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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 2, 2003, at 8:20:44
In reply to Thanks, posted by Dragonslayer on April 2, 2003, at 8:13:21
I know Dr Bob can access our IP numbers.. from that number you can find out who the persons ISP (internet service provider) is. You ISP can then find out who the IP address was assigned to at that particular time. Your ISP will have contact details for you. Now, I am pretty sure they couldn't give out this info without serious police involvement.
I don't what the situation would be with a threatened / suspected suicide. But, for instance, if Dr Bob was the contact the police, and the police thought it was serious enough to act upon, then I expect the police would be able to contact the poster.
Just my understanding of the situation.
Nikki
Posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 12:22:27
In reply to Technically speaking, posted by NikkiT2 on April 2, 2003, at 8:20:44
This gets tricky. Remember, we had an incident a few years ago. If I remember correctly, someone threatened directly on the board. It was the middle of the night EST. One poster had his phone number, and called the police in his jurisdiction. He ended up refusing services, and I think was rather miffed at the attempt to help him. He came back and said he was ok. Then he repeated the threats a number of times, but would get angry at people who tried to help. OK, this is my sketchy memory. I am sure someone remembers better, or I could (if I had the time) look up in the archives what happened. But I know it was not so straightforward.
I don't mean to say that I am against helping. But I also know it is complicated. It is complicated in person, in real time anyway, and all the moreso via this mode of communication.
And if the quasi-suicidal statements are sent via email to an individual and not to the board, it seems to me the issues are even more complicated.
Posted by Dragonslayer on April 2, 2003, at 12:39:18
In reply to Re: Technically speaking, posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 12:22:27
noa, I agree with you !!! I figured this had come up before given the board's nature. You're very right about what to do if the message is sent directly to your EMail address. Very difficult decision to make. It really boils down to: We really don't *know* each other, maybe we think we do but I'm not sure that is what really happens. I think that's the way it should stay. The types of relationships that develop are unique, as they are with any *public* board.... and despite registering, it is public !!!
Here is another area with another situation where our technology has surpassed our ability to deal with the true ethics of the concept.
Posted by Dragonslayer on April 2, 2003, at 12:49:56
In reply to Re: Is it my breath or something ??? » Dragonslayer, posted by NikkiT2 on April 2, 2003, at 7:17:04
>>>You have to give it time as much as anything else.. DR Bob is a busy man, so give him time!!<<<<
I have a feeling, there won't be a post from our busy man that will answers this, it will surprise me if there is.
Posted by OddipusRex on April 2, 2003, at 13:39:12
In reply to To: NikkiT2, posted by Dragonslayer on April 2, 2003, at 12:49:56
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20021128/msgs/8576.html
This was discussed a while back too without any particular resolution.Personally, I think there should be intervention if someone says he is in danger but that's different from just talking about suicide in general. At one time a poster made multiple posts about suicidal feelings (no threats) and also mentioned having guns in his house. What about situations like that? And what about posters who aren't popular or able to generate much popular support? Couldn't the lack of support drive them over the edge? What about suicidal posters who are banned for incivility in the middle of suicidal episodes? What about posters who are led into further despair by reading suicidal thoughts of others? What about the loss of trust if someone was turned into the authorities for something he posted here? What about ambiguous posts? What about attention seekers?
I don't want intervention no matter what I post here or what someone else might post on my behalf. Maybe we should be asked to sign some kind of waiver or Do Not Respond in real life order. Or the price of non-intervention might have to be not allowing suicidal threats to be posted on here. I don't think most forums allow that. But how do you define threats? I haven't seen anything on here in a long long time that I would call a "threat".
If anyone posted something that I thought meant their life was in danger and I had anyway to notify someone I would and I would expect Bob or anyone else to do the same. But I would rather not be put in that position.
> >>>You have to give it time as much as anything else.. DR Bob is a busy man, so give him time!!<<<<
>
> I have a feeling, there won't be a post from our busy man that will answers this, it will surprise me if there is.
