![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 43. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 9:34:05
Dr. Bob:
This is a post in a thread re: "Where is sar?"
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020616/msgs/25604.html
As you can see, the poster is not really being uncivil, but the tone and just the question is pretty harsh for those of us who Were there, who went through all of that and still are...
If you would please just leave the thread re: the announcement even on the social board, and, of course, the thread where folks contributed their "memories".
Please. It's going to continue to cause pain to people as it's brought up unexpectedly again and again. how can they have closure?
And I still don't understand why there's any problem with doing this for a regular poster, a major contributor to this site AND to your research.
- kk
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2002, at 19:16:43
In reply to Dr. Bob - please reconsider sar thread..., posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 9:34:05
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020616/msgs/25604.html
>
> As you can see, the poster is not really being uncivil, but the tone and just the question is pretty harsh for those of us who Were there, who went through all of that and still are...
>
> If you would please just leave the thread re: the announcement even on the social board, and, of course, the thread where folks contributed their "memories".
>
> Please. It's going to continue to cause pain to people as it's brought up unexpectedly again and again. how can they have closure?I still do plan to have a memorial sort of area. A link to which would be in there with the links to PB Tips, PB Open, etc. Sorry it's taken me so long to get to. Maybe I'm avoiding it?
Closure happens in different ways. Reminders can be painful, but can also be part of the grieving process. I'm sorry you're still hurting.
Bob
Posted by Lini on June 24, 2002, at 20:28:37
In reply to Re: sar thread..., posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2002, at 19:16:43
Dr. Bob, the human being. what an incredibly nice message for KK to find here . . . thank you, it did alot for me too.
lurking, looking,
-L
Posted by JonW on June 24, 2002, at 20:44:44
In reply to Re: sar thread..., posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2002, at 19:16:43
> I still do plan to have a memorial sort of area. A link to which would be in there with the
Hi,
I don't know how to ask this question without seeming insensitive, but I'll try. Do you think a memorial for people who commit suicide is a good idea? Doesn't this glorify this type of thing and so it could result in other people doing it. Let me quote a section of Kay Jamison's book "Night Falls Fast" which references some guidlines developed by the CDC (I think) for the media when reporting suicides. Tell me what you think:
"News coverage is less likely to contribute to suicide contagion when reports of community expressions of grief (e.g., public eulogies, flying flags at half-mast, and erecting permanent public memorials) are minimized. Such actions may contribute to suicide contagion by suggesting to susceptible persons that society is honoring the suicidal behavior of the deceased person, rather than mourning the person's death."
Anyway, just something to consider... and please, I'm not trying to be insensitive to Sar's memory or anyone mourning her death. Actually, I'm raising a question that may be significant to susceptible people. There are several guidlines that may not be followed if people are allowed to freely post their thoughts about someone's suicide. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a memorial of some sort, but care should be taken to protect this community.
Just a thought,
Jon
Posted by mair on June 24, 2002, at 22:06:09
In reply to Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob, posted by JonW on June 24, 2002, at 20:44:44
Jon
I think of memorials as really being a celebration of a person's life, and he or she is no less deserving of that simply because of the manner of death. (I'm not suggesting that you would think this) I continue to find it difficult to come to terms with Sar's death. It's been almost 3 months now and I find that I still think of her in some context more days than not. People here have mostly moved on and Sar is not someone I feel very comfortable discussing with people who do not understand the nature of cyber relationships. I'm not sure I would even write about Sar if a memorial board was set up, but i think I'd feel that maybe I'd been given some measure of permission to dredge up painful Board history. Maybe the memorial is not necessary at all, but I don't see anything in the concept which would glorify suicide to any degree.
Mair
Posted by IsoM on June 24, 2002, at 23:47:32
In reply to Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob, posted by JonW on June 24, 2002, at 20:44:44
Jon, it wouldn't glorify suicide by having a memorial for sar. It would be remembering her - who she was, not her manner of death. She wasn't just a sometime poster but was a long-time member & was special. I really don't think any one would think of suicide as a good alternative because of it. We just want her to be remembered. Having others know something of sar, herself, & not go on about her death, won't give others posting here ideas of escape through suicide - just that this is a caring cyber-community where an individual really does matter to others here & that we don't simply forget about someone.
And no, Jon, I'm not imply that you are insensitive in the least. Just letting you know how we feel about sar.
Posted by JonW on June 25, 2002, at 7:52:34
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob » JonW, posted by mair on June 24, 2002, at 22:06:09
> I think of memorials as really being a celebration of a person's life, and he or she is no less deserving of that simply because of the manner of death. (I'm not suggesting that you
Hi Mair,
I'm not suggesting that those who die by their own hand are less *deserving* of a memorial, but I am suggesting we at least entertain the thought that it could be more beneficial to this community to minimize any memorial. I'm really not sure what I think about having a memorial or not (which is not to say I think anyone is less deserving of one), I mean, it's hard for me to separate emotion from science. In any event, I just thought the question should be raised.
>would think this) I continue to find it difficult to come to terms with Sar's death. It's been almost 3 months now and I find that I still think of her in some context more days than not. People here have mostly moved on and Sar is
I'm sorry for the loss of those close to Sar and I'm sorry you've had such trouble coming to terms with things. Have you thought about seeing a psychologist to help you through this difficult time?
>Board history. Maybe the memorial is not necessary at all, but I don't see anything in the concept which would glorify suicide to any degree.
I think it's a matter of a susceptible person *mistaking* the memorial to be honoring the suicide rather than mourning a loss. I don't know if you've read "Night Falls Fast", but Kay Jamison makes a pretty convincing argument to approach these things with some caution, imho.
Jon
Posted by JonW on June 25, 2002, at 8:27:20
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » JonW, posted by IsoM on June 24, 2002, at 23:47:32
>it. We just want her to be remembered. Having others know something of sar, herself, & not go on about her death, won't give others posting here ideas of escape through suicide - just that this is a caring cyber-community where an individual really does matter to others here & that we don't simply forget about someone.
Hi IsoM,
I can't say that I disagree with you. In fact, you're probably right but I wanted to raise the question so that Dr. Bob doesn't just jump into creating a memorial board without thinking about it first -- well, Dr. Bob's a lazy bum who never does anything anyway, but just in case... ;)
Let me quote another guidline that may apply:
"Empathy for family and friends often leads to a focus on reporting the positive aspects of a suicide completer's life. For example, friends or teachers may be quoted as saying the deceased person "was a great hid" or "had a bright future" while avoiding mentioning the troubles and problems the deceased person had. As a result, statements venerating the deceased person are often reported in the news. However, if the suicide completer's problems are not acknowledged along with these laudatory statements, suicidal behavior may appear attractive to other at-risk persons, especially those who rarely receive positive reinforcement for desireable behaviors."
Let me argue with myself on this one :) This community has a special understanding that suicide is often coupled with troubles and problems and and I don't think anyone here would be eluded by a memorial. However, I think a lot of people here (and a lot of lurkers) are hungry to receive positive reinformce and many are likely at-risk at any given time. Should any of this affect anything... I don't know, I'm mentally ill :-)
Maybe the best idea would be to have a memorial board but include guidelines for posting (not that they would have to be followed).
What do you think?
Jon
p.s. Here are the aspects of news coverage that can promote suicide contagion form the CDC:
* Presenting simplistic explanations for suicide.
* Engaging in repetitive, ongoing, or excessive reporting of suicide in the news.
* Providing sensational coverage of suicide.
* Reporting "how-to" descriptions of suicide.
* Presenting suicide as a tool for accomplishing certain ends.
* Glorifying csuicide or persons who commit suicide.
* Focusing on the suicide completer's positive characteristics.
Posted by krazy kat on June 25, 2002, at 11:00:54
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » JonW » IsoM, posted by JonW on June 25, 2002, at 8:27:20
Jon:
First off, your posts are not offensive at all, or insensitive to me, so don't worry about that.
Dr. Bob had mentioned the news thing when he said he didn't want anything in static type about her death awhile ago.
Have you, or you Dr. Bob ;), ever tried to commit suicide? If so, was hearing about it what "drove you to it"?
I have, so here is some personal experience.
A person who is suicide-prone is not going to go over the edge because of a news story about suicide or comments re: suicide on an internet site they just visited. One gets so self-involved when one is nearing suicide, so turned inward, that the outside world does not exist. A trigger could come from familiar immediate surroundings, but that's not what we're discussing here.
When Sar died, I asked Dr. Bob to offer support somehow to those of us on the site at that time. Now, it COULD have been a trigger then. Did we get any support? No. Any sessions with Dr. Bob online in case someone here was suicidal? No. That is why I left this site at that time.
Aren't we trying, as mentally ill people seeking recovery, to shatter the myths that perpetuate mental illness? I see it in the news. And I've read Kay's book (I am prejudiced here - I don't like her much). She is a spotlight-seeking person who has used experiences to further herself and not necessarily help others at all (in my humble opinion).
Sar died. She died of either suicide or an overdose. She is gone. We, as people who have committed ourselves to this site for Dr. Bob's research, and to each other, deserve (and I mean DESERVE) a place to memorialize Sar.
I rarely get this flared up, but the concept of hiding something from someone just because it might "make" them do a certain act - it goes against every concept in this country (and Canada :), and where are you mist?).
- kk
Posted by krazy kat on June 25, 2002, at 11:05:47
In reply to Re: sar thread..., posted by Dr. Bob on June 24, 2002, at 19:16:43
> I still do plan to have a memorial sort of area. A link to which would be in there with the links to PB Tips, PB Open, etc. Sorry it's taken me so long to get to. Maybe I'm avoiding it?I'm sorry if that's the case, and certainly feel for you if this affected you as well. But Dr. Bob, but I also feel strongly that since you are the captain here, your concerns go on the back burner. If something should be done, it should be done.
> Closure happens in different ways. Reminders can be painful, but can also be part of the grieving process. I'm sorry you're still hurting.Thanks. So, if reminders are O.K., there is no problem having something up about Sar? Even in static type, if her suicide isn't mentioned? Such as:
"We will miss you, sweet angel Sar."
Newcomers won't know the story, and oldtimers can ask? :)
- kk
Posted by JonW on June 25, 2002, at 12:54:02
In reply to hiding suicide... » JonW, posted by krazy kat on June 25, 2002, at 11:00:54
> Dr. Bob had mentioned the news thing when he said he didn't want anything in static type about her death awhile ago.
I didn't know, after all, I'm somewhat of a newcomer and I didn't know Sar...
> Have you, or you Dr. Bob ;), ever tried to commit suicide? If so, was hearing about it what "drove you to it"?
I hope not! Without Dr. Bob, psycho-babble would be a such an "uncivil" place! ;-) We might accidentally say what we mean using our own words!
I personally have never attempted suicide -- I've been hospitalized twice, though. I think some people *attempt* suicide as a cry for help and some people use suicide as a "cure" to end their suffering. Personally, I've considered both. When it comes to using suicide as a cry for help, I didn't have the balls. When it comes to ending one's lifelong suffering -- I've come pretty damn close. Good think I didn't, though!
> A person who is suicide-prone is not going to go over the edge because of a news story about suicide or comments re: suicide on an internet site they just visited. One gets so self-involved when one is nearing suicide, so turned inward, that the outside world does not exist. A trigger
This is an excellent description of what it is like, or at least it matches how I was feeling. I was obsessed with suicide. It was a dark pleasure -- like a drug I'd do in private. It's all I would talk about with myself and all I would talk about with my loved ones. I'd think about what method would cause me and my family the least amount of pain. I'd think of how to do it to make an intelligent ironic statement -- one was hanging myself from a bridge above train tracks. Drowning seemed like a dark but warm embrace as my body would shut down. I would definitely do it at night in warm water. Anyway, it's hard to explain but there is a difference between feeling suicidal and being suicidal. The thoughts, the emotions, the sense is just so much darker. I'm sure you understand this, and as you've gone all the way I may not even understand as well as you do.
>And I've read Kay's book (I am prejudiced here - I don't like her much). She is a spotlight-
Oh you're breaking my heart! :) Kay Redfield Jamison is wonderful, not just anyone receives the MacArthur Fellows grant...
> Sar died. She died of either suicide or an overdose. She is gone. We, as people who have committed ourselves to this site for Dr. Bob's research, and to each other, deserve (and I mean DESERVE) a place to memorialize Sar.
I agree.
> I rarely get this flared up, but the concept of hiding something from someone just because it might "make" them do a certain act - it goes against every concept in this country (and Canada :), and where are you mist?).
I feel like such a hypocrite even suggesting the possibility of something that could be described as "hiding", but I thought the issue should be raised and I'm glad people are talking about it. I think we should do whatever's best for the community, whatever that is. For the record, I'm a freethinker and a humanist... so I'm all for our country's wonderful constitution!
Jon
p.s. Look at me, causing more controversy :)
Posted by oracle on June 25, 2002, at 15:12:53
In reply to Re: hiding suicide... » JonW » krazy kat , posted by JonW on June 25, 2002, at 12:54:02
I think some people *attempt* suicide as a cry for help and some people use suicide as a "cure" to end their suffering.
Oracle here.....
I never bought the "Talking abiut it causes more people to do it" argument. This statement has more to do with other peoples lack of comfort with this subject, I think.
"A cry for help" I think by talking about suicide
and other issues allows people to find the way to ask for help, instead of hurting themselves.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2002, at 22:27:53
In reply to Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob, posted by JonW on June 24, 2002, at 20:44:44
> > I still do plan to have a memorial sort of area.
>
> I don't know how to ask this question without seeming insensitive, but I'll try. Do you think a memorial for people who commit suicide is a good idea? Doesn't this glorify this type of thing and so it could result in other people doing it.That has in fact been a concern of mine...
> There are several guidlines that may not be followed if people are allowed to freely post their thoughts about someone's suicide. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a memorial of some sort, but care should be taken to protect this community.
I totally agree. But one thing I should clarify is that my idea was *not* to start a separate suicide board or anything like that, just to collect together some posts by or about her:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020420/msgs/4767.html
Also, Krazy Kat had a good point:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020420/msgs/4816.html
about it being an opportunity to link to resources. Already most of the boards link to the "coping with crisis" folder in Psycho-Babble Tips:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
but it could be highlighted there. And maybe expanded...
Also, there would be room there to remember others besides Sar. So it might not all necessarily relate to suicide. But I'm not aware (thankfully) of anyone else here who has died. But maybe (links to) posts in memory of non-Babblers could be included, too. But maybe then it *should* be a separate board, focused on mourning or loss or grief or something...
Hmm, I did a quick search, and there's some reading I should probably do:
Hollander, Erica Michaels. Cyber community in the valley of the shadow of death. Journal of Loss & Trauma. Vol 6(2) Apr-Jun 2001, 135-146.
Lange, Alfred; van de Ven, Jean-Pierre; Schrieken, Bart; Emmelkamp, Paul M. G. Interapy. Treatment of posttraumatic stress through the Internet: A controlled trial. Journal of Behavior Therapy & Experimental Psychiatry. Vol 32(2) Jun 2001, 73-90.
Dyer, Kirsti A; Thompson, Cole D. Internet use for Web-education on the overlooked areas of grief and loss. Cyberpsychology & Behavior. Vol 3(2) Apr 2000, 255-270.
Gary, Juneau Mahan; Remolino, Linda. Coping with loss and grief through on-line support groups. In: Bloom, John W; Walz, Garry R. (2000). Cybercounseling and cyberlearning: Strategies and resources for the millennium. Alexandria, VA, US: American Counseling Association.
Sofka, Carla J. Social support "internetworks," caskets for sale, and more: Thanatology and the information superhighway. Death Studies. Vol 21(6) Oct-Dec 1997, 553-574.
Bob
Posted by wendy b. on June 25, 2002, at 22:43:12
In reply to Re: Memorials, posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2002, at 22:27:53
Dear Bob,
Thank you for working through this in the ways that you can. I wonder if you could provide links to the articles you mention? I for one would be very interested in reading them.
I know, I know, turning the subject of the loss of Sar into a science/research project... It's only ONE way to cope, but one I feel ready for.
Thank you very much,
Wendy> But maybe then it *should* be a separate board, focused on mourning or loss or grief or something...
>
> Hmm, I did a quick search, and there's some reading I should probably do:
>
> Hollander, Erica Michaels. Cyber community in the valley of the shadow of death. Journal of Loss & Trauma. Vol 6(2) Apr-Jun 2001, 135-146.
>
> Lange, Alfred; van de Ven, Jean-Pierre; Schrieken, Bart; Emmelkamp, Paul M. G. Interapy. Treatment of posttraumatic stress through the Internet: A controlled trial. Journal of Behavior Therapy & Experimental Psychiatry. Vol 32(2) Jun 2001, 73-90.
>
> Dyer, Kirsti A; Thompson, Cole D. Internet use for Web-education on the overlooked areas of grief and loss. Cyberpsychology & Behavior. Vol 3(2) Apr 2000, 255-270.
>
> Gary, Juneau Mahan; Remolino, Linda. Coping with loss and grief through on-line support groups. In: Bloom, John W; Walz, Garry R. (2000). Cybercounseling and cyberlearning: Strategies and resources for the millennium. Alexandria, VA, US: American Counseling Association.
>
> Sofka, Carla J. Social support "internetworks," caskets for sale, and more: Thanatology and the information superhighway. Death Studies. Vol 21(6) Oct-Dec 1997, 553-574.
>
> Bob
Posted by Lini on June 25, 2002, at 22:47:31
In reply to Re: Memorials, posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2002, at 22:27:53
Gotta love a man that does his research. I am going to go ahead and trust that you will find a way to both recognize Sar and support/protect this community. I look forward to whatever you come up with.Trust! Must be the extra wellbutrin.
;)
-L
Posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 0:32:04
In reply to Memorial (Re: sar thread...) » Dr. Bob, posted by JonW on June 24, 2002, at 20:44:44
Dear John,
Since you have come close to suicide yourself, I appreciate your views on the subject at hand. First, I'd like to talk about Kay Jameson, who brought the subject of bipolar disorder out in the open. __An Unquiet Mind__ was a very valuable contribution to current discussions and treatment of mental illness in general, and bipolar disorder in particular.
However, I have to agree wholeheartedly with Krazy Kat that Jameson has utilized her own illness in ways that I think are unsavory at times. Yes, I know she has won the MacArthur grant, and those ARE often very special, gifted people. It's on my list of things to do, applying for one next year. But MacArthur fellows aren't perfect, and they're not gods, and their theories may or may NOT stand the test of time.
> I don't know how to ask this question without seeming insensitive, but I'll try. Do you think a memorial for people who commit suicide is a good idea? Doesn't this glorify this type of thing and so it could result in other people doing it.I don't think this has been proven definitively AT ALL. There have been studies, yes, but no convincing conclusions have been drawn yet, IMO.
>Let me quote a section of Kay Jamison's book "Night Falls Fast" which references some guidlines developed by the CDC (I think) for the media when reporting suicides. Tell me what you think:OK, we're not a news or media organization here, we're a mental health board for support and education. We don't "broadcast" and affect the way millions of people understand suicide.
> "News coverage is less likely to contribute to suicide contagion (...)I absolutely HATE that term: suicide "contagion"! Like it's leprosy or something. Suicide isn't a skin disease, or HIV, or herpes! It isn't "catching"! Sorry, I really think Jameson (or whomever thought this up) is grasping at straws with that kind of terminology...
>when reports of community expressions of grief (e.g., public eulogies, flying flags at half-mast, and erecting permanent public memorials) are minimized. Such actions may contribute to suicide contagion by suggesting to susceptible persons that society is honoring the suicidal behavior of the deceased person, rather than mourning the person's death."Again: "suicide contagion" (sic).
OK, it MAY suggest to people who are susceptible that it's honoring the person, and it may NOT. One idea on that subject is as valid as another, in my experience. AND, to go a step further, maybe we ARE in the mood to have a memorial "honoring" Sar. I honor her every day by thinking of her and wincing at the loss and wishing she were here to brighten my life again, in the unique way that she had. Yeah, I don't think we shouldn't HONOR her. I think we should. And it wouldn't be for the way she died, it would be for the way she lived...
> Anyway, just something to consider... and please, I'm not trying to be insensitive to Sar's memory or anyone mourning her death. Actually, I'm raising a question that may be significant to susceptible people.As KK says, it wouldn't instigate a susceptible person any more than posts that say: "I'm thinking I'm close to killing myself," which we see quite commonly on the boards. And then discussion ensues that actively discourages the person, most times, from doing it. Acknowledging the fact of suicide is, to me, a more helpful way of dealing with the subject than hiding from it and pretending it doesn't exist. We show that's true here every day.
>There are several guidlines that may not be followed if people are allowed to freely post their thoughts about someone's suicide. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a memorial of some sort, but care should be taken to protect this community.
>
> Just a thought,
> Jon
As for "protecting the community," are the people who are susceptible to suicide a "protected" class of individuals here? (Yes, they're protected, in that we do try to help them in a time of crisis, but I'm making another point...) Are their INTERESTS more important? What about the interests of the people who are grieving Sar's death? Don't our feelings and thoughts on the matter count too? Not more than anyone else's, but not less either. I don't think we want to glorify suicide. But remembering and honoring the person could never be harmful to the P-Babble community, if it's handled with care and thoughtfulness.Lastly, I'd like to mention is that Sar didn't believe commiting suicide was a crime or a horrible act; she said that she felt it was a right that shouldn't be taken away from us. Who's to say that a person in terrible emotional pain might not be better off gone? We discussed this at length, more than once.
Maybe, in order to honor Sar appropriately, we'd have to contemplate these thoughts, rather than pretend they don't exist. Maybe we'd have to challenge the assumption that we all agree suicide is "wrong." Maybe she's in a better place, a place that she wanted to be? I don't know. But we did talk about the right to suicide, and it's in the archives if anyone wants to read a good summary of her thoughts on the topic... Interesting in this context.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20010717/msgs/7857.html
All the best to everyone who's taking the time to write about this,
Wendy
Posted by Zo on June 26, 2002, at 2:13:48
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread)- a rebuke of sorts » JonW, posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 0:32:04
. . .I can tell you that the *last* thing I wanted to know was that someone here didn't make it. The board was to me, then, a pocket of hope. I could not have borne it, I think, had I been hit in the face with a page, with a mention, with *any* evidence of a real suicide.
