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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 57. Go back in thread:
Posted by stjames on March 20, 2003, at 14:05:08
In reply to I cast a vote of no confidence for Dr. Bob, posted by stjames on March 20, 2003, at 11:00:19
Political or not, I still vote no confidence
Posted by NikkiT2 on March 20, 2003, at 14:55:13
In reply to Re: I cast a vote of no confidence for Dr. Bob, posted by stjames on March 20, 2003, at 14:05:08
Would you rather this site was closed down, than Dr Bob to continue as administrator???
Nikki
Posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 15:23:19
In reply to Re: I cast a vote of no confidence for Dr. Bob, posted by stjames on March 20, 2003, at 14:05:08
Posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 15:38:08
In reply to I declare myself absolute monarch (nm), posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 15:23:19
Posted by stjames on March 20, 2003, at 15:46:11
In reply to Out of interest » stjames, posted by NikkiT2 on March 20, 2003, at 14:55:13
> Would you rather this site was closed down, than Dr Bob to continue as administrator???
>
> NikkiI don't support closing this site, that is way off base. I support whatever it takes to have a moderator who makes reasonable decisions on blocks.
Posted by noa on March 20, 2003, at 17:24:43
In reply to Re: Jay was blocked for not following the rules, posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2003, at 19:06:19
I still am having a hard time understanding the block.
Jay did phrase things in terms of how he feels. All of his comments were about his feelings about Bush not listening, etc., and were not just declarative statements about Bush.
There have been many instances of political debate here at babble that have not received such close scrutiny and restriction. I think people should be able to post opinions and it appears to me, after reading the posts, that Jay did so with good faith effort to state things as his personal feelings, not as facts.
If you are concerned, given the current war climate, about how heated such discussions could become, possibly taking away from the supportive atmosphere of the board in general, perhaps there should be a separate political discussion board, at least temporarily while this is going on.
People do have strong feelings and are going to want to express themselves. It should be done as civilly as possible. I feel Jay was being civil, even if very strongly opinioned and rather stirred up.
I can also see that one might worry that the board might be overrun by rather vehement political threads, given how controversial this war is. I wouldn't want people to feel restricted from expressing their opinions, however. That is why I believe a separate board might help.
Posted by mair on March 20, 2003, at 17:33:10
In reply to Re: I cast a vote of no confidence for Dr. Bob » stjames, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2003, at 12:59:33
>" Why does everyone assume the worst of everybody?"
>
I totally agree with this sentiment and get very impatient with the tendency here to presuppose the motives (always seemingly bad) of another, be they Bob's or George Bush's or another poster's. However, maybe something went right over my head, but it seem to me that this is precisely what Bob did to Jay - assumed that he was using an I statement to disguise a you statement. I thought Jay was making a sincere effort to say things in a civil way, within the guidelines as he understood them - show's what I know!I feel rather bad about this since I started the thread. My anguish about the war is/was genuine. It affects us all on some level - and yes, I do buy into the global citizen argument - so I do mean all of us, Americans and non-Americans alike. But I only wanted to express my own distress- I didn't want to stir up a firestorm, certainly not one which would spill over to admin.
I do think Bob's got to allow us some legitimate leeway to talk about this war. I'm sure some of us know people over there. I can't claim that kind of connection, but my teenage son is supposed to get on a plane and fly to France in about 3 weeks and this war has made what once seemed to be a wonderful opportunity to be possibly a very bad idea. So this war is providing me with things I can worry about as a citizen and things I worry about as a mother.
Mair
Posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:24:54
In reply to Parliament is dissolved (nm), posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 15:38:08
Posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:26:15
In reply to I declare myself absolute monarch (nm), posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 15:23:19
Posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:30:05
In reply to Hear Hear! Brilliant! (nm) » OddipusRex, posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:26:15
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2003, at 18:30:32
In reply to You're amazingly adorable (nm) » OddipusRex, posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:30:05
Posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:31:52
In reply to You're amazingly adorable (nm) » OddipusRex, posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:30:05
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2003, at 18:34:30
In reply to O that Bob were more like you (nm) » OddipusRex, posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:31:52
Posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:44:04
In reply to Re: lol (nm) » OddipusRex, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2003, at 18:34:30
Posted by Tabitha on March 20, 2003, at 23:35:31
In reply to O that Bob were more like you (nm) » OddipusRex, posted by OddipusRex on March 20, 2003, at 18:31:52
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2003, at 10:59:43
In reply to Re: Jay was blocked for not following the rules, posted by noa on March 20, 2003, at 17:24:43
> If you are concerned, given the current war climate, about how heated such discussions could become, possibly taking away from the supportive atmosphere of the board in general, perhaps there should be a separate political discussion board, at least temporarily while this is going on.
