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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mobe on March 23, 2023, at 10:45:34
Ive just started using Dayvigo to help sleep. Has anyone else found that they still walk to half way through the night?
Posted by Jay2112 on March 29, 2023, at 17:54:51
In reply to Dayvigo, posted by mobe on March 23, 2023, at 10:45:34
I have read of Dayvigo. It blocks hypocretin (which helps keep you awake) in the brain. I haven't tried it, but have heard of the sleepwalking. Personally, I prefer benzos for sleep.
Jay
Posted by undopaminergic on April 1, 2023, at 2:39:17
In reply to Re: Dayvigo » mobe, posted by Jay2112 on March 29, 2023, at 17:54:51
> I have read of Dayvigo. It blocks hypocretin (which helps keep you awake) in the brain. I haven't tried it, but have heard of the sleepwalking. Personally, I prefer benzos for sleep.
>Benzos are effective for promoting sleep, but in my experience, it is an absolutely worthless sleep. If antihistamines work for you, I would prefer them, although they take longer than benzos to induce sleep.
-undopaminergic
Posted by SLS on April 1, 2023, at 12:25:54
In reply to Re: Dayvigo » Jay2112, posted by undopaminergic on April 1, 2023, at 2:39:17
Hi.
> > I have read of Dayvigo. It blocks hypocretin (which helps keep you awake) in the brain. I haven't tried it, but have heard of the sleepwalking. Personally, I prefer benzos for sleep.
> >
>
> Benzos are effective for promoting sleep, but in my experience, it is an absolutely worthless sleep. If antihistamines work for you, I would prefer them, although they take longer than benzos to induce sleep.
>
> -undopaminergic
What about Seroquel (quetiapine)? People really do well with it at low dosages - 25-50 mg/day. Does it affect sleep architecture?Benzodiazepines are supposed to affect negatively sleep architecture. I found tempazepam (Restoril)and lorazepam (Ativan) to be the best of the bunch for insomnia. I prefere Ambien (zolpidem). It impacts sleep architecture minimally or not at all - especially REM sleep. Ambien puts me to sleep quickly and with no hangover the next morning. It does have a short half-life. However, I don't experience rebound awakenings like I did with triazolam (Halcion), another drug with a short half-life. For this reason, I took both lorazepam and triazolam. Triazolam put me to sleep and lorazepam kept me asleep. I needed this to remedy total insomnia while I was taking a combination of Parnate + desipramine.
Another drug that might be worth looking at isto treat insomnia is trimipramine (Surmontil). In contrast to other tricyclic antidepressants, trimipramine:
1. Increases sleep efficiency.
2. Does not reduce REM sleep, and tends to enhance it.
3. Does not inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine-NE (noradrenalin-NA), serotonin (5-HT) or dopamine (DA).
4. Has mild antipsychotic effects.
5. Produces very little rebound insomnia upon discontinuation.
6. Is tolerated better than doxepin.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 1, 2023, at 17:39:06
In reply to Re: Dayvigo » undopaminergic, posted by SLS on April 1, 2023, at 12:25:54
I forgot to list one of the most attractive features of Ambien. If you discontinue Ambien abruptly, the only withdrawal effect is moderate insomnia. Since I haven't tried any other Z-drugs, so I don't know if the lack of a severe withdrawal syndrome is a property of the rest of them.
- Scott> Hi.
>
> > > I have read of Dayvigo. It blocks hypocretin (which helps keep you awake) in the brain. I haven't tried it, but have heard of the sleepwalking. Personally, I prefer benzos for sleep.
> > >
> >
> > Benzos are effective for promoting sleep, but in my experience, it is an absolutely worthless sleep. If antihistamines work for you, I would prefer them, although they take longer than benzos to induce sleep.
> >
> > -undopaminergic
>
>
> What about Seroquel (quetiapine)? People really do well with it at low dosages - 25-50 mg/day. Does it affect sleep architecture?
>
> Benzodiazepines are supposed to affect negatively sleep architecture. I found tempazepam (Restoril)and lorazepam (Ativan) to be the best of the bunch for insomnia. I prefere Ambien (zolpidem). It impacts sleep architecture minimally or not at all - especially REM sleep. Ambien puts me to sleep quickly and with no hangover the next morning. It does have a short half-life. However, I don't experience rebound awakenings like I did with triazolam (Halcion), another drug with a short half-life. For this reason, I took both lorazepam and triazolam. Triazolam put me to sleep and lorazepam kept me asleep. I needed this to remedy total insomnia while I was taking a combination of Parnate + desipramine.
>
> Another drug that might be worth looking at isto treat insomnia is trimipramine (Surmontil). In contrast to other tricyclic antidepressants, trimipramine:
>
> 1. Increases sleep efficiency.
>
> 2. Does not reduce REM sleep, and tends to enhance it.
>
> 3. Does not inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine-NE (noradrenalin-NA), serotonin (5-HT) or dopamine (DA).
>
> 4. Has mild antipsychotic effects.
>
> 5. Produces very little rebound insomnia upon discontinuation.
>
> 6. Is tolerated better than doxepin.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by undopaminergic on April 2, 2023, at 8:17:05
In reply to Re: Dayvigo » undopaminergic, posted by SLS on April 1, 2023, at 12:25:54
> Hi.
>
> > > I have read of Dayvigo. It blocks hypocretin (which helps keep you awake) in the brain. I haven't tried it, but have heard of the sleepwalking. Personally, I prefer benzos for sleep.
> > >
> >
> > Benzos are effective for promoting sleep, but in my experience, it is an absolutely worthless sleep. If antihistamines work for you, I would prefer them, although they take longer than benzos to induce sleep.
> >
> > -undopaminergic
>
>
> What about Seroquel (quetiapine)? People really do well with it at low dosages - 25-50 mg/day. Does it affect sleep architecture?
>I don't know, but it's an antihistamine (H1 receptor) and a serotonin 5-HT2A antagonist. The latter does not appear to contribute to sedation, but may improve sleep quality. Cyproheptadine (Periactin) is another one that affects the same receptors.
> Benzodiazepines are supposed to affect negatively sleep architecture. I found tempazepam (Restoril)and lorazepam (Ativan) to be the best of the bunch for insomnia. I prefere Ambien (zolpidem). It impacts sleep architecture minimally or not at all - especially REM sleep. Ambien puts me to sleep quickly and with no hangover the next morning.
>It used to work the same for me many years ago, but later it had little or no effect (the same is true for temazepam).
> It does have a short half-life. However, I don't experience rebound awakenings like I did with triazolam (Halcion), another drug with a short half-life. For this reason, I took both lorazepam and triazolam. Triazolam put me to sleep and lorazepam kept me asleep. I needed this to remedy total insomnia while I was taking a combination of Parnate + desipramine.
>
> Another drug that might be worth looking at isto treat insomnia is trimipramine (Surmontil). In contrast to other tricyclic antidepressants, trimipramine:
>
> 1. Increases sleep efficiency.
>
> 2. Does not reduce REM sleep, and tends to enhance it.
>
> 3. Does not inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine-NE (noradrenalin-NA), serotonin (5-HT) or dopamine (DA).
>
> 4. Has mild antipsychotic effects.
>"Substantial" according to a German study comparing it to perazine.
> 5. Produces very little rebound insomnia upon discontinuation.
>
> 6. Is tolerated better than doