![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 18:03:18
In reply to Posting, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 7:08:48
To All - Thank you very much for your concern. The past couple of weeks have been testing my drug-free (antidepressant-free) status.
I just need a little time to sort out a few very personal, but not totally unexpected, problems,which all seemed to arise simultanously. My coworkers are aware of my situation and are helping me to cope and work through this.
I am sure a week with Greg and his family will help me immensely. Until I can work things through, there are several very capable people on this website who can help with any problems that may arise on PB.
I apologize for my acting out behavior and misreading, or reading into, several situations that I should have kept to myself. Sometimes my new status has left me more sensitive to things than should be. I will work through some of my current issues and be back better than ever, in a (hopefully) short while.
Thank you all (or, for those of you in the US, y'all) for your understanding.
Sincerely - Cam
Posted by tina on January 29, 2001, at 18:13:58
In reply to Re: Posting - To All, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 18:03:18
> To All - Thank you very much for your concern. The past couple of weeks have been testing my drug-free (antidepressant-free) status.
>
> I just need a little time to sort out a few very personal, but not totally unexpected, problems,which all seemed to arise simultanously. My coworkers are aware of my situation and are helping me to cope and work through this.
>
> I am sure a week with Greg and his family will help me immensely. Until I can work things through, there are several very capable people on this website who can help with any problems that may arise on PB.
>
> I apologize for my acting out behavior and misreading, or reading into, several situations that I should have kept to myself. Sometimes my new status has left me more sensitive to things than should be. I will work through some of my current issues and be back better than ever, in a (hopefully) short while.
>
> Thank you all (or, for those of you in the US, y'all) for your understanding.
>
> Sincerely - Cam
Posted by Mark H. on January 29, 2001, at 18:20:36
In reply to Posting, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 7:08:48
Hi All,
I've been holding my tongue for several weeks, attempting to assess how to be more supportive by reading others' interactions -- what works and what doesn't work -- without commenting. I have to admit that I'm more confused than ever about what constitutes "support" and "civility" at Psycho-Social-Babble. With regards to the latter, I find myself in the unenvious position of having to agree with "name" that there should be guidelines that flesh out the currently unspoken rules and expectations, which extend far beyond the request that all posters merely "be civil."
Two concepts traditionally supersede the principle that "this is so-and-so's board, so he/she gets to decide who stays and who goes."
The first is freedom of speech, which if limited at all (and I believe it should be, in this case), must be limited in a way that is reasonable, clearly defined and does not jeopardize the rights of participants.
The second is due process, which requires that anyone accused of wrongdoing has the right to confront his/her accuser and to have the matter decided by an impersonal third party based upon clearly defined rules.
These are basic consitutional rights that Dr. Bob and the University of Chicago arguably are bound to honor. That Psycho-Babble isn't "important" enough to come under legal scrutiny is beside the point. The point is that vague boundaries make for vague compliance, and that both psychological ethics and the rule of law forbid arbitrary punishment or arbitrary exclusion.
The definition of "support" seems to be taking an even worse battering recently. It is inconceivable to me in any sort of psychological group setting -- virtual or otherwise -- that the vague claims of a participant should go unquestioned or unchallenged. Such limits on "support" are appropriate only to the most elementary and unsophisticated of self help groups, where everyone present is presumed to be so completely incompetent that no comment other than slogans, sympathy or encouragement is considered safe to say (in which case a simple computer program could be written to respond "appropriately" 100% of the time).
Support groups, including peer support groups, need rules, guidelines, examples of forbidden behavior, and -- most importantly -- the openness and flexibility for people to try different approaches and techniques, even though doing so will inevitably lead to occasional failures and faux pas.
