way, I know, as this is an archived public board... I'm going to have to get used to that idea...
I do hope that things go better for you at work than you imagine they will. From what you've said over the years, I know that work has been a major stressor for you for a long time. :(
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 12, 2004, at 4:23:26
In reply to As a male..I hear ya..other comments... » Phil, posted by jay on February 11, 2004, at 21:19:09
> Whether you believe this or not, I feel tremendous gratitude and love for you, no matter your shortcomings. Whether I'm wrong or right isn't important to me but it is important to me to say that I do care. If I didn't love this place, I wouldn't have stayed.
Thanks, Phil :-) I appreciate that. You've contributed a lot over a long time, and I'm glad you're back. And plenty of others are, too.
> I know more than a few people here, men and women, feel they have been hurt badly by DR Bob's actions.
I realize people have been hurt by actions I've taken, and I'm sorry about that, but that wasn't my intent. I'd like to try to work something out, and I appreciate it when you and others are willing to give it another try, thanks.
> Zenhussy was banned for 6 months and I got banned for two weeks because I knew she wanted help. Did she and I post uncivilly, yes. My depression is 95% anger and I must be careful. But if I feel a good friend has been hurt by being banned, and I know it hurt me the times I've been banned, then I'm not being true to myself to forgive and forget.
I think it's great for people to support each other. That is, after all, the idea here. Even if it puts us in opposition at times.
> I was deeply disappointed, DrBob, when you were going to use sar's story in a report or speech , I'm not sure of the context but I think you were wondering aloud if you should contact her parents, or someone brought that up to you. You said something to the effect of. well, she signed off here so I don't think I will... I think her parents and sister would have had a great chance to grieve if you humbly called and introduced yourself and said, I am truly sorry for the loss of your daughter.
I am in fact truly sorry, but I have no idea what their needs are or how they would respond to being called.
> > I know I personally wouldn't confess to being treated unfairly if I wanted to stay... Just a thought...
>
> Did you hear what you just said? To stay on this board you would pretend to be okay when you actually believed otherwise. I'm trying to cut through a boatload of denial by people here that watch great people leave and say, Well, Dr Bob's the boss. Better keep my mouth shut or he'll get me next. People have been hurt here and to turn away and ignore it is the problem.
>
> PhilMaybe on Mars it's more important to speak out, even if that means conflict? Whereas on Venus it may be more important to get along, even if that means keeping something to oneself?
Confrontation isn't the only way to show support or to address problems. And keeping something to oneself is different than believing otherwise.
Civility has to do with getting along, so it may be more Venus than Mars...
----
> I feel you are right...that a lot of guys don't speak up for fear of being "canned".
Well, I'm all for thinking twice before posting...
> The Stats board doesn't lie...just look at the shear numbers of people who come and go. For Even to anyone who has hung around in a year, this feels more like a busy airport than a even a "loose knit" community.
>
> JayI agree, wouldn't it be nice if there were some boards that felt more like small towns than busy airports? :-)
Bob
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