>
>
Posted by Dragonslayer on April 2, 2003, at 14:35:00
In reply to Suicidal posters » Dragonslayer, posted by OddipusRex on April 2, 2003, at 13:39:12
>>Personally, I think there should be intervention if someone says he is in danger but that's different from just talking about suicide in general.>>>
Difficult to make that distinction at times. If a clear cut "I'm gonna...." is posted, well, I really don't know what to do with that. Even though I asked the question (obviously wasn't the first), I am coming to the conclusion there is no good answer or resolution. Again, as I stated in an earlier post, it is an ethical/technology issue. We got the future, we got the pitfalls, too. I think sites such as these are good but they do tend to give one a somewhat false sense of intimacy and therefore a *responibility* feeling at times. Maybe I'm off the mark here, but I, like you, don't like being placed in that position and therefore choose to TRY not feel that obligation of intervention.
After thinking about it, with all the liability disclaimers, the Adm. couldn't be held to fault in any case and shouldn't be.
Too dicey an area and is causing me to rethink how I want to use this site or others like it - good as it is.
Posted by stjames on April 3, 2003, at 0:42:43
In reply to Technically speaking, posted by NikkiT2 on April 2, 2003, at 8:20:44
> I know Dr Bob can access our IP numbers.. from that number you can find out who the persons ISP (internet service provider) is. You ISP can then find out who the IP address was assigned to at that particular time. Your ISP will have contact details for you.
This covers my day job, I can tell you most
will not give you this info w/o a court order.
To do otherwise is asking to be sued by a user.
Even if they will give it up, do not expect it
quickly; at least a day or two.I am a little jaded here; I have had to deal with
too many real life suicides and too many fake ones
on the internet. My opinion is if the internet is
their only way to get crisis help it is unlikly
they will get the real kind of help that can really help them.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 7:45:19
In reply to Re: Suicidal posters » OddipusRex, posted by Dragonslayer on April 2, 2003, at 14:35:00
> The anonymity of the web is a double edged sword. It helps us feel comfortable disclosing our darkest most dangerous thoughts. But it also makes it difficult for anyone to help us when we do.
>
> Often with regular posters, there are other posters who have outside contact with the person in crisis, and they usually do what they can. But even then the amount of information might not really be enough to help. It makes for a lot of frustration when we see someone in very real pain and at risk.
>
> Dinah> I guess the answer is ... there's not much you can do but try to get a person to get a person to be *rational* and seek help.
>
> Too dicey an area and is causing me to rethink how I want to use this site or others like it - good as it is.
>
> Dragonslayer> Personally, I think there should be intervention if someone says he is in danger but that's different from just talking about suicide in general. At one time a poster made multiple posts about suicidal feelings (no threats) and also mentioned having guns in his house. What about situations like that? And what about posters who aren't popular or able to generate much popular support? Couldn't the lack of support drive them over the edge? What about suicidal posters who are banned for incivility in the middle of suicidal episodes? What about posters who are led into further despair by reading suicidal thoughts of others? What about the loss of trust if someone was turned into the authorities for something he posted here? What about ambiguous posts? What about attention seekers?
>
> If anyone posted something that I thought meant their life was in danger and I had anyway to notify someone I would and I would expect Bob or anyone else to do the same. But I would rather not be put in that position.
>
> OddipusRexThis has been a good discussion. These are complicated issues. I said before, in the thread that Oddipus referred to:
> It can be hard to know where to draw the line, but if I thought I could keep someone from killing themselves, I'd do what I could.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20021128/msgs/8580.htmlAnd that would include, as Nikki says:
> I know Dr Bob can access our IP numbers.. from that number you can find out who the persons ISP (internet service provider) is. You ISP can then find out who the IP address was assigned to at that particular time. Your ISP will have contact details for you.
>
> if Dr Bob was the contact the police, and the police thought it was serious enough to act upon, then I expect the police would be able to contact the poster.Bob
Posted by Dragonslayer on April 3, 2003, at 7:52:09
In reply to Re: Suicidal posters, posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 7:45:19
Having a large serving of humble pie right now. Thank you, Dr. Bob for your response. Pretty much a problem that solutions are difficult to come by.... the nature of the beast.
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 8:00:24
In reply to Re: Suicidal posters, posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 7:45:19
Have you ever done it?