Rules need to be written not only for respondencts but for initial posters as well. One useful rule might be to require posters who are unsure about their ability to handle a range of responses to ask for what they want. There are times when people just want sympathy, for instance, and they consider attempts to penetrate beneath the surface an intrusion, an inappropriate attempt at analysis, or even some sort of personal attack. But at a forum set up for psychological support, the burden of limiting response might be more effectively placed on the poster than the responder. In the absence of stated values and expectations, it is reasonable and entirely civil and supportive for non-poster-limited responses to range from tears of sympathy to laughter at our shared human foibles. The most civil and supportive posting could be either warmly generic encouragement or a sharp suggestion that is at once honest, painful and badly needed. I don't think it is practical, necessary or particularly helpful to try to arbitrate therapeutic style in a peer support group on a case-by-case basis, as is currently being done.
Further, expressions of irritation and annoyance can be entirely civil and appropriate, and they are part of the range of feedback that is normal not only in peer groups but also as part of the social experience. If all feedback (except Dr. Bob's) is "supportive" in the sense recently enforced here, then there is no permitted mechanism for saying, "Hey! I think you're behavior is inappropriate!" In other words, there's no course-correction built into the process that helps shape and improve responses. A responder simply goes along fine until the dreaded "Please Be Civil" shows up in his or her thread, warning that he/she's about to be excluded.
I am concerned at times that, absent a lively diversity in style and delivery, this board is going to become a bland mush of mindless non-responses to real problems, and that the only people sure to feel welcome and empowered to respond will be the few saintly types like Noa and those who imagine that support is limited to saying things like "I'm sorry you hurt" and "You go, girl!" I think that, for many of us, genuine support is much more complex and uncertain than that.
If I didn't respect and admire Dr. Bob and the many wonderful people here who have made my life better, I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to write the above, so please keep that in mind. I think the size and scope of the board, the sheer quantity of responsibility, may tempt Dr. Bob to seek inappropriately simple solutions to complex issues of social interaction, a tiny fraction of which are at times problematic.
Somewhere between the "anything goes" model and the "support is saying nice things" model is something constructive and truly useful, as we have seen here many times. I hope that in the desire to reduce disputes and conflict, Dr. Bob doesn't defeat the best uses of this wonderful forum.
Thanks for listening.
Mark H.
Posted by Ron Hill on January 29, 2001, at 18:57:53
In reply to Re: Posting - To All, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 18:03:18
Cam,
My recommendation (for what its worth): Take some time away and come back fresh. Many here benefit from your expertise and your willingness to share it freely.
Rule #1: Don't sweat the small stuff.
Rule #2: Everything is small stuff.Please click on the link below. I wrote it before I knew what you're dealing with, but I think it might bring a smile anyway. Go with the Art Bell thing. :o)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010122/msgs/52902.html
-- Ron
------------------------------------------------> To All - Thank you very much for your concern. The past couple of weeks have been testing my drug-free (antidepressant-free) status.
>
> I just need a little time to sort out a few very personal, but not totally unexpected, problems,which all seemed to arise simultanously. My coworkers are aware of my situation and are helping me to cope and work through this.
>
> I am sure a week with Greg and his family will help me immensely. Until I can work things through, there are several very capable people on this website who can help with any problems that may arise on PB.
>
> I apologize for my acting out behavior and misreading, or reading into, several situations that I should have kept to myself. Sometimes my new status has left me more sensitive to things than should be. I will work through some of my current issues and be back better than ever, in a (hopefully) short while.
>
> Thank you all (or, for those of you in the US, y'all) for your understanding.
>
> Sincerely - Cam
Posted by Deb R on January 30, 2001, at 0:22:55
In reply to Re: Posting - To All, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 18:03:18
Hey Cam,
Have a great time visiting Greg and his family, you guys are all lucky to at least be in the same hemisphere, so there is the chance of meeting some time. Now, if I could just talk some of you into heading to Australia, that would be cool!
Hope to see you here again real soon!
Sincerely,
Deb.
> To All - Thank you very much for your concern. The past couple of weeks have been testing my drug-free (antidepressant-free) status.
>
> I just need a little time to sort out a few very personal, but not totally unexpected, problems,which all seemed to arise simultanously. My coworkers are aware of my situation and are helping me to cope and work through this.
