![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shelliR on June 2, 2001, at 10:15:34
Hi Dr. Bob.
It does seem like I'm picking on you--two posts in a row, but about this "Please be supportive" thing.
I realize that you are concerned that someone might come to the board, read too many bad things, and decide not to take an antidepressant. I think you have to take that risk or this board is going to become amazingly, boringly saccharine. It is one thing to call someone an idiot (not civil) and another to say, "beware, you will understand these withdrawal symptoms in the future." (maybe not correct, maybe a bit pushy, but not uncivil. ) No one got a warning if they said, you should never ever take opiates for an antidepressant--you will end up like my friend in horrible pain, or living on the street.First, the rule was to be civil. Now the rule keeps extending. At one point, you gave a warning for an incorrect information in a post, which I also responded to. Now you are giving a warning for not being supportive. What comes next?
I realize this is your board, but you seem to me to be getting more controlling in some ways over the year that I've been participating. You cannot try to create your perfect board without losing something. I can accept (and did accept) being told to be civil. But if you ever tell me to be more supportive, I'm afraid I'll have to start putting hugs in all my posts.
((shelli))
Posted by Shar on June 2, 2001, at 23:14:52
In reply to Re: Please be supportive: Dr. Bob, posted by shelliR on June 2, 2001, at 10:15:34
>xx Hi Dr. Bob.
>
> It does seem like I'm picking on you--two posts in a row, but about this "Please be supportive" thing.
> I realize that you are concerned that someone might come to the board, read too many bad things, and decide not to take an antidepressant. I think you have to take that risk or this board is going to become amazingly, boringly saccharine. It is one thing to call someone an idiot (not civil) and another to say, "beware, you will understand these withdrawal symptoms in the future." (maybe not correct, maybe a bit pushy, but not uncivil. ) No one got a warning if they said, you should never ever take opiates for an antidepressant--you will end up like my friend in horrible pain, or living on the street.
>
> First, the rule was to be civil. Now the rule keeps extending. At one point, you gave a warning for an incorrect information in a post, which I also responded to. Now you are giving a warning for not being supportive. What comes next?
>
> I realize this is your board, but you seem to me to be getting more controlling in some ways over the year that I've been participating. You cannot try to create your perfect board without losing something. I can accept (and did accept) being told to be civil. But if you ever tell me to be more supportive, I'm afraid I'll have to start putting hugs in all my posts.
>
> ((shelli))
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 3, 2001, at 10:40:19
In reply to Re: Please be supportive: Dr. Bob, posted by shelliR on June 2, 2001, at 10:15:34
> It does seem like I'm picking on you--two posts in a row
It's OK, it's good to get feedback.
Digression: I experimented with letting people be uncivil to me, but decided that even if that were OK with me, it wasn't good for the community. It was like saying it was OK to break some windows, but not others...
> I realize that you are concerned that someone might come to the board, read too many bad things, and decide not to take an antidepressant. I think you have to take that risk or this board is going to become amazingly, boringly saccharine.
I think I understand what you're saying, but I think it's a matter of degree. If a lot of people have negative experiences and post about them, fine. That might deter others, but maybe that would be a good thing in that case. But it's different for someone to say:
> > all these people that say they love effexor xr, will reach a point where they think they don't need it anymore, try to go off and ... hate it then.
> No one got a warning if they said, you should never ever take opiates for an antidepressant--you will end up like my friend in horrible pain, or living on the street.
Did someone say that? I wish I could've done something to keep that thread from blowing up, maybe I missed something early on that I should've responded to?
> First, the rule was to be civil. Now the rule keeps extending. At one point, you gave a warning for an incorrect information in a post, which I also responded to. Now you are giving a warning for not being supportive. What comes next?
>
> you seem to me to be getting more controlling in some ways over the year that I've been participating. You cannot try to create your perfect board without losing something.I know, I'm not happy about it either, more and more toes to watch:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20010315/msgs/1366.html
I loved the idea of just needing one rule, but I think it turned out not to be enough. Yes, we lose something, too, so the issue is whether the trade-off is worth it. Do you think it would be a significant loss, posts like the above?
> I can accept (and did accept) being told to be civil. But if you ever tell me to be more supportive, I'm afraid I'll have to start putting hugs in all my posts.