That's exactly what I'm concerned about. Couldn't the heated discussions take place at another site entirely? Maybe people could post some links to ones they like?
Bob
Posted by Willow on March 21, 2003, at 11:43:51
In reply to Re: heated discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2003, at 10:59:43
I think quite a few of the regular posters would enjoy a political board. Elections, foreign policies, it could also cover insurance issues and any government stuff (like disability, drug progams, etc.) and just the plain philosophy of politics.
For myself, a real large part of my problem is boundaries and putting things in prospective. I believe my first depression as a child started during some conflict in egypt or it was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm more likely to listen to advice from my babble friends than a stranger without feeling hurt and withdrawing, etc.
WILLOW
Posted by Ron Hill on March 21, 2003, at 13:34:43
In reply to Re: heated discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2003, at 10:59:43
> > If you are concerned, given the current war climate, about how heated such discussions could become, possibly taking away from the supportive atmosphere of the board in general, perhaps there should be a separate political discussion board, at least temporarily while this is going on.
>
> That's exactly what I'm concerned about. Couldn't the heated discussions take place at another site entirely? Maybe people could post some links to ones they like?
>
> Bob
-----------------------------Dr. Bob,
Yeah, that's where I figured you were coming from on this one. I do not envy your position as moderator because it often requires a delicate balancing act. On the one hand, it may be good from a mental health standpoint for posters to have the freedom to post their fears, concerns, and feelings regarding the war. On the other hand, heated discussions could quickly escalate out of control, in which case, perhaps the prudent course of action would be to put out the brush fire before the entire forest is set ablaze.
Thank you for continuing to invest the emotional energy required to run this site. At the end of the day when all is said and done, you do an excellent job.
-- Ron
Posted by J.Brown on March 22, 2003, at 0:53:59
In reply to Re: heated discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2003, at 10:59:43
When does harming others get reduced to "political foreign affairs?"
Hsuing, you are employed by the academy of learning that engineered the first weapon of mass destruction.
You are a physician. Stand against mass destruction or sit down, shut up, close your page and admit to yourself that you have no moral authority to dicate civil dialogue.
Posted by noa on March 22, 2003, at 11:36:21
In reply to Re: heated discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 21, 2003, at 10:59:43
I understand that the idea of an onslaught of debates about the war escalating into vehemence, anger, and incivility must seem extremely dreadful. But I think so many of us see this place as "our" place, and the idea of going to another board just for that seems awkward. Isn't there some way to allow for it without letting it disrupt other discussions or becoming uncivil?
I also still have difficulty seeing where Jay crossed the line. I understand the idea that the intensity was escalating somewhat in the thread, but still would find it helpful to understand what rules were broken, as I don't see it in his posts. I know he wasn't being that respectful of George Bush, especially with the comment on penis size, but I believe that post came before your warning, and he apologized. After the warning, I didn't see anything like that, just very strong opinion.
Those particular kinds of comments aside, expresing disdain for a political leader and his or her policies doesn't seem to me to be uncivil, even when others here like that leader. I think political figures are accepted as targets of commentary, positive or negative. I agree, though that it shouldn't deteriorate into crudeness. And, perhaps, as you prefer, it is reasonable to expect that people use feeling statements, so that it not become a total bash-fest that makes some posters feel unwelcome. I agree. But it seemed to me that Jay did use feeling words, owning htat these were his feelings, not facts.
I can see where you might see Jay's post as having the potential to open up a bash fest, but in itself it didn't seem like one to me (once the genital comment was corrected and apologized for). If I am missing something, could you point me to the language that was over the line?
I know I am flipping back and forth from discussing Jay's blocking and the question of how to manage political debates, etc. Forgive the disorganization of this post.
Here is a thought: what if people started with a kind of disclaimer/warning before a political rant, acknowledging it as personal opinion and that it may be something that some may want to skip ("WARNING: Political Rant Ahead! Proceed with Caution! Take with grain of salt as it represents my own personal rantings and ravings.")
OTOH, I have the thought that the old saying about politics and religion might apply. They are tricky areas for civil conversation.