>
> I am sure a week with Greg and his family will help me immensely. Until I can work things through, there are several very capable people on this website who can help with any problems that may arise on PB.
>
> I apologize for my acting out behavior and misreading, or reading into, several situations that I should have kept to myself. Sometimes my new status has left me more sensitive to things than should be. I will work through some of my current issues and be back better than ever, in a (hopefully) short while.
>
> Thank you all (or, for those of you in the US, y'all) for your understanding.
>
> Sincerely - Cam
Posted by Rach on January 30, 2001, at 6:18:05
In reply to Re: Posting - To Cam, posted by Deb R on January 30, 2001, at 0:22:55
I'm sure our favorite Greg shaped friend will keep me updated, but I just want you to know how much you are valued here.
Thank you for helping so many people and contributing something amazing here.
I, along with many others, eagerly await your return.
Have fun at Gregs, you lucky thing.
Rachael
P.S. Hey Deb - we should arrange an Aussie get together!
Posted by Rzip on January 30, 2001, at 9:15:10
In reply to Re: Posting - To All, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 18:03:18
Cam,
I admire you for having the insight to step back. It shows that you are aware of yourself and you have the will to actual to something active to correct whatever is imbalancing your current state of mind.
Thank you for setting an active example. As I have also came to realize, this board is not helpful to my state of mind all the time, under all varying circumstances.
Best wishes,
Rzip
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2001, at 18:42:58
In reply to Holding my Tongue, posted by Mark H. on January 29, 2001, at 18:20:36
Mark, you wrote:
> I am concerned ...that...this board is going to become a bland mush of mindless non-responses to real problems, and that the only people sure to feel welcome ...will be the few saintly types like Noa and those who imagine that support is limited to saying things like "I'm sorry you hurt" and "You go, girl!" I think that, for many of us, genuine support is much more complex and uncertain than that.
Mark, are you calling me bland, mushy and mindless?I certainly am no saint, either, tho that is beside the point--the point being that
I can't help but feel there is something a bit patronizing about the word "saintly". Especially when so closely associated in your statement with what you are suggesting is the opposite of complex, genuine support (would that be simplistic and phoney?) and with the words "bland mush" and "mindless" .
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2001, at 18:47:22
In reply to Re: Posting - To All, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2001, at 18:03:18
Hey Cam, thanks for filling us in--that was something you didn't have to do.
You really haven't been acting out so much--the misunderstanding about whether you were banned is understandable. And, yes, perhaps you got a little "direct" with name, but as is apparent from some other peoples' posts, you werent' the only one who was frustrated with his posts.
Take some time, enjoy the visit. And if you need to bite someone's head off, Greg is a good candidate anyway, no? ;^)
Posted by Greg on January 30, 2001, at 19:04:16
In reply to Re: Posting - To All, posted by Noa on January 30, 2001, at 18:47:22
> Take some time, enjoy the visit. And if you need to bite someone's head off, Greg is a good candidate anyway, no? ;^)
HEY! I resemble that that remark...
Posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 19:35:55
In reply to Re: Holding my Tongue, posted by Noa on January 30, 2001, at 18:42:58
Dear Noa,
No, that juxtaposition was not intended as a comment or reflection on you or anybody -- it was simply my trying to express many things (perhaps too many things) in a single sentence.
Noa, you are the ideal responder as far as I'm concerned. If there is anyone's style on this board I would like to emulate, it is yours. You almost always achieve a perfect balance of sensitive consideration and intellectual depth, or what (in editorial circles) is sometimes called, simply, "clarity and grace." My admiration for you is completely sincere.
"Super-skillful" probably would have been a better choice of words than "saintly," although I didn't intend "saintly" to be anything but complimenary. Mostly, I meant it as a recognition that I don't have your clarity and grace, but I hope I still have something to offer that is useful.