If I ever start saying people have to put hugs in their posts, someone please tell me it's time to retire! :-)
Bob
Posted by shelliR on June 3, 2001, at 20:14:56
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Dr. Bob on June 3, 2001, at 10:40:19
Okay, so I just picked out one comparison (Nikki, I'm not trying to pick on you, just happened to fit the bill).
deemed non supportive:
> > > all these people that say they love effexor xr, will reach a point where they think they don't need it anymore, try to go off and ... hate it then. < < < < <deemed supportive by omission of response of "please be supportive"
..... Cos Effexor doesn't give you a high... You say
Methdone doesn't, but it does, else you wouldn't feel better for it. I just believe,
that by taking a drug like methadone,
Vicodin etc, you are simply "Putting" off the pain..I'm not exactly sure what kind of pain was being put off here, but one poster1 told anther poster2 that
(1) methodone did make her high (although poster2 had taken methodone for years and said, no it did not make her high),- -nonsupportive
(2) poster1 could not make distinction between being high and being not depressed--inaccurate information
(3) poster1 told postesr2 that her choice of treatment would lead to a specific consequence which poster1 could not know.--inaccurate, non-supportive.Okay. Maybe the posts are not exactly alike, but to me they have more similarity than difference.
"Please don't overgeneralize regarding the future of others or what they're trying to get
across."Dr. Bob, that is a really murky directive. You could response to at least 15-20% of the posts, please don't overgeneralize about something.
>
> I loved the idea of just needing one rule, but I think it turned out not to be enough. Yes, we lose something, too, so the issue is whether the trade-off is worth it. Do you think it would be a significant loss, posts like the above?No, losing that post would not be significant, however I believe the tradeoff is really becoming dangerously close to a free speech issue on the board . We know we must be civil. Civility is somewhat fuzzy, but not enormously, and it's your call. I say, okay, I am willing to give up some free speech for civility on the board, because non-civility is the type of issue that escalates and becomes ugly very quickly and counterproductive to both education and support.
Other than civility, the more you come on to the board for warnings, the more you are censoring the exchange on the threads. There I feel like the tradeup is not worth it. Inaccurate information and worst case senarios are just part of the process of the board. Checks and balances should be provided by the participants on the board. The more often you say in so many words, "no, you can not say that on my board because it's not true" or "you cannot say that on my board because it's not supportive" (which I take to mean, it's not helpful to someone else, in your opinion), the larger your role becomes and the smaller the group role becomes.
If someone is giving inaccuate information, or nonsupportive information, you always have the option of posting correct information, or being more supportive, as we all do. Why make these issues authoritative issues?
Respectfully, (but getting a bit uneasy)
Shelli
Posted by stjames on June 3, 2001, at 23:46:19
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by shelliR on June 3, 2001, at 20:14:56
> Methdone doesn't, but it does, else you wouldn't feel better for it. I just believe,
> that by taking a drug like methadone,
> Vicodin etc, you are simply "Putting" off the pain..
>
> I'm not exactly sure what kind of pain was being put off here, but one poster1 told anther poster2 that
> (1) methodone did make her high (although poster2 had taken methodone for years and said, no it did not make her high),- -nonsupportive
> (2) poster1 could not make distinction between being high and being not depressed--inaccurate information
> (3) poster1 told postesr2 that her choice of treatment would lead to a specific consequence which poster1 could not know.--inaccurate, non-supportive.
>
> Okay. Maybe the posts are not exactly alike, but to me they have more similarity than difference.James here....
I disagree. One is saying for sure that something will happen to Effexor users, which is something clearly she/he cannot predict. The other is stating their opinion, "I just believe", but not making a statement that moves begond opinion to cover everybody.james
Posted by Shar on June 4, 2001, at 0:54:54
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Dr. Bob on June 3, 2001, at 10:40:19
I know one change that's occurred over the time I've been here is the number of people willing and able to point out misinformation, or willing to join a thread with a more pacific post and perhaps calm things down a bit. Oh, that's two things.
It seems like more of that calming stuff used to go on, plus people could take things more with a grain of salt, ie, understand that if someone says "everyone" they may not literally mean every entity in the universe, and they don't need a correction.
Finally, splitting the boards may contribute to a less supportive atmosphere or whatever, because it used to be that a social post that was supportive yet not med related could follow a med post, and the intermixing changed the "feeling" of the board.
Also, posters used to talk about history some. Like if someone had a particular problem in the past and posted something similar, someone could say "a few months ago you were talking about...." and it made the board feel more like a community (to me, at least).
The split boards--PB and PSB--seem to work ok, but the split is artificial and imposes artificial boundaries on what would normally take place in the course of a conversation. So it is bound to be awkward at times and not flow all that well.
Some more of my 2 cents.
Shar
Posted by stjames on June 4, 2001, at 1:06:18
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Shar on June 4, 2001, at 0:54:54
The split boards--PB and PSB--seem to work ok, but the split is artificial and imposes artificial boundaries on what would normally take place in the course of a conversation. So it is bound to be awkward at times and not flow all that well.
Some more of my 2 cents.
SharJames here....
OTOH, PSB has given rise to more non med issues. We also get to joke there more. To me more gets discussed with the split.
James
Posted by shelliR on June 4, 2001, at 1:14:12
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by stjames on June 3, 2001, at 23:46:19
> James here....
>
> I disagree. One is saying for sure that something will happen to Effexor users, which is something clearly she/he cannot predict. The other is stating their opinion, "I just believe", but not making a statement that moves begond opinion to cover everybody.
>
> james
Okay , so then all anyone has to do is to say I believe and that makes all the difference. So if the person above had said" I believe all these people that say they love effexor xr, will reach a point where they think they don't need it anymore, try to go off and...hate it then", that would make all the difference to you?If I say "Mary is a big fool", that is significantly different from saying , "I believe Mary is a big fool?"
"I believe" is always implied unless a specific other source is quoted--underneath the surface, it's simply semantics.We can go back and forth forever on the issue of semantics.
My basic point is that posts should not be censored for inaccurate or non-supportive information.
Or, rather, I BELIEVE that posts should not be censored for inaccurate or non-supportive information.Shelli
Posted by stjames on June 4, 2001, at 10:52:09
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » stjames, posted by shelliR on June 4, 2001, at 1:14:12
> If I say "Mary is a big fool", that is significantly different from saying , "I believe Mary is a big fool?"
James here....
Given that it is considered un civil on this list to call one a fool, in this case it really does not matter if it is your opinon or not, it is just uncivil.
James
Posted by shelliR on June 4, 2001, at 11:40:23
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by stjames on June 4, 2001, at 10:52:09
> > If I say "Mary is a big fool", that is significantly different from saying , "I believe Mary is a big fool?"
>
> James here....
>
> Given that it is considered un civil on this list to call one a fool, in this case it really does not matter if it is your opinon or not, it is just uncivil.
>
> JamesJames, I could make it so such easier for you to respond to my posts. If I say A, you always say B, and vice-versa. Next post, I could just write "A" at the very end and you could just answer under the subject line: "no, B (np)".
It appears to me that you simply search for some way to disagree with me, even if it is on a point not terribly germaine to the overall intent of my post. The predictibility has become somewhat tiresome, IMHO.
Shelli
Posted by stjames on June 4, 2001, at 13:13:54
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » stjames, posted by shelliR on June 4, 2001, at 11:40:23
>
> James, I could make it so such easier for you to respond to my posts. If I say A, you always say B, and vice-versa. Next post, I could just write "A" at the very end and you could just answer under the subject line: "no, B (np)".
>
> It appears to me that you simply search for some way to disagree with me, even if it is on a point not terribly germaine to the overall intent of my post. The predictibility has become somewhat tiresome, IMHO.
>
> ShelliJames here....
I "just" disagree with you, don't take it personally. I am intitled to my views and if they
happen to be different from yours this does not mean that I a picking apart your posts, I really have better things to do.The only problem with stating your views is that people may disagree. If one cannot take that without making it personal then they might be better off not entering into a discussion.
James
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2001, at 21:41:20
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by shelliR on June 3, 2001, at 20:14:56
> > ..... Cos Effexor doesn't give you a high... You say Methdone doesn't, but it does, else you wouldn't feel better for it. I just believe, that by taking a drug like methadone, Vicodin etc, you are simply "Putting" off the pain..
>
> one poster1 told anther poster2 that
> (1) methodone did make her high (although poster2 had taken methodone for years and said, no it did not make her high)You have a point there, that's what I'd call jumping to conclusions about the experience of someone else.
> (3) poster1 told postesr2 that her choice of treatment would lead to a specific consequence which poster1 could not know
The consequence being putting off the pain? I think I'd see that more as an interpretation of feeling better than as a prediction of a consequence...
> "Please don't overgeneralize regarding the future of others or what they're trying to get
> across."
>
> Dr. Bob, that is a really murky directive. You could response to at least 15-20% of the posts, please don't overgeneralize about something.Sorry, but that's the best I can do. Like Justice Potter Stewart said:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> Okay , so then all anyone has to do is to say I believe and that makes all the difference.
See the above link, I try to address that kind of tactic there. :-)
> Other than civility, the more you come on to the board for warnings, the more you are censoring the exchange on the threads. There I feel like the tradeup is not worth it. Inaccurate information and worst case senarios are just part of the process of the board. Checks and balances should be provided by the participants on the board. The more often you say in so many words, "no, you can not say that on my board because it's not true" or "you cannot say that on my board because it's not supportive" (which I take to mean, it's not helpful to someone else, in your opinion), the larger your role becomes and the smaller the group role becomes.
That's another good point. The flames I feel I need to try to put out asap, but in other cases I do think it might be better to wait and see whether checks and balances will be provided by others. Thanks for the feedback,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2001, at 21:50:28
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Shar on June 4, 2001, at 0:54:54
> It seems like more of that calming stuff used to go on
Hmm, maybe if people figure I'm going to do something, then they don't bother?
> plus people could take things more with a grain of salt, ie, understand that if someone says "everyone" they may not literally mean every entity in the universe, and they don't need a correction.
I think that might be because we're a larger, more diverse community now.
> Finally, splitting the boards may contribute to a less supportive atmosphere or whatever, because it used to be that a social post that was supportive yet not med related could follow a med post...
I still want that to be able to happen. Have I redirected posts in that context?
> The split boards--PB and PSB--seem to work ok, but the split is artificial and imposes artificial boundaries on what would normally take place in the course of a conversation. So it is bound to be awkward at times and not flow all that well.
It's another one of those tradeoffs. I'm trying not to get carried away redirecting, anyway, and to try to make those threads I do redirect easier to follow... Thanks for your input,
Bob
Posted by Shar on June 4, 2001, at 22:34:45
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2001, at 21:50:28
CAPS ARE TO SHOW WRITTEN BY SHAR
> > It seems like more of that calming stuff used to go on
>
> Hmm, maybe if people figure I'm going to do something, then they don't bother?COULD BE, or it could be the new diverse community, as you mentioned below. I do think it has to do with the sense of community or belonging to the same tribe.
>
> > plus people could take things more with a grain of salt, ie, understand that if someone says "everyone" they may not literally mean every entity in the universe, and they don't need a correction.
>
> I think that might be because we're a larger, more diverse community now.
>
> > Finally, splitting the boards may contribute to a less supportive atmosphere or whatever, because it used to be that a social post that was supportive yet not med related could follow a med post...
>
> I still want that to be able to happen. Have I redirected posts in that context?I DON'T BELIEVE you redirect unless the thread becomes mostly social or admin. My point was just about the mix that used to occur and continue whether the thread went from social to med to social to med again. More flexible. Not a criticism. Just a parameter.
>
> > The split boards--PB and PSB--seem to work ok, but the split is artificial and imposes artificial boundaries on what would normally take place in the course of a conversation. So it is bound to be awkward at times and not flow all that well.
>
> It's another one of those tradeoffs. I'm trying not to get carried away redirecting, anyway, and to try to make those threads I do redirect easier to follow... Thanks for your input,YOU ARE WELCOME and I didn't mean any of this to be critical. I guess I was just blunt; it is only my HO and "analysis" of what might be going on in and among the boards.
>
> Bob
Posted by shelliR on June 4, 2001, at 23:41:55
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2001, at 21:41:20
.
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 8, 2001, at 12:24:27
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Dr. Bob on June 3, 2001, at 10:40:19
Shelli,
I ahve included my email address on this message and I would appreciate that, in furture, instead of mentioning ,me in posts, or hinting at things I said that you feel I should be banned for, (eg, > No one got a warning if they said, you should never ever take opiates for an antidepressant--you will end up like my friend in horrible pain, or living on the street. ) that you infact address these issues directly toward me and not on this board.
If you feel you would like to further attack me, please keep it off this place where it is upsetting more thasn just myself.
nikki
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 8, 2001, at 18:23:08
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by NikkiT2 on June 8, 2001, at 12:24:27
> I would appreciate that, in furture, instead of mentioning ,me in posts, or hinting at things I said that you feel I should be banned for ... that you infact address these issues directly toward me and not on this board.
There's more than one way to skin a cat; I just want to say that I think it's OK to mention other posters here -- as long as it's done in a civil way.
> If you feel you would like to further attack me, please keep it off this place where it is upsetting more thasn just myself.
I'm sorry you feel you were attacked. But please even then try to avoid being accusatory. See:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks, and welcome back,
Bob
Posted by shelliR on June 8, 2001, at 21:09:06
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by NikkiT2 on June 8, 2001, at 12:24:27
> Shelli,
>
> I ahve included my email address on this message and I would appreciate that, in furture, instead of mentioning ,me in posts, or hinting at things I said that you feel I should be banned for, (eg, > No one got a warning if they said, you should never ever take opiates for an antidepressant--you will end up like my friend in horrible pain, or living on the street. ) that you infact address these issues directly toward me and not on this board.
>Nikki,
I'm sorry that you felt that I attacked you. It wasn't my intent; I DID NOT think you should get a warning from Dr. Bob for your statements to this board for your comments directed to Diane. I didn't think ANYONE should be warned for being "non-supportive". That was the overall point of my posts.I tried as best I could to be clear in my points, and I am sorry it caused you to feel like you were attacked. I do think the issue was rightly addressed on the board and if you read the posts again, I think you might understand the point was about not giving you any warnings, but rather addressing the parameters of giving warnings in general.
You have a choice to take me at my word or to believe that I purposely attacked you. I hope you will choose to take me at my word.
Shelli
Posted by NikkiT2 on June 10, 2001, at 15:05:20
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » NikkiT2, posted by shelliR on June 8, 2001, at 21:09:06
~holds hand out~
I'm feeling better about this now.. I felt all lonely and attacked before, but having re-read, I see your point through it! :o)
Nikki x
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2001, at 23:15:23
In reply to Re: Please be supportive, posted by Dr. Bob on June 3, 2001, at 10:40:19
> > No one got a warning if they said, you should never ever take opiates for an antidepressant--you will end up like my friend in horrible pain, or living on the street.
>
> Did someone say that? I wish I could've done something to keep that thread from blowing up, maybe I missed something early on that I should've responded to?I don't know. I felt bullied in that thread, myself. And yes, at least one person did express that very opinion: that it's never-ever okay to take opiates for depression. I found this hurtful and offensive, because opioids are the only treatment that has truly allowed me to feel like myself (although I have had partial success with some other treatments).
I also feel that such remarks perpetuate stigma and prejudice against "mental" illness: people have expressed the opinion that it's okay to use opioids for chronic [nocioceptive] pain, but not for mood disorders (emotional pain).
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2001, at 23:27:05
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » NikkiT2, posted by shelliR on June 8, 2001, at 21:09:06
> I didn't think ANYONE should be warned for being "non-supportive". That was the overall point of my posts.
I get the impression that "non-supportive" here is perhaps a euphemism for "uncivil" or "abusive." I returned to this board because Usenet had become dominated by trolls and name-callers, and I feel more comfortable on a moderated board. I would consider it a tragedy if P-B were to become as chaotic as Usenet has.
-elizabeth
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 15, 2001, at 0:30:44
In reply to Re: Please be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by Elizabeth on June 14, 2001, at 23:15:23
> > > No one got a warning if they said, you should never ever take opiates for an antidepressant--you will end up like my friend in horrible pain, or living on the street.
> >
> > Did someone say that? I wish I could've done something to keep that thread from blowing up, maybe I missed something early on that I should've responded to?
>
> I don't know. I felt bullied in that thread, myself. And yes, at least one person did express that very opinion: that it's never-ever okay to take opiates for depression.You don't happen to have the URL handy, do you?
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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