![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 9:14:35
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread)- a rebuke of sorts » JonW » wendy b., posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 7:24:53
> >think we want to glorify suicide. But remembering and honoring the person could never be harmful to the P-Babble community, if it's handled with care and thoughtfulness.
>
> This is my opinion on the issue, and I couldn't have said it better myself.Actually, if you'll allow me to change my mind, I agree with this except for "could never". I think that's an over-generalization and I like "isn't likely to" much better. I'm probably being way to picky, but it's another reason to hear myself type so why not? :-)
Jon
Posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 9:34:26
In reply to I take that back or something like that..., posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 9:14:35
> > >think we want to glorify suicide. But remembering and honoring the person could never be harmful to the P-Babble community, if it's handled with care and thoughtfulness.
> >
> > This is my opinion on the issue, and I couldn't have said it better myself.
>
> Actually, if you'll allow me to change my mind, I agree with this except for "could never". I think that's an over-generalization and I like "isn't likely to" much better. I'm probably being way to picky, but it's another reason to hear myself type so why not? :-)
>
> Jon
Jon,As usual, your measured responses are very helpful and honest. "Could never" is, of course, an all-or-nothing type of linguistic ploy, something I'm prone to as a bipolar who has to fight hard to keep her hat on sometimes...
I appreciate your taking the time to talk about this with me...
Wendy
Posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 10:19:34
In reply to Re: As someone who once lurked, suicidal. . ., posted by Zo on June 26, 2002, at 2:13:48
Zo,
Of course we've been writing to each other off-line, but on the subject at hand, I'm going to add my comments to yours here.
I'm so glad you're writing on the Boards again, it took some doing, maybe a topic as hefty as this one, to bring you back. Whatever it is, just want you to know, more people than me are looking for your name here. We've missed you...> . . .I can tell you that the *last* thing I wanted to know was that someone here didn't make it. The board was to me, then, a pocket of hope. I could not have borne it, I think, had I been hit in the face with a page, with a mention, with *any* evidence of a real suicide.
I absolutely respect and take seriously your comments on this. I truly think it's all going to depend on the way the tribute page is handled. If it's a big, bold link in bright colors or whatever, that draws attention to itself unnecessarily, that mentions the way she died, and makes a big deal of it, that would be the wrong approach. If it were merely a link on the main page, and then a series of remembrances collected in one spot, then I don't see how that could be harmful.
> As a person, of course I'd like to have a memorial to Sar.
>
> But as a once enormously vulnerable reader of PB. .. In that stripped down state of mind, everything's a scorecard, you're looking for signs--okay, she is making it, and here's someone else who sounds bad off, but they're making it. . .As I wondered in my last post, why is this more difficult for a potential suicide to deal with than somebody posting on PSB, for ex, that they're ready to off themselves? Were there any on the boards when you first came? If so, when you read those, did that make you feel closer to actually doing the act? Or were they less real, since the person, if posting, was still alive?
> Maybe we need to separate our personal feelings about Sar.. . from the implicit obligation that a public message board has.But personal feelings are all over this board. They don't detract from the implicit obligation of the Board to educate. Sometimes the person succeeds, yes. But we can still go on, we can still talk about it. Bob didn't remove the threads that focused solely on Sar's death when it happened. If he thought it would detract form the board's mission, he would have taken them off, I think...
> I know I'd rather err on the side of hope. I'd rather we extended the fiction that we're all going to make it. . .Well, you've said it right there - it IS a fiction. It doesn't always come out the way we think it should.
>I mean, why *document* that some don't.
Because it's real? I don't know.
>It could have been, for me, that last little nudge. Perhaps we have a serious responsiblity to *not* provide that reminder, given the situation of many who come looking for a site like this.It could have been, but how could we know for sure? The reminders are everywhere anyway. I don't have an inside line on the way things should be done, all I have are my reason, my intellect, and my feelings. Maybe my feelings ARE getting in the way. But I don't know how to take them out of the equation, and I don't know if they're on overdrive, or if they're normal... Maybe I'm being selfish? Maybe others like me are, too? Maybe we want the ineffable. But then again, maybe we'd settle for a simple page that honors the person in a quiet, simple way...
Thanks for contributing to the ongoing discussion... I do appreciate and honor your feelings on the matter, and hope we can come to some resolution that makes everyone happy. But maybe that's a fiction too?
Yours,
Wendy
Posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 10:59:35
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread)- a rebuke of sorts » JonW » wendy b., posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 7:24:53
Jon and all:
These are just my thoughts. I have spent way too much time on them, but this is an important issue to me as a one-time journalist. Sorry, it's long. :(
Censorship on Dr. Bob's site is one thing - it's his site.
censorship in theory is another:
"I think people are entitled to a good quality of life and we should do what we can as a society to ensure that -- including giving us the right to choose when we die. And censoring our news when reporting suicide may also be the right thing to do, who knows?"
Who determines that 'good' quality of life? Who determines what is 'right' in this context? Are those definitions stable or fluid?
Britain's looking at a bill that would strengthen a physician's ability to keep a mentally ill person hospitalized and on meds (against their will) for an extended period of time (see social thread - very interesting). This was prompted by the murder of someone by a schizophrenic. Is that justifiable?
An 'elite few' run things - everywhere - that's how it's always been, and I daresay how it will always be. I believe Cancerman is their cheif (that's a joke to liven things up :)).
The only recourse the majority has to avoid potentially horrific siutations, where those few get too much power, and too high a quality a life as compared to others, is the press. Without our first and foremost right, we have nothing.
Who needs protection? children. and animals. they have no "voice". do the mentally ill have a "voice"? until they are incarcerated in a system similar to the one being suggested in Britain (and Britain is, what, the world's Most civilized society, so how frightening is this?), they most certainly do.
If "society" withholds stories about suicides, then, should "it" withhold all bad news? What about copycatters? This debate has been going on for decades.
I'll say one thing - the press seems less responsible now than it has been since yellow journalism. There is no need to hound a former president Still because he has a sexual addiction; no need to publish pictures of a school shooting that are going to accomplish nothing but sales of that mag. No need to publish the details of an auto-erotic suicide of a rockstar (talk about influence - that targets teens, not adults).
But that's more of a sad example of a loss of ethics in our society, than a plausible argument for censorship.
- kk
Posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 11:15:46
In reply to Re: As someone who once lurked, suicidal. . . » Zo, posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 10:19:34
> Zo, I'm so glad you're writing on the Boards again,
Me too.
> I think, had I been hit in the face with a page, with a mention, with *any* evidence of a real suicide.
It's a valid point. So, we should be able to do a memorial not mentioning the suicide without a problem? This provides old-timers who knew Sar a sort-of "heads up" what's happened here, and they can ask for details.
> > But as a once enormously vulnerable reader of PB. .. In that stripped down state of mind, everything's a scorecard, you're looking for signs--okay, she is making it, and here's someone else who sounds bad off, but they're making it. . .
This is interesting, because numbers make (made?) no difference to me. Only people I go to know on the site could have helped me like they have at times.
All of Wendy's questions are good, I won't repeat them...
> > Maybe we need to separate our personal feelings about Sar.. . from the implicit obligation that a public message board has.
I like Wendy's response: 'But personal feelings are all over this board.'
That's obvious and true but was not my first reaction. My first reaction was to take your comment personally. :)
So, if it were someone I hadn't known or cared about? I don't know. I could certainly see why it would be important to others who had known that person. There are two issues fulfilled by a memorial here:
1. Some contributors want a memorial - that's reason enough. Does a vote need to be taken? (seriously).
2. A month after a death, that person still seems close. Two months? Then three? Then...?? it literally "memorializes" her on a site that she found to be an important part of the latter days of her life. If one searches for Sar now, there's only a tiny wisp of thread that holds her here yet. We are in the awkward position of not knowing her family and friends, though we were family and friends.I think when we get into the concept of "our responsibility" it can be touchy -- as in, "it's our responsibility to convert all Natives to Christians", i.e. the Inquisition. One can really believe that one is doing the "right" thing, even though it's really an attempt to accomplish other goals. (Not saying this about you, Zo, just in general).
I'm exhausted now.
- kk
Posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 11:37:52
In reply to censorship issues surrounding suicide... » JonW, posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 10:59:35
> "I think people are entitled to a good quality of life and we should do what we can as a society to ensure that -- including giving us the right to choose when we die. And censoring our news when reporting suicide may also be the right thing to do, who knows?"
>
> Who determines that 'good' quality of life? Who determines what is 'right' in this context? Are those definitions stable or fluid?.....Jon opposes censorship as a rule and believes there should be a memorial. Jon thought he was asking a pertinent question. Jon has not taken any apparent "side" but was trying to be thought provoking. Jon stepped in a big pile of *bleep*.....
Jon :)
Posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 12:15:14
In reply to For the record......, posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 11:37:52
and thought-provoking threads. :)
Posted by Fi on June 26, 2002, at 12:27:01
In reply to Re: Memorials, posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2002, at 22:27:53
> > > I still do plan to have a memorial sort of area.
> >Someone did offer to host this on their own site- that would be an option which might be faster (if you are short of time or avoiding it!) and might address some of your concerns by taking the info off your site, but making it accessible via a link somewhere on the Board(s)?
>Already most of the boards link to the "coping with crisis" folder in Psycho-Babble Tips:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
>
> but it could be highlighted there. And maybe expanded...
>
Sorry- have to confess I havent read all the posts in this thread, but I cant work out *what* you are thinking of highlighting and expanding on this bunch of tips?
Dr Bob and othersI edit the 'coping with crisis' tips.
I'm not sure about them- has anyone in crisis followed this link and got what they needed? I can see its better than nothing, but I suppose I am concerned that someone that distressed wont have the concentration to follow the link to the list, select one from the list,and follow that. I have tried to tackle this a bit by not putting too many links on (are there still too many?) and organising them in 'crisis' priority.
Would be easier to have a single link on your pages to a key crisis support site as well, maybe?
Fi
Posted by Fi on June 26, 2002, at 12:37:31
In reply to Re: Memorials - links to articles? » Dr. Bob, posted by wendy b. on June 25, 2002, at 22:43:12
I hope he does if they are available, but unfortunately the publishers of academic books and journals dont usually allow free online access to the full-text. They're too busy protecting their profits!
There are a few honourable exceptions which provide free full text eg the general medical journal BMJ at http://bmj.com/
There is one relevant BMJ article, 'Reporting suicide The effect of media coverage on patterns of self harm' but its from 1994 (with 2 1999 articles linked to it). Url is http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/308/6941/1446
Fi
Posted by jane d on June 26, 2002, at 13:07:58
In reply to personal issues with a memorial..., posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 11:15:46
> 1. Some contributors want a memorial - that's reason enough. Does a vote need to be taken? (seriously).
KK,
Seriously. A vote is exactly what I have been dreading ever since plans for an elaborate memorial (ie more than Bob's regular thread of remembrances) were first proposed. I've kept out of these threads so far because I hate the idea of that and because I didn't want to hurt anyone on this site, especially you. But it's not fair to assume that everyone wants a memorial. You say the lack of one causes you pain; I think I would be hurt by seeing that kind of link every time I signed onto the board. Is that a good enough reason not to do it? Of course not. I can probably adjust to it just as you have adjusted to a site without a memorial. But I don't think it's as clear cut a decision as "some people want this and it won't hurt anybody else".
> 2. A month after a death, that person still seems close. Two months? Then three? Then...?? it literally "memorializes" her on a site that she found to be an important part of the latter days of her life. If one searches for Sar now, there's only a tiny wisp of thread that holds her here yet.
Do you think that is because people don't feel they have the right to talk about Sar?
> I think when we get into the concept of "our responsibility" it can be touchy -- as in, "it's our responsibility to convert all Natives to Christians", i.e. the Inquisition. One can really believe that one is doing the "right" thing, even though it's really an attempt to accomplish other goals. (Not saying this about you, Zo, just in general).Or it's our responsibility to call the cops when we see the burn marks on the kid next door? It is tricky but I think most of us make judgments of this kind every day and usually that's a good thing.
I don't think we should dismiss the argument that glorifying suicide could encourage others to do the same thing even if this isn't absolutely proven. Now in middle age, the idea of suicide because the world doesn't appreciate how great I am is completely alien but I remember once being an age when that made sense. I suppose that it could be another example of an attempt to convert the indians and do the "right thing" but I worry especially about the posters and lurkers who are closest to Sar's age and background and I do feel an urge to protect them.