As a person, of course I'd like to have a memorial to Sar.
But as a once enormously vulnerable reader of PB. .. In that stripped down state of mind, everything's a scorecard, you're looking for signs--okay, she is making it, and here's someone else who sounds bad off, but they're making it. . .
Maybe we need to separate our personal feelings about Sar.. . from the implicit obligation that a public message board has.
I know I'd rather err on the side of hope. I'd rather we extended the fiction that we're all going to make it. . . I mean, why *document* that some don't. It could have been, for me, that last little nudge. Perhaps we have a serious responsiblity to *not* provide that reminder, given the situation of many who come looking for a site like this.
Anyway, just some thoughts. . .
Zo
Posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 7:24:53
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread)- a rebuke of sorts » JonW, posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 0:32:04
> >Let me quote a section of Kay Jamison's book "Night Falls Fast" which references some guidlines developed by the CDC (I think) for the media when reporting suicides. Tell me what you think:
>
> OK, we're not a news or media organization here, we're a mental health board for support and education. We don't "broadcast" and affect the way millions of people understand suicide.Hi Wendy,
I wasn't suggesting that we're the news or that we should follow the guidlines given to the media. I just wanted to raise the question as it may or may not apply to us.
> I absolutely HATE that term: suicide "contagion"! Like it's leprosy or
Ugh! I know what you mean! You've talked me down from suicide, now go wash your hands! ;-)
> OK, it MAY suggest to people who are susceptible that it's honoring the person, and it may NOT. One idea on that subject is as valid as another, in my experience. AND, to go a step
I didn't mean to take a side on this issue, and I'm not sure that I have. I just wanted to raise a question that could be important. I believe I've done that. I'm glad you, me, and others have posted on this thread so that Dr. Bob is urged to think before blindly doing anything... just in case.
>further, maybe we ARE in the mood to have a memorial "honoring" Sar. I honor her every day by thinking of her and wincing at the loss and wishing she were here to brighten my life again, in the unique way that she had. Yeah, I don't
I'm sorry I didn't know Sar. She sounds like a wonderful person. I think that a memorial is an absolutely wonderful idea, and I hope it helps you come to terms with your loss.
>think we shouldn't HONOR her. I think we should. And it wouldn't be for the way she died, it would be for the way she lived...
Memorials are for the living, for mourning someone's death -- no matter how they died. However, if there is *any* reason to think this could be done in an irresponsible way, that should at least be considered.
>Acknowledging the fact of suicide is, to me, a more helpful way of dealing with the subject than hiding from it and pretending it doesn't exist. We show that's true here every day.
It's definitely better to talk about something than not, and that's why I started this discussion -- even if it's about, in a way, *not* talking about something. I'm open minded enough to entertain these kinds of thoughts, and from what I've read, you and many others are as well. For this reason and many others, I love being a part of this site.
>think we want to glorify suicide. But remembering and honoring the person could never be harmful to the P-Babble community, if it's handled with care and thoughtfulness.
This is my opinion on the issue, and I couldn't have said it better myself.
> Lastly, I'd like to mention is that Sar didn't believe commiting suicide was a crime or a horrible act; she said that she felt it was a right that shouldn't be taken away from us.
I have to say, I don't disagree with this. And certainly not if you don't have a good prognosis. I agree with physician assisted suicide, and after all, what's the difference between a mental and physical illness? Anyway, a whole different discussion altogether as you know!
> Maybe, in order to honor Sar appropriately, we'd have to contemplate these thoughts, rather than pretend they don't exist. Maybe we'd have to challenge the assumption that we all agree suicide is "wrong." Maybe she's in a better
Very interesting. My opinion is that suicide isn't wrong in all cases, and I don't even think "wrong" is the right word -- no pun intended ;-) I think religion put this idea in people's heads that it's "wrong". I think people are entitled to a good quality of life and we should do what we can as a society to ensure that -- including giving us the right to choose when we die. And censoring our news when reporting suicide may also be the right thing to do, who knows?
>suicide, and it's in the archives if anyone wants to read a good summary of her thoughts on the topic... Interesting in this context.
I read her posts... I can only imagine how painful it must be for you to go through the archives.
Jon
Posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 9:14:35
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread)- a rebuke of sorts » JonW » wendy b., posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 7:24:53
> >think we want to glorify suicide. But remembering and honoring the person could never be harmful to the P-Babble community, if it's handled with care and thoughtfulness.
>
> This is my opinion on the issue, and I couldn't have said it better myself.Actually, if you'll allow me to change my mind, I agree with this except for "could never". I think that's an over-generalization and I like "isn't likely to" much better. I'm probably being way to picky, but it's another reason to hear myself type so why not? :-)
Jon
Posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 9:34:26
In reply to I take that back or something like that..., posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 9:14:35
> > >think we want to glorify suicide. But remembering and honoring the person could never be harmful to the P-Babble community, if it's handled with care and thoughtfulness.
> >
> > This is my opinion on the issue, and I couldn't have said it better myself.
>
> Actually, if you'll allow me to change my mind, I agree with this except for "could never". I think that's an over-generalization and I like "isn't likely to" much better. I'm probably being way to picky, but it's another reason to hear myself type so why not? :-)
>
> Jon
Jon,As usual, your measured responses are very helpful and honest. "Could never" is, of course, an all-or-nothing type of linguistic ploy, something I'm prone to as a bipolar who has to fight hard to keep her hat on sometimes...
I appreciate your taking the time to talk about this with me...
Wendy
Posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 10:19:34
In reply to Re: As someone who once lurked, suicidal. . ., posted by Zo on June 26, 2002, at 2:13:48
Zo,
Of course we've been writing to each other off-line, but on the subject at hand, I'm going to add my comments to yours here.
I'm so glad you're writing on the Boards again, it took some doing, maybe a topic as hefty as this one, to bring you back. Whatever it is, just want you to know, more people than me are looking for your name here. We've missed you...> . . .I can tell you that the *last* thing I wanted to know was that someone here didn't make it. The board was to me, then, a pocket of hope. I could not have borne it, I think, had I been hit in the face with a page, with a mention, with *any* evidence of a real suicide.
I absolutely respect and take seriously your comments on this. I truly think it's all going to depend on the way the tribute page is handled. If it's a big, bold link in bright colors or whatever, that draws attention to itself unnecessarily, that mentions the way she died, and makes a big deal of it, that would be the wrong approach. If it were merely a link on the main page, and then a series of remembrances collected in one spot, then I don't see how that could be harmful.
> As a person, of course I'd like to have a memorial to Sar.
>
> But as a once enormously vulnerable reader of PB. .. In that stripped down state of mind, everything's a scorecard, you're looking for signs--okay, she is making it, and here's someone else who sounds bad off, but they're making it. . .As I wondered in my last post, why is this more difficult for a potential suicide to deal with than somebody posting on PSB, for ex, that they're ready to off themselves? Were there any on the boards when you first came? If so, when you read those, did that make you feel closer to actually doing the act? Or were they less real, since the person, if posting, was still alive?
> Maybe we need to separate our personal feelings about Sar.. . from the implicit obligation that a public message board has.But personal feelings are all over this board. They don't detract from the implicit obligation of the Board to educate. Sometimes the person succeeds, yes. But we can still go on, we can still talk about it. Bob didn't remove the threads that focused solely on Sar's death when it happened. If he thought it would detract form the board's mission, he would have taken them off, I think...
> I know I'd rather err on the side of hope. I'd rather we extended the fiction that we're all going to make it. . .Well, you've said it right there - it IS a fiction. It doesn't always come out the way we think it should.
>I mean, why *document* that some don't.
Because it's real? I don't know.
>It could have been, for me, that last little nudge. Perhaps we have a serious responsiblity to *not* provide that reminder, given the situation of many who come looking for a site like this.It could have been, but how could we know for sure? The reminders are everywhere anyway. I don't have an inside line on the way things should be done, all I have are my reason, my intellect, and my feelings. Maybe my feelings ARE getting in the way. But I don't know how to take them out of the equation, and I don't know if they're on overdrive, or if they're normal... Maybe I'm being selfish? Maybe others like me are, too? Maybe we want the ineffable. But then again, maybe we'd settle for a simple page that honors the person in a quiet, simple way...
Thanks for contributing to the ongoing discussion... I do appreciate and honor your feelings on the matter, and hope we can come to some resolution that makes everyone happy. But maybe that's a fiction too?
Yours,
Wendy
Posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 10:59:35
In reply to Re: Memorial (Re: sar thread)- a rebuke of sorts » JonW » wendy b., posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 7:24:53
Jon and all:
These are just my thoughts. I have spent way too much time on them, but this is an important issue to me as a one-time journalist. Sorry, it's long. :(
Censorship on Dr. Bob's site is one thing - it's his site.
censorship in theory is another:
"I think people are entitled to a good quality of life and we should do what we can as a society to ensure that -- including giving us the right to choose when we die. And censoring our news when reporting suicide may also be the right thing to do, who knows?"
Who determines that 'good' quality of life? Who determines what is 'right' in this context? Are those definitions stable or fluid?
Britain's looking at a bill that would strengthen a physician's ability to keep a mentally ill person hospitalized and on meds (against their will) for an extended period of time (see social thread - very interesting). This was prompted by the murder of someone by a schizophrenic. Is that justifiable?
An 'elite few' run things - everywhere - that's how it's always been, and I daresay how it will always be. I believe Cancerman is their cheif (that's a joke to liven things up :)).
The only recourse the majority has to avoid potentially horrific siutations, where those few get too much power, and too high a quality a life as compared to others, is the press. Without our first and foremost right, we have nothing.
Who needs protection? children. and animals. they have no "voice". do the mentally ill have a "voice"? until they are incarcerated in a system similar to the one being suggested in Britain (and Britain is, what, the world's Most civilized society, so how frightening is this?), they most certainly do.
If "society" withholds stories about suicides, then, should "it" withhold all bad news? What about copycatters? This debate has been going on for decades.
I'll say one thing - the press seems less responsible now than it has been since yellow journalism. There is no need to hound a former president Still because he has a sexual addiction; no need to publish pictures of a school shooting that are going to accomplish nothing but sales of that mag. No need to publish the details of an auto-erotic suicide of a rockstar (talk about influence - that targets teens, not adults).
But that's more of a sad example of a loss of ethics in our society, than a plausible argument for censorship.
- kk
Posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 11:15:46
In reply to Re: As someone who once lurked, suicidal. . . » Zo, posted by wendy b. on June 26, 2002, at 10:19:34
> Zo, I'm so glad you're writing on the Boards again,
Me too.
> I think, had I been hit in the face with a page, with a mention, with *any* evidence of a real suicide.
It's a valid point. So, we should be able to do a memorial not mentioning the suicide without a problem? This provides old-timers who knew Sar a sort-of "heads up" what's happened here, and they can ask for details.
> > But as a once enormously vulnerable reader of PB. .. In that stripped down state of mind, everything's a scorecard, you're looking for signs--okay, she is making it, and here's someone else who sounds bad off, but they're making it. . .
This is interesting, because numbers make (made?) no difference to me. Only people I go to know on the site could have helped me like they have at times.
All of Wendy's questions are good, I won't repeat them...
> > Maybe we need to separate our personal feelings about Sar.. . from the implicit obligation that a public message board has.
I like Wendy's response: 'But personal feelings are all over this board.'
That's obvious and true but was not my first reaction. My first reaction was to take your comment personally. :)
So, if it were someone I hadn't known or cared about? I don't know. I could certainly see why it would be important to others who had known that person. There are two issues fulfilled by a memorial here:
1. Some contributors want a memorial - that's reason enough. Does a vote need to be taken? (seriously).
2. A month after a death, that person still seems close. Two months? Then three? Then...?? it literally "memorializes" her on a site that she found to be an important part of the latter days of her life. If one searches for Sar now, there's only a tiny wisp of thread that holds her here yet. We are in the awkward position of not knowing her family and friends, though we were family and friends.I think when we get into the concept of "our responsibility" it can be touchy -- as in, "it's our responsibility to convert all Natives to Christians", i.e. the Inquisition. One can really believe that one is doing the "right" thing, even though it's really an attempt to accomplish other goals. (Not saying this about you, Zo, just in general).
I'm exhausted now.
- kk
Posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 11:37:52
In reply to censorship issues surrounding suicide... » JonW, posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 10:59:35
> "I think people are entitled to a good quality of life and we should do what we can as a society to ensure that -- including giving us the right to choose when we die. And censoring our news when reporting suicide may also be the right thing to do, who knows?"
>
> Who determines that 'good' quality of life? Who determines what is 'right' in this context? Are those definitions stable or fluid?.....Jon opposes censorship as a rule and believes there should be a memorial. Jon thought he was asking a pertinent question. Jon has not taken any apparent "side" but was trying to be thought provoking. Jon stepped in a big pile of *bleep*.....
Jon :)
Posted by krazy kat on June 26, 2002, at 12:15:14
In reply to For the record......, posted by JonW on June 26, 2002, at 11:37:52
and thought-provoking threads. :)
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