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 8:08:52
In reply to Re: I hope you use that judiciously. » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 8:00:24
> Have you ever done it?
Twice. I do try, despite what some may think, to be judicious and to intervene as little as possible...
Bob
Posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2003, at 8:11:03
In reply to Re: I do try to use that judiciously., posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 8:08:52
Krissy sent some of us an e-mail saying, "i took the pills im sorry," and "No one can control me anymore." (Sorry if I misquoted slightly; I can't remember, as both posts were deleted by a faulty bulk-mail folder, where they were found later.)
I'm worried that it's too late now.
beardy
Posted by lil' jimi on April 3, 2003, at 11:42:32
In reply to Emergency? » Dr. Bob, posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2003, at 8:11:03
> Krissy sent some of us an e-mail saying, "i took the pills im sorry," and "No one can control me anymore." (Sorry if I misquoted slightly; I can't remember, as both posts were deleted by a faulty bulk-mail folder, where they were found later.)
>
> I'm worried that it's too late now.
>
> beardymy ms beardy,
i posted over at Administration last night and got Dr. Bob the lowdown... and he has responded... many of us are praying for her.
peace, .... as soon as you may find it,
~ jim
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 11:48:19
In reply to Re: I do try to use that judiciously., posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 8:08:52
what is judicously mean?
thanks and sorry
sienna
Posted by Dragonslayer on April 3, 2003, at 11:50:23
In reply to Re: Emergency?, posted by lil' jimi on April 3, 2003, at 11:42:32
I’m sorry about the desperate situation that’s happening with KrissyP. I hope she’s all right. I know everyone does. It was the reason I posted the question in above. There are no good solutions to this dilemma of -*What do we DO ???*…. I won’t repost the stuff I said above, other than to say, we really can’t do a lot. If a tragedy occurs, everyone will think they didn’t do enough. The thing is : we look at each other on screens and see each other through screens and, for most of us, that is all the contact we have. If we do have other information on a person in danger, I think most would use any means to try to help that person. We are just limited as to what can be done from this board.
I do hope things don’t have a bad outcome in this situation or anytime this comes up. I know that’s everyone’s hope. This does come up from time to time … sadly.
Posted by wendy b. on April 3, 2003, at 15:51:13
In reply to Re: Emergency?, posted by Dragonslayer on April 3, 2003, at 11:50:23
I think the best way to help is to ask a person who is agitated or upset for their contact information. This is assuming you have developed some kind of rapport and email-type of relationship with him or her. At least gathering their home town and their last name? Then if we suspect a crisis, we can put in a call to the police, possibly incurring the wrath of the suicidal person (as happened a few months ago with a poster), but nevertheless...? Does this make any sense?
I know many people value their right to make the ultimate decision about suicide; I personally often wonder why it's "illegal," but that's just me. In the end, if somebody is determined to do it, they will succeed...best wishes to everyone, and I hope Krissy is alright - what a bad day ------
W.
> I’m sorry about the desperate situation that’s happening with KrissyP. I hope she’s all right. I know everyone does. It was the reason I posted the question in above. There are no good solutions to this dilemma of -*What do we DO ???*…. I won’t repost the stuff I said above, other than to say, we really can’t do a lot. If a tragedy occurs, everyone will think they didn’t do enough. The thing is : we look at each other on screens and see each other through screens and, for most of us, that is all the contact we have. If we do have other information on a person in danger, I think most would use any means to try to help that person. We are just limited as to what can be done from this board.
> I do hope things don’t have a bad outcome in this situation or anytime this comes up. I know that’s everyone’s hope. This does come up from time to time … sadly.
>
Posted by SBOATRN on April 3, 2003, at 16:13:23
In reply to Re: Emergency? » Dragonslayer, posted by wendy b. on April 3, 2003, at 15:51:13
With worry and concern and no word. It has been quite a bad day indeed.
Posted by lil' jimi on April 3, 2003, at 16:19:15
In reply to Quite a day !!, posted by SBOATRN on April 3, 2003, at 16:13:23
i'll second that!
can make you Very frustrated!Oh, JYL, Can you offer anything over here?