OTOH (I have a lot of hands, don't I), the typical discussions of this board--mental illness, medications, side effects (graphic detail and all), personal disclosures of dark parts of the self, etc.--aren't typical dinner conversation, either, so the adage about politics and religion doesn't seem to be apt to this forum.
So how to allow for posters to discuss political views, views about the war, etc. and keep it civil? The line between civil and uncivil is very difficult to define, of course, as such things often are. This is a stressful time in our history, very scary and troubling. People are going to have strong feelings and opinions in many directions. It seems a shame there isn't room here for discussion of these matters, but how to have genuine expression of views without escalating into havoc and hurt feelings?
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2003, at 23:41:21
In reply to Re: heated discussions, posted by noa on March 22, 2003, at 11:36:21
> > It feels like George Bush is not listening, doesn't care
> > I feel Bush doesn't have regard for the millions upon millions upon MILLIONS around the world and in the US who oppose his unilateral action against Iraq.> it seemed to me that Jay did use feeling words, owning htat these were his feelings, not facts.
Sorry, but those still seem to me to be "Bush statements" disguised as "I statements". For one thing, he didn't refer to any feelings of his...
> I think so many of us see this place as "our" place, and the idea of going to another board just for that seems awkward. Isn't there some way to allow for it without letting it disrupt other discussions or becoming uncivil?
I see what you're saying, and I'm open to suggestions...
> Here is a thought: what if people started with a kind of disclaimer/warning before a political rant
Yes, I suppose they could have warning labels, but I wouldn't want to allow other types of uncivil posts just because they had warning labels...
> OTOH, I have the thought that the old saying about politics and religion might apply. They are tricky areas for civil conversation.
Have you checked out Psycho-Babble Faith? :-)
> So how to allow for posters to discuss political views, views about the war, etc. and keep it civil? ... It seems a shame there isn't room here for discussion of these matters, but how to have genuine expression of views without escalating into havoc and hurt feelings?
Some views aren't civil, so there isn't room here for their genuine expression. That's the trade-off between civility and freedom of speech.
And my idea was just to try to keep it civil here the way I usually do. Which I know is subjective and probably idiosyncratic, but I'm doing my best to be fair and to do what I think will be good for this community as a whole. But like I said, I'm open to suggestions, too. Thanks for your input,
Bob
Posted by fayeroe on March 24, 2003, at 11:14:57
In reply to Re: heated discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2003, at 23:41:21
i am lurking and reading all of this..knowing that i need a place to talk about the war and vent some of my very personal feelings. i think that today i am very affected by what is happening because i am going to visit friends who's youngest son is on the front line. i don't know what to say to them or how to feel! i'm scared to death for their child....and for them.
so, i vote for a place where we can talk about it and like you told me, if you don't like the way someone posts, don't read it~pat
Posted by noa on March 26, 2003, at 18:21:54
In reply to Re: heated discussions, posted by Dr. Bob on March 23, 2003, at 23:41:21
I feel he was trying to keep it to his feelings, even if his attempt didn't meet your standards for that. Also, this criteria has been poorly defined and has not been enforced in this way before, so it would seem reasonable to me that Jay thought he was being civil in not repeating the vulgar comments, and in stating how he felt about Bush's actions and apparent attitudes.
In addition, the statements:
> > It feels like George Bush is not listening, doesn't care
> > I feel Bush doesn't have regard for the millions upon millions upon MILLIONS around the world and in the US who oppose his unilateral action against Iraq.are about how he feels about the actions and positions of a political figure, and to me, that is not uncivil. He is not saying things like, "anyone who believes/supports/agrees with Bush is an idiot" or "Bush is despicable human being" or anything like that. He states how he feels about actions and attitudes of an elected political official, which are public domain as far as I'm concerned, as he is our leader and his positions, attitudes and actions are our domain as a democratic society.
Political figures are going to be the subject of debate and opinion. This seemed just that, not anything uncivil.
Posted by Willow on March 27, 2003, at 7:19:32
In reply to Re: heated discussions » Dr. Bob, posted by noa on March 26, 2003, at 18:21:54
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2003, at 7:57:43
In reply to Re: heated discussions » Dr. Bob, posted by noa on March 26, 2003, at 18:21:54
> I feel he was trying to keep it to his feelings, even if his attempt didn't meet your standards for that.
Fair enough, I'm not saying he wasn't trying...
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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