Memorials only talk about the good things. I think that's partly superstition and partly because we want to avoid hurting other mourners. Would you want a place where people were free to say the negative things or would that hurt you even more? But how honest is it if only flattering memories are allowed?
Jane, whose thoughts are even more jumbled up now than they were when she started typing.
Posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 13:30:57
In reply to i thought it was actually one of our more civil..., posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 12:15:14
> and thought-provoking threads. :)
What? Don't I get credit for my *bleep*?! Isn't it ironic? Don't ya think?
Am I unfunny again :-)
Jon
Posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 14:02:12
In reply to Memorial: an opposing view » krazy kat , posted by jane d on June 26, 2002, at 13:07:58
>> Seriously. A vote is exactly what I have been dreading ever since plans for an elaborate memorial (ie more than Bob's regular thread of remembrances) were first proposed.
Jane - I'm really tired and weepy because of the mail order med business which is ruining our freaking prescription coverage right now, imho, so I'm not really going to respond. BUT, I never said I felt everyone wanted this. There is a strong support, though, and I stand by my arguments thus far.>> But I don't think it's as clear cut a decision as "some people want this and it won't hurt anybody else".
I didn't say this either.
> Or it's our responsibility to call the cops when we see the burn marks on the kid next door?That's a child - they do need to be protected - they don't have a "voice" - see my other post.
>> I don't think we should dismiss the argument that glorifying suicide could encourage others to do the same thing even if this isn't absolutely proven.
I didn't dismiss it, I just disagree...
>> I do feel an urge to protect them.
That's fine - it'll be up to Dr. B anyway... and he doesn't agree with me by all accounts.
> > Memorials only talk about the good things.
Boy, that's not true in my extended family...
kk, who answered anyway and is tired and needs to get offline, addiction is etting in, as well as numb-butt.
Posted by Krazy Kat on June 26, 2002, at 15:16:38
In reply to Re: Memorial: an opposing view » » jane d, posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 14:02:12
i'm so tired and upset right now. i didn't think you were addressing me specifically, i just sort of responded that way.
of course your concerns are legitimate and were very clearly stated.
Posted by shar on June 27, 2002, at 3:36:19
In reply to Re: As someone who once lurked, suicidal. . ., posted by Zo on June 26, 2002, at 2:13:48
Zo,
Your post is very poignant.would it have lessened the impact of someone's death by their own hand to see the aftermath? Possibly not pushing you over the edge. To read and realize how much people cared, to see the pain that rumbled through the community, to understand in a more personal way how far reaching suicide is, how important our touch may be to someone?
And, even, to think to yourself..."Why Sar? No, she was wonderful! How could she want to do away with her sweet, generous self?" And maybe question your own impulses in that light?
I'm just wondering, because I can personally relate to what you wrote, yet what happened after Sar's death I saw as an affirmation of the importance of life.
Shar
Posted by shar on June 27, 2002, at 3:53:53
In reply to Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob, posted by JonW on June 24, 2002, at 20:44:44
I'm late getting into this thread and just adding my thoughts, not really pointing this at you, Jon. Reading your post I can somewhat agree with press guidelines, yet this is a board of people who suffer from a disease, and the disease has claimed one of us.
It is a conundrum. If this place was for people with cancer, we would expect and probably deal openly with death. Even if a member chose assisted suicide it would have a different slant to it, I bet. Like, he or she tried as hard as they could as long as they could.
But, because this is a psych board, it's not as clear cut. There really aren't any ways to measure 'trying hard' as there are for cancer (chemo, radiation, surgery, etc.). Maybe we could count the number of med combinations the person took, how many years they struggled....but many people aren't able to make the same kind of comparison they could with a physically manifested illness.
That, in spite of the fact that I think most here would agree that dealing with severe mental pain is about the same as dealing with severe physical pain. Especially if it has gone on for years and years.
Oh, well. I am sure there will be a loving memorial to Sar eventually, and one that is appropriate to this community.
I'm glad you spoke your thoughts on this.
Shar
Posted by JonW on June 27, 2002, at 5:55:54
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob » JonW, posted by shar on June 27, 2002, at 3:53:53
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.grief.html
Jon
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 27, 2002, at 10:14:14
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob » JonW, posted by shar on June 27, 2002, at 3:53:53
> I am sure there will be a loving memorial to Sar eventually, and one that is appropriate to this community.
