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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2002, at 19:07:44
In reply to Re: A Faith board question - Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 11, 2002, at 10:25:02
D,
You had a discussion with Dr. Bob that is included in his rationals for determining acceptability on the faith board. It appears to me that he indicated that in his discussion with you , and other posts of his, that the following are determining factors in his rationals:
A.Is it best for the community?
B.Is it supportive of faith in God?
C)Is it educational?
D.Does it put down others?
E.Does it say that it is the [only] way for all others?
F)Does it disrespect the view that the poster is posting about? (this applys to other respondants to the post)
G.Is it trying to pressure others to join a particular group,ie.,proselytising?
H. other rationals that I have not listed
Now in regards to your [not having a good grasp on the guidlines], Could you clarify which one(s) of the above could be the one(s) that you do not have a [good grasp] on? If you could, then we could have a discussion focused on the guidline(s) and we will be better able to [grasp] the guidline(s).
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by Dinah on December 11, 2002, at 19:19:37
In reply to The view from my desk » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2002, at 19:07:44
Thanks Lou, but I think I'll just wait and watch. I learn better that way, and when things settle down and I get an idea of what is expected, I might feel more comfortable posting.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2002, at 19:37:42
In reply to A Faith board question, posted by NikkiT2 on December 11, 2002, at 8:22:12
NikkiT2,
You wrote that [what rayww posted is in the same catagory as some posts of Lou's that were {slated}...]
Now I like that you have brought this up here as an adinistrative discussion. Could you clarify if your post then:
A. Is indicating a preferrence is being given to rayww over Lou
B. Lou's posts neded not to be slated
C. The faith board should allow athiests and agnostic views
D.Some other answer
If you could give clarification to your post, then I would be better able to discuss this here.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 9:29:23
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2002, at 19:37:42
I will tackle each point you made!!
A. Is indicating a preferrence is being given to rayww over Lou
Yes, I did feel that Dr Bob was being unfair in pulling you up over your posts, but not this one from rayww.
B. Lou's posts neded not to be slated
No, I didn;t mean that... I also felt that some of your posts touched a nerve I didn't think it was right to touch...
C. The faith board should allow athiests and agnostic views
I don't know about this.. I don;'t class myself and an athiest or agnostic, I simply don't believe in god per se, yet I do have other beliefs... I am uncertain as to what I am faith wise!! I simply believe that NO ONE should say someone elses way is worse tahn others, which rayww said very clearly.
But, as dr Bob said, there has been yet another change of rules for the Faith Board... it seems its OK to tell some one they are less of a person for not following one set of rules now.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 9:36:15
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 9:29:23
NikkiT2,
You wrote,[...rayww said that someone elses way is worse than others...]
Could you clarify what rayww wrote that indicates that [to you]? If you could, then I would be better able to have further discussion with you about that.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 9:42:44
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 9:36:15
These are the points I find objectionable in rayww's post..
"Religion is there as a guide and a light especially to steer children to right choices while they are teachable. Science is too far behind religion to be able to do that. Athiesm is a whiteout....
....An Athiest does not see beyond the whiteout. A person of faith does. "
I find this bad as it seems to make out that my parents did a worse job of bringing me up, in a scientific household, than they would have done in a religious household. I have enough experience of life to know this is simply not true.
I hoped to be able to explain how a religious setting (a church and a minister) once lead me to a bad choice in my life, but I am not allowed to do this. (I can now understand your frustrations!!).I do not think any one way is better than anyother, it is all down to personal choice and experience. What works for one person does not always work for another.
And while i am trying to find my way it is most un-helpful to me to be told such things.Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 9:53:28
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 9:42:44
NikkiT2,
Yor answer says a great deal and I would like to look first at what you wrote as:[... I am not allowed to do this...]
Could you clrify that, for I am not aware of what you are not allowed to do relevant to what you wrote as: [...want to explain how a religious setting...led me to a bad choice...]
If you could clarfy that, then I could have a better ubderstandng of your posts here and be better able to respond to you.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:02:03
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 9:53:28
This is the link to my post
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20021001/msgs/1384.html
And this is a link to Dr Bobs reply
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20021001/msgs/1385.html
I will take a risk and explain my experience quickly...At 15 / 16 years old I was a regualr church goer.. A christian church - the Church of England... Confirmation classes in the week, or bible studies class, and church every sunday. This was a personal choice I made, and my parents didn;t attend church with me.
During my GCSE's (they are the national school exams you take at 16 in the UK,) I missed a sunday service as I had an exam on the MOnday morning that I had to study for. Sunday evening my minister called me to ask why I had been missing and I explained. I was told that my faith should be more important that my exams, which would dictate my furture.
A few weeks later I went to talk to my minister about whether I should stay in study or not, as I was unhappy in my school and wanted to attend my local college, which my parents were opposed to. My minister, very strongly told me, that I shoudl leave school and get a job. I was in the top 5% students in my school, and university, at the least, was expected of me.
I followed my ministers advice to leave school at 16 and get a job. Something I now regrest HUGELY as my career is severely limited by not having a degree.I hope this help you understand my points.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 10:18:01
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:02:03
NikkiT2,
You wrote that [...my minister told me that I should quit school and get a job...]
Could you clarify if there was a rational ever given to you by the minister for you to [quit school and get a job] with the option for you to [not] respond if you think that the answer would be inappropriate to this forum and I will respect your choice not to give the rational by the minister , if there was one given. If you could, then I could have a better understanding of your other part in your posts here and be better able to respond to your posts. As a retired teacher, I am shocked to hear that [anyone] would tell anyone to quit school and get a job at age 16.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:23:56
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 10:18:01
It was 12 years ago now Lou, and my memory isn't great I'm afraid.
He himself had left school at 16, before returning to college to study Theology. I htink he felt this would be a good path for me to follow.. but once you are eanring money, it is very hard to suddenly stop earning a good wage.
Sorry I can't remember more.
Nikki
Posted by oracle on December 12, 2002, at 10:27:12
In reply to Re: A Faith board answer, posted by Dr. Bob on December 11, 2002, at 18:45:57
> The idea is, I'm trying now to have that board be more clearly supportive of religious faith. And therefore letting people say having religion is better than not.
So the faith board is the only place where you do not have to be supportave of others, provided the "others" do not share your faith.
Thats odd.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 10:36:27
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:23:56
NT2,
Well, I am relievd to hear from you that there was no circumstance surroundng your situation at that time and that it was only that [...he himself had left school at 16... and then returned to college...and was saying that his path would be good for [you] to follow].
But now you write that[...it is hard to go back to school when you are making good money...]
Now you have given me some additional info. that helps me to understand what you are writing here. I would have many reccomendations for your situation, but I believe that could be better done on the [social] board. On the admin. side, though, could you give any more clarifcation, if you would like, as to how this ties in with rayww's post?
If you could, then I could have a better understading about your situation reletive to the import of rayww's post and your responses and then [I] could respond to your posts better.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 10:48:26
In reply to Re: A Faith board answer, posted by oracle on December 12, 2002, at 10:27:12
oracle,
Thank you for your interst in this discussion.
You wrote,[...the faith board is the only place where you do not have to be supportive of others, provided the "others" do not share your faith.]
Could you clarify your statemen,[...only place ...not have to be supportive...]? It is my understanding that the faith board only allowed [supportive] posts to faith.
If you could clarify this, thenI could have a better understading of your post and be better able to discuss this here.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by oracle on December 12, 2002, at 14:04:33
In reply to Re: A Faith board answer » oracle, posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 10:48:26
Lou, if I said "all dogs are canines" you would ask for clarification !
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 15:02:40
In reply to Re: A Faith board answer » Lou Pilder, posted by oracle on December 12, 2002, at 14:04:33
oracle,
I appreciate your humor. But there is a serious part of your post in question that I was asking for clarification of. You see, It is my understanding that the faith board is created for those that are seeking support in [faith in God] and that it [goes without saying] that people can express their faith there without being labled as being [unsupportive to other faiths] by those of a diffferent faith, or no faith or agnostiscism or something else. This is what I understand [freedom of religion] to be. It means [to me] that we accept other's faiths and we do not take the position that if someone expresses their faith [that is puts down someone else's faith, or is non-supportive of the oter's faith]. We take the position of [tolerance].
When I tell of my faith experiance here, I understand that there are other faith expriances by others here and I respect their faith and I am not saying that your faith, or other's faith is wrong or that mine is the only way. And I have been striving here to try to clarify my own position and that is why I was asking for you to clarify [your] post in question. You see, I do not know what other's faiths entail. I understand that the Road that I found myself on was just that. The Road that I found [myself]on. You and others could be on some other Road and I respect that. I am only telling of my expeiance here, and others are telling their experiance here also, because we have been invited here to do so because this is a mental health board and if there are positive things from faith that people want to share with others so that the potential to help others has that possibility, then the faith board is the place to do so. And the guidlines are such, now, that the faith board is open to do so without haveing to be concerned that one's faith experiance constitutse the [non-support] of other faiths. It is my understanding that the guidline now is if those that feel that their faith is being [non-supported] because someone has a different faith than them, that the faith board is not for them. I would like to hear any one's faith experiance here and anyone can express their faith in God on the faith board without the fear of beng labled as [putting down others, or being non-supportive] because of it. People that talk about, for just one example, Mormomism, do not put down my faith or are deemed [non-supportive] by me. I think that it is wonderfull for those of different faiths than mine to express their faith here.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 16:06:47
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2002, at 10:36:27
It was simply the fcat that i felt rayww's post was saying that people with faith make better decisions.. I found that not very nice.. I was using my case as an example that it isn;t always the case that faith leads to better decision making.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 7:24:26
In reply to Re: A Faith board question » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 16:06:47
I'm not sure I feel at all comfortable with the current direction of the faith board. As a Christian, one thing I have always been uncomfortable with was the idea that you have to believe in Jesus to be "saved". I've always felt that if any eternal life was to be given, it was always up to God to determine who would get it.