~ ... jim
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 21:14:39
In reply to Re: Quite a (BAD) day !! ( jyl?) » SBOATRN, posted by lil' jimi on April 3, 2003, at 16:19:15
> Oh, JYL, Can you offer anything over here?
I'd like posts regarding Krissy P to be redirected back to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030401/msgs/215720.html
Whereas posts regarding administrative issues should of course stay here. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 23:14:04
In reply to Re: I do try to use that judiciously., posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 8:08:52
Now Dr. Bob, you know I think you neither injudicious nor overinvolved. :)
I was just, as usual, paranoid about privacy. But the few number of times you've used the option reassures me. Thank you.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 4, 2003, at 0:10:40
In reply to Re: I do try to use that judiciously. » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2003, at 23:14:04
> Now Dr. Bob, you know I think you neither injudicious nor overinvolved.
If only you spoke for everyone! :-)
> I was just, as usual, paranoid about privacy. But the few number of times you've used the option reassures me. Thank you.
If I used it a lot, you'd probably have heard about it...
Bob
Posted by OddipusRex on June 20, 2003, at 20:03:51
In reply to Re: Suicidal posters, posted by Dr. Bob on April 3, 2003, at 7:45:19
Dr Bob when you publicly post that you will intervene then aren't you creating the expectation that you will? And doesn't that just encourage this sort of thing? And someday if you don't intervene don't you think someone out there is going to sue the psycho pants off you?You have said that you think the posters handle these posts well but I don't think they do. It comes at quite a cost. Just because something blows over and the board moves on doesn't mean all is well. It takes an enormous toll on people who stumble into these situations.
I think the best solution is to remove those posts and insist that those people use all their energy to call 911. I think that treats suicide with the seriousness it deserves. Suicidal depression could be discussed without making threats.
I think leaving all those threads in the archives creates a kind of momentum and encourages this kind of behaviour. If you need to keep all posts for posterity couldn't you keep them privately?
Another alternative is a separate board for suicidal posts but that wouldn't solve a lot of problems.
OddipusRex Esq
> > The anonymity of the web is a double edged sword. It helps us feel comfortable disclosing our darkest most dangerous thoughts. But it also makes it difficult for anyone to help us when we do.
> >
> > Often with regular posters, there are other posters who have outside contact with the person in crisis, and they usually do what they can. But even then the amount of information might not really be enough to help. It makes for a lot of frustration when we see someone in very real pain and at risk.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> > I guess the answer is ... there's not much you can do but try to get a person to get a person to be *rational* and seek help.
> >
> > Too dicey an area and is causing me to rethink how I want to use this site or others like it - good as it is.
> >
> > Dragonslayer
>
> > Personally, I think there should be intervention if someone says he is in danger but that's different from just talking about suicide in general. At one time a poster made multiple posts about suicidal feelings (no threats) and also mentioned having guns in his house. What about situations like that? And what about posters who aren't popular or able to generate much popular support? Couldn't the lack of support drive them over the edge? What about suicidal posters who are banned for incivility in the middle of suicidal episodes? What about posters who are led into further despair by reading suicidal thoughts of others? What about the loss of trust if someone was turned into the authorities for something he posted here? What about ambiguous posts? What about attention seekers?
> >
> > If anyone posted something that I thought meant their life was in danger and I had anyway to notify someone I would and I would expect Bob or anyone else to do the same. But I would rather not be put in that position.
> >
> > OddipusRex
>
> This has been a good discussion. These are complicated issues. I said before, in the thread that Oddipus referred to:
>
> > It can be hard to know where to draw the line, but if I thought I could keep someone from killing themselves, I'd do what I could.
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20021128/msgs/8580.html
>
> And that would include, as Nikki says:
>
> > I know Dr Bob can access our IP numbers.. from that number you can find out who the persons ISP (internet service provider) is. You ISP can then find out who the IP address was assigned to at that particular time. Your ISP will have contact details for you.
> >
> > if Dr Bob was the contact the police, and the police thought it was serious enough to act upon, then I expect the police would be able to contact the poster.