OK, to review, there's two distinct ideas I'm considering now, a relatively fixed memorial and a separate board focused on mourning.
Regarding the first, JonW (in another thread, below) got me thinking about PB Tips, and it was relatively easy to put something together there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Memorials_001025155886/Sar_001025155922
You'll tell me what you think? Like I said in the subject line, this is just a first attempt. But hopefully a step toward something loving and appropriate.
Bob
Posted by judy1 on June 28, 2002, at 12:46:48
In reply to Re: Memorial, first attempt, posted by Dr. Bob on June 27, 2002, at 10:14:14
Dr. Bob,
I looked through it and felt it was tastefully done and hope it aids in closure for those who are grieving for Sar. I guess I am supportive of a separate board, versus opening up this one to a constant reminder. I write this with no disrespect intended, just as a person who has had to deal with this issue too much in my life- judy
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2002, at 12:52:31
In reply to Re: Memorial, first attempt, posted by Dr. Bob on June 27, 2002, at 10:14:14
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Memorials_001025155886/Sar_001025155922
>
> You'll tell me what you think?Hmm, no response... I took a look at some of the articles I mentioned before, and one that happened to have a digest online:
http://www.ed.gov/databases/ERIC_Digests/ed446331.html
mentions the idea of a "treasure box":
> A treasure box is a box that you get from the grocery store. Decorate it with wrapping paper. Have each member of the family write down two or three of their best memories of the loved one. Put the remembrances in an envelope and put it into the box.
This was during a discussion of holidays, but I think it's the same general idea...
Bob
Posted by shar on June 29, 2002, at 2:54:45
In reply to Re: Memorial, first attempt, posted by Dr. Bob on June 27, 2002, at 10:14:14
I like it a lot, especially since it appears to express the sentiments of the community as a whole (the various perspectives is what I mean). It looked like you had a variety of posts, and I like that you included some of Sar's own posts.
If it is chosen as the memorial to have, an explanatory note of some sort might be helpful to people who are new.
Shar
Posted by krazy kat on June 30, 2002, at 10:01:18
In reply to Re: Memorial, first attempt, posted by Dr. Bob on June 27, 2002, at 10:14:14
i've been away and will be again, but wanted to say thanks for this start.
i'll write more later.
- kk
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2002, at 16:27:25
In reply to Re: Memorial, first attempt » Dr. Bob, posted by shar on June 29, 2002, at 2:54:45
> I like it a lot, especially since it appears to express the sentiments of the community as a whole (the various perspectives is what I mean). It looked like you had a variety of posts, and I like that you included some of Sar's own posts.
>
> If it is chosen as the memorial to have, an explanatory note of some sort might be helpful to people who are new.I'm not sure what I'd put in an explanatory note, do you have any suggestions? The way it is now, people who don't already know can just click on "Announcement"...
BTW, kk made a good point before:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020420/msgs/4816.html
about linking to resources, so I've added a link there to Fi's "coping with crisis" folder.
I appreciate all the feedback so far, thanks!
Bob
Posted by Zo on July 4, 2002, at 6:12:31
In reply to Re: As someone who once lurked, suicidal. . . » Zo, posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 10:19:34
Thanks, Wendy, for your kind words. It is difficult to know one's place in things, so I appreciate hearing about it.
>
>why is this more difficult for a potential suicide to deal with than somebody posting on PSB, for ex, that they're ready to off themselves?It's awfully simple thinking, in that state--posters are just talking about it. . but look, Sar did it, she succeeded. Sounds awful, but at that point, the success of someone's wish, into reality, well that says I can succeed at it too.
Hard to put into words. P'raps someone else can explain the tremendous pull. . .it feels almost like seduction, yes, that's it. .. Suicide has the most tremendously seductive pull. .
> But personal feelings are all over this board. They don't detract from the implicit obligation of the Board to educate. Sometimes the person succeeds, yes. But we can still go on, we can still talk about it. Bob didn't remove the threads that focused solely on Sar's death when it happened. If he thought it would detract form the board's mission, he would have taken them off, I think...
I don't disagree with a thing you've said. I just wondered if this isn't a time when we ought to lean towards the public responsiblity.> Well, you've said it right there - it IS a fiction. It doesn't always come out the way we think it should.
Of course not. But neither would you go about putting up knotting charts for someone ready to hanging herself.
Which isn't an exact analogy. . .but I don't know how to address the risk that we might be helping someone do the act. And that possibility, given the way suicidal people look for signs, is very real.
> >I mean, why *document* that some don't.
>
> Because it's real? I don't know.That's an advanced state of thinking, well beyond what is going on in one's head. . .there's no reasoning with it, and no cautionaries that matter, really, because it's already beyond that place, you know? You think you are beyond everything, it's a very heady drug in a way. .
> It could have been, but how could we know for sure?
Well, that's what I'm saying, so why not err on the side of caution. Suicide is very contagious, as I'm sure you know.
It's odd, because I am usually where you are. Truth, openness, reality.
>But then again, maybe we'd settle for a simple page that honors the person in a quiet, simple way...The way you put that. . I don't see anything at all "seductive." Perhaps thats the key. Staying real in a way that is not about suicide at all, but about Sar, and our feelings for her. Making no special point about how she went.
Give me, as a prospective suicide, nothing to latch onto. . and then I can't make it part of of my dark Magical Thinking, if you see. For it's very much about fantasy. .
>. I do appreciate and honor your feelings on the matter,
Mind you, I am not speaking of any vulnerability of my own; it's remarkable how thoroughly the state has vanished. Once the med package works. Am just bringing how one thinks, at those times, to the discussion.
>and hope we can come to some resolution that makes everyone happy. But maybe that's a fiction too?
I don't think so. If by happy you mean satisfactory. But then, I tend to believe that which is settled upon through careful dialogue ends up having a certain rightness to it.
Bob probably has a clearer sense of all this, at least legally, and the legalaties may suggest how to address the issue of the moral necessity to reduce risk.
Zo
Posted by Zo on July 4, 2002, at 6:45:30
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread)- a rebuke of sorts » JonW, posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 0:32:04
Wendy,again, I admire your passionate energy, but you must be aware that your thoughts about the matter are informed by your emotional and mental energy, and so they are very far away from the thoughts one has at suicidal times.> I absolutely HATE that term: suicide "contagion"! Like it's leprosy or something. Suicide isn't a skin disease, or HIV, or herpes! It isn't "catching"!
I understand where you're coming from, and it healthy. . but as such, it's nearly irrelevant. Long ago, a friend shot himself over Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction, an illness we shared. . .and I was so scared, because he opened up my dialogue with death, it's a slippery slope, and in this way contagious..
>Such actions may contribute to suicide contagion by suggesting to susceptible persons that society is honoring the suicidal behavior of the deceased person,
That's too Idea. No one is thinking about abstracts and ideas at such times, and certainly not so simplistically. The thinking doesn't happen in a normal mind. It is a whole nother state. And ideas about suicide--anything outside oneself at all--might as well not exist.
> Again: "suicide contagion" (sic).
> OK, it MAY suggest to people who are susceptible that it's honoring the person, and it may NOT. One idea on that subject is as valid as anotherYes, but in one idea, a person may dies.
>Are their INTERESTS more important? What about the interests of the people who are grieving Sar's death? Don't our feelings and thoughts on the matter count too? Not more than anyone else's, but not less either.
Yes, less. Less is appropriate. .. just as one would be mindful of not putting up the diagrams of knots, or leave pieces of rope lying around. . giving up a bit of what is of interest to oneself in favor of more important matters. In favor of the well-being of someone who is, we recognize, at the bottom of existence. This is just what one does.
> But remembering and honoring the person could never be harmful to the P-Babble community, if it's handled with care and thoughtfulness.
Of course you are right.
> Lastly, I'd like to mention is that Sar didn't believe commiting suicide was a crime or a horrible act; she said that she felt it was a right that shouldn't be taken away from us. Who's to say that a person in terrible emotional pain might not be better off gone?An interesting but rather advanced idea. We're talking about lurkers, readers, visitors. To avoid any hint of glamour, do you suppose that might do the trick?
Zo
Posted by Zo on July 4, 2002, at 6:49:14
In reply to Re: Memorial, first attempt, posted by Dr. Bob on June 27, 2002, at 10:14:14
I love it, in that it gives one a lively, life-full sense of who she was. I love using her words, she was really something. And just filling one page with Sar. . .reflects the muchness, it's very rich.Zo
This is the end of the thread.
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