I too sometimes write "I'm sorry you hurt" and "You go, girl!", which have their place. My point was that I hope the support we're allowed to offer will not stop there, out of fear that someone will mistake asking for details or commenting on a possible pattern as an attack or intrusion.
I think Dr. Bob needs help from active participants in how to view and manage this rich resource. He needs to hear a plurality of opinions, from all types of posters and respondents.
For instance, I don't think it's appropriate to banish ANYONE from the Administration board for their comments -- this board was specifically created to "deal with individuals" and technical problems and suggestions for improvements. I think this board is the ideal place for "name" to have his say and for Cam to blow his top and for (someone) this afternoon who finally said what he/she felt in completely uncensored terms! It keeps it off of the "support and education" boards and helps them to function more effectively, I think. Dr. Bob may want to enforce his view of civility across all three (or four?) boards. My opinion is that the Admin board is the place to relax that requirement, for the sake of civility on the education and support boards.
My favorite active participant on this board is Shar, and although we've rarely spoken directly to each other, I sense that she and I would go to bat for each other almost instinctively. Our values and especially our senses of loyalty seem very similar. She's says what I think, and I feel that she really hears what I say. I would never contradict her on Psycho-Babble or PSB.
But here, on the Admin board, I found myself yesterday in the strange position of defending "name's" right to have his say here, even though he's stirred up a lot of the people I most respect and admire. This is, I thought, the appropriate place to talk about things like what the rules should be and how they should be enforced. In this respect, I think "name's" postings are appropriate, if disagreeable.
I apologize to you (and to anyone else) who took my vision of a bleak *potential* FUTURE for the board as a comment on the present. My concern was, and is, that if Dr. Bob continues to block people from THIS board for speaking their mind, there is no place left for them to go....
I really appreciate all you give to these boards,
Noa, and especially that you'll ask me outright if you're unsure of what I intended.Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 19:49:13
In reply to Re: Holding my Tongue, posted by stjames on January 30, 2001, at 19:20:05
> James here....
>
> a extrimist cannot post on this board "XXXX are decended from _______." without his/her right
> to post here quickly taken away.James,
I guess we'll see whether your right to post is quickly taken away or not.
I thought I was making the same point as you on the need for clear limits on the freedom of speech on these boards.
If you set up a discussion group at your commercial ISP, then you are completely free to advocate or limit discussion of almost anything (there's sure enough extremism already available on the 'net).
However, if you are an employee of the University of Chicago and operating a public service board for the public good, then you are obligated not to discriminate arbitrarily with regards to access. This board is not privately operated.
I'm with you, St. James -- I'm just asking for clear guidelines on what is and is not appropriate to post, so that posters and respondents can be better aware of their responsibilities here as well as having their rights protected. These are more ethical issues of good management to me than they are legal issues.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by ksvt on January 30, 2001, at 20:59:48
In reply to Re: Not at ALL -- Glad you Asked, posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 19:35:55
> I'm glad you clarified your remark about Noa. I, too, first read that same paragraph the way Noa did, and I was going to post a comment about it but decided to "hold my tongue" because I decided that you really didn't mean it in a negative way, and I didn't want to fuel further flames. I read Noa's posts, which are always constructive but not necessarily uncritical, and I find myself thinking either, "why didn't I think of that?" or "I wish I could express myself as well." I think she has rare insight and more importantly, the ability to express it in a clear, positive, and tactful manner. K
Posted by stjames on January 30, 2001, at 23:32:22
In reply to Re: Holding my Tongue, posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 19:49:13
> > James here....
> >
> > a extrimist cannot post on this board "XXXX are decended from _______." without his/her right
> > to post here quickly taken away.
>
> James,
>
> I guess we'll see whether your right to post is quickly taken away or not.
>
> I thought I was making the same point as you on the need for clear limits on the freedom of speech on these boards.James here.....
Let me put it another way; it has always been clear to me that "free speech" is not how it works here or on other internet places and I don't see how anyone could assume otherwise. I read the intro's, disclaimers and skimmed the board before I posted. If others did not, shame on them.