I think I preferred the old "no one right road" rules. Is that still a rule?
I guess that's a pretty personal reason for not liking the new rules. Perhaps the best approach is for me to stay away from the faith board.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 7:59:06
In reply to Re: The new faith board direction - Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 7:24:26
It seems, to my understanding, you can say what you like as long as you are a Christian (my first attempt at this post said as long as the post was Christian... but some of the posts certainly are not what I would call Christian!!)... Or at least a religion that believes in the same One God.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 9:50:28
In reply to Hear Hear Dinah » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 7:59:06
I don't think it's a matter of bias on Dr. Bob's part. I'm sure that Hindus would have the same freedom.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 10:15:24
In reply to Re: Well, to be fair » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 9:50:28
So, do you htink it would be OK for a Hindu to say that the Hindu way of life led to better decision making than a Christian way of life??!!
I don't think someone would get away with that personally
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 10:51:20
In reply to Re: Well, to be fair » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 10:15:24
> So, do you htink it would be OK for a Hindu to say that the Hindu way of life led to better decision making than a Christian way of life??!!
>Yes, if that is the rule for what is allowable, I have every confidence that Dr. Bob will treat all earnest posters equally, regardless of faith.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 11:36:36
In reply to Re: Well, to be fair, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 10:51:20
OK!!!
Just being stroppy today!!
Nikki
Posted by dreamerz on December 13, 2002, at 17:38:23
In reply to Re: Well, to be fair » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 11:36:36
> OK!!!
>
> Just being stroppy today!!
>
> Nikki"Tis the season to be jolly , tra la la la la ..lalalala.
Time for joy and to go off yer trolley , la la la.etc."
No stroppyness allowed : )
Administrative issues on yer marks....
GO!kissy kissy
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 18:55:36
In reply to Re: Well, , posted by dreamerz on December 13, 2002, at 17:38:23
You're so fab!! *l* I put my tree up today.. and then got stroppy with the tinsel!! *lol* But your post makes it alllll better :o)
Nikki x
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2002, at 9:12:56
In reply to Hear Hear Dinah » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 7:59:06
> it [goes without saying] that people can express their faith … without being labled as being [unsupportive to other faiths] by those of a diffferent faith, or no faith or agnostiscism or something else. This is what I understand [freedom of religion] to be. It means [to me] that we accept other's faiths and we do not take the position that if someone expresses their faith [that is puts down someone else's faith, or is non-supportive of the oter's faith].
> It is my understanding that the guidline now is if those that feel that their faith is being [non-supported] because someone has a different faith than them, that the faith board is not for them. I would like to hear any one's faith experiance here and anyone can express their faith in God on the faith board without the fear of beng labled as [putting down others, or being non-supportive] because of it.
>
> LouHmm, I first read that as "it goes without saying that people can express their faith without being unsupportive to those of a different faith, or no faith", which sounded good to me…
> I'm not sure I feel at all comfortable with the current direction of the faith board. As a Christian, one thing I have always been uncomfortable with was the idea that you have to believe in Jesus to be "saved".
>
> I think I preferred the old "no one right road" rules. Is that still a rule?
>
> I guess that's a pretty personal reason for not liking the new rules. Perhaps the best approach is for me to stay away from the faith board.
>
> Dinah> It seems, to my understanding, you can say what you like as long as you are a Christian... Or at least a religion that believes in the same One God.
>
> NikkiLet me try to clarify a little. My idea was to let people say that having religious faith *of some sort* was better than not having any religious faith at all. But not that *particular* religious beliefs were better than others.
So it would be OK to say that religion *in general* was the right road, but not that any *specific* religion was.
I realize that wouldn't be supportive of those without any religious faith, but the goal at PBF is to support those who *do* have religious faith. OTOH, the larger PB community certainly includes those who don't have any religious faith, so allowing that there when it wouldn't be considered civil elsewhere might hurt some feelings or create some antagonism (or just be confusing)...
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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