>
> Bob
Posted by zenhussy on June 20, 2003, at 23:51:39
In reply to Here we go again Bob » Dr. Bob, posted by OddipusRex on June 20, 2003, at 20:03:51
Oddipus,
see post below: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030508/msgs/235703.html
Please try to get some support around removing yourself from being so involved in posts that seem to hurt you so much.
It is painful to read someone who appears to be unable to disengage when they are most vulnerable and this being a board about support I can only offer up that I hope you get the support you need to keep on keepin' on.
zenhussy
P.S. Oddipus, I think that you aren't stumbling into anything. You are fully aware of what you are reading and you continue to do so. Stumbling. Nice touch.
>
> Dr Bob when you publicly post that you will intervene then aren't you creating the expectation that you will? And doesn't that just encourage this sort of thing? And someday if you don't intervene don't you think someone out there is going to sue the psycho pants off you?
>
> You have said that you think the posters handle these posts well but I don't think they do. It comes at quite a cost. Just because something blows over and the board moves on doesn't mean all is well. It takes an enormous toll on people who stumble into these situations.
>
> I think the best solution is to remove those posts and insist that those people use all their energy to call 911. I think that treats suicide with the seriousness it deserves. Suicidal depression could be discussed without making threats.
>
> I think leaving all those threads in the archives creates a kind of momentum and encourages this kind of behaviour. If you need to keep all posts for posterity couldn't you keep them privately?
>
> Another alternative is a separate board for suicidal posts but that wouldn't solve a lot of problems.
>
> OddipusRex Esq
>
>
>
> > > The anonymity of the web is a double edged sword. It helps us feel comfortable disclosing our darkest most dangerous thoughts. But it also makes it difficult for anyone to help us when we do.
> > >
> > > Often with regular posters, there are other posters who have outside contact with the person in crisis, and they usually do what they can. But even then the amount of information might not really be enough to help. It makes for a lot of frustration when we see someone in very real pain and at risk.
> > >
> > > Dinah
> >
> > > I guess the answer is ... there's not much you can do but try to get a person to get a person to be *rational* and seek help.
> > >
> > > Too dicey an area and is causing me to rethink how I want to use this site or others like it - good as it is.
> > >
> > > Dragonslayer
> >
> > > Personally, I think there should be intervention if someone says he is in danger but that's different from just talking about suicide in general. At one time a poster made multiple posts about suicidal feelings (no threats) and also mentioned having guns in his house. What about situations like that? And what about posters who aren't popular or able to generate much popular support? Couldn't the lack of support drive them over the edge? What about suicidal posters who are banned for incivility in the middle of suicidal episodes? What about posters who are led into further despair by reading suicidal thoughts of others? What about the loss of trust if someone was turned into the authorities for something he posted here? What about ambiguous posts? What about attention seekers?
> > >
> > > If anyone posted something that I thought meant their life was in danger and I had anyway to notify someone I would and I would expect Bob or anyone else to do the same. But I would rather not be put in that position.
> > >
> > > OddipusRex
> >
> > This has been a good discussion. These are complicated issues. I said before, in the thread that Oddipus referred to:
> >
> > > It can be hard to know where to draw the line, but if I thought I could keep someone from killing themselves, I'd do what I could.
> > >
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20021128/msgs/8580.html
> >
> > And that would include, as Nikki says:
> >
> > > I know Dr Bob can access our IP numbers.. from that number you can find out who the persons ISP (internet service provider) is. You ISP can then find out who the IP address was assigned to at that particular time. Your ISP will have contact details for you.
> > >
> > > if Dr Bob was the contact the police, and the police thought it was serious enough to act upon, then I expect the police would be able to contact the poster.
> >
> > Bob
>
>
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2003, at 2:16:22
In reply to Re: Here you(?)go again » OddipusRex, posted by zenhussy on June 20, 2003, at 23:51:39
I've been in that situation myself. This board is hard to disengage from sometimes. I haven't known Oddipus to be deceitful. I'm sure stumbling best described his/her feelings at the time.
Posted by OddipusRex on June 21, 2003, at 6:03:25
In reply to Re: Here you(?)go again » OddipusRex, posted by zenhussy on June 20, 2003, at 23:51:39
This is the end of the thread.
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