As to defining "civil", if you need a defination here then you missed a big part of primary and secondary school (i,e,..plays well with others)
If you need the define what support each other,
be nice, respect each other, ect mean then I fear
you will need to define everything to these people,indicating they may not have to social skills to function here and perhaps in life in general.
>However, if you are an employee of the >University of Chicago and operating a public >service board for the public good, then you are >obligated not to discriminate arbitrarily with >regards to access. This board is not privately >operatedDr-Bob is the list owner, it is da facto that the list owner sets the rules and common that the list owner is not the true owner. This is the way things have opperated of the last 20 + years on the internet.
James
Posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 23:41:17
In reply to Comment about Noa » Mark H., posted by ksvt on January 30, 2001, at 20:59:48
K,
I couldn't agree with you more. Noa is almost always spot-on, and I always learn from reading his (her?) posts. Noa provides a model to which I aspire.
I'm still looking for the right balance. If I edit myself too much, my responses seem stilted and strained. If I just let it flow, then sometimes there are inferences that I don't intend.
I've got much to learn. Fortunately, there are lots of extremely gifted people on this forum to help me be a more skillful poster and responder.
MH
Posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 23:44:51
In reply to Re: Holding my Tongue, posted by stjames on January 30, 2001, at 23:32:22
James,
Thanks for your clarification. I appreciate it.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Rach on January 31, 2001, at 6:45:40
In reply to Re: st. james, posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 23:44:51
> James,
>
> Thanks for your clarification. I appreciate it.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Deb R on January 31, 2001, at 8:46:12
In reply to Best wishes Cam. (PS for Deb), posted by Rach on January 30, 2001, at 6:18:05
Hey Rach
It would be great to meet you one of these days, I wonder are we the only Aussies here? Any other Aussies out there, or New Zealanders?
Have you ever been over this way Rach? I was where you are when I was 15 for a school trip, then again about 10 years ago...have lots rellies over there!
Love,
Deb.> I'm sure our favorite Greg shaped friend will keep me updated, but I just want you to know how much you are valued here.
>
> Thank you for helping so many people and contributing something amazing here.
>
> I, along with many others, eagerly await your return.
>
> Have fun at Gregs, you lucky thing.
>
> Rachael
>
> P.S. Hey Deb - we should arrange an Aussie get together!
Posted by Rach on January 31, 2001, at 10:08:46
In reply to Re: Best wishes Cam. (PS for Deb) Rach, posted by Deb R on January 31, 2001, at 8:46:12
Same - I was over where you are when I was about 15! (It was a fam holiday) Haven't been back since (no fam there, but it hasn't been that long...a whole 5 years!)
Okay, it's mentally listed as a thing to do for the future (when I'm a millionaire with 36 hours in every day)
:)
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2001, at 10:29:18
In reply to Re: Not at ALL -- Glad you Asked, posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 19:35:55
Mark, thanks for the clarification.
As for relaxing civility rules on admin, I disagree somewhat.
I think the admin helps to keep the other boards flowing better, so content doesn't get interrupted by process comments about how the board is run. That is what admin is for. However, I don't think it means that admin shouldn't be held to the civility rules.
OTOH, perhaps you are right in suggesting that Dr. Bob's enforcement of the rules might be slightly relaxed here--so that ambiguous affronts are given more warning/discussion/explanation of why they offended, etc. before someone is blocked.
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2001, at 10:33:16
In reply to Re: Comment about Noa, posted by Mark H. on January 30, 2001, at 23:41:17
It would be pretty boring here if we were all posting in the same way, tho.
OK, enough talking about me. The attention makes me uncomfortable because of having been targetted by a disruptive poster in the past, and I am wary of this happening again.
Posted by Deb R on January 31, 2001, at 20:48:12
In reply to Deb, posted by Rach on January 31, 2001, at 10:08:46
Hey Rach,
Did you hear about the people who won the $30 million a week or two ago? Wow, somehow that could almost be tooooo much! You sure could do a lot of good with that amount of money tho! Anyway, if you are ever over this way, or I am heading your way it would be great to meet you...
Bye for now,
Love,
Deb.> Same - I was over where you are when I was about 15! (It was a fam holiday) Haven't been back since (no fam there, but it hasn't been that long...a whole 5 years!)
>
> Okay, it's mentally listed as a thing to do for the future (when I'm a millionaire with 36 hours in every day)
>
> :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2001, at 21:04:24
In reply to Holding my Tongue, posted by Mark H. on January 29, 2001, at 18:20:36
> The most civil and supportive posting could be either warmly generic encouragement or a sharp suggestion that is at once honest, painful and badly needed.
Painful suggestions may sometimes be needed, but please refrain from making them here. I think in this context there's too much risk that they'll hurt instead of help. Thanks.
> Support groups, including peer support groups, need rules, guidelines, examples of forbidden behavior, and -- most importantly -- the openness and flexibility for people to try different approaches and techniques, even though doing so will inevitably lead to occasional failures and faux pas.
> If I didn't respect and admire Dr. Bob and the many wonderful people here who have made my life better, I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to write the above, so please keep that in mind. I think the size and scope of the board, the sheer quantity of responsibility, may tempt Dr. Bob to seek inappropriately simple solutions to complex issues of social interaction, a tiny fraction of which are at times problematic.
I do appreciate the time everyone is taking to hash this out. Hopefully, it'll lead to improvements in the site (or the way the site is run :-).
I think we agree except on how specific the rules should be. I've resisted trying to list all the ways it's possible to be uncivil, I'm not sure I could -- or if it would help.
My theory is that it's rarely unawareness of what "civil" means that leads to uncivil posts. I think either (1) posters lose their cool, (2) they know they're being uncivil but feel it's justified (for example, as "tough love"), or (3) their primary intention is just to provoke.
> expressions of irritation and annoyance can be entirely civil and appropriate, and they are part of the range of feedback that is normal not only in peer groups but also as part of the social experience. If all feedback ... is "supportive" in the sense recently enforced here, then there is no permitted mechanism for saying, "Hey! I think you're behavior is inappropriate!"
I agree, expressions of irritation can be civil -- but they aren't necessarily. For example, "I-statements" such as "I felt put down by what you said" tend to be more productive than "you-statements" such as the above.
Bob
PS: Sorry about not getting this posted sooner, especially because things seem to be settling down now, but I've been having (more!) computer problems...
Posted by Mark H. on February 1, 2001, at 16:06:33
In reply to Re: Holding my Tongue, posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2001, at 21:04:24
> I think we agree except on how specific the rules should be.
> Bob
Dear Dr. Bob,
Thank you for your gentle comments and support. Perhaps over time you (or a trusted clinical grad student under your supervision?) could compile a list of helpful idesas and guidance that would point us in the right direction, such as your suggestion to make "I" statements rather than "you" statements in discussing and owning feelings.
My therapist hands everyone a "green sheet" before they begin therapy, so they know what his basic values and ground rules are when they sit down with others in a group for the first time. In that way, everyone starts with some similar expectations and understanding.
I realize that each type of therapy might have its own such list, but I suspect there are many similarities across styles and types. I'm trying to think of things that would make your role here less time-consuming and stressful, not more so. ;-)
Thanks for keeping this forum available and working so well. Given the sheer quantity of interactions, it is amazing how few problems there are.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by danf on February 2, 2001, at 13:53:38
In reply to Re: Holding my Tongue, posted by Dr. Bob on January 31, 2001, at 21:04:24
I think I see a support group facilitator rather than a moderator here..
This is something new to me at babble.
I understand about babble & the need for guidance, having had episodes of irrationality myself, & needing a warning about civil conduct.
Interaction needs some thought, pending the desired direction.
I don't have any advice, just an observation about a boundary that appeared to be nudged, to me.
This is the end of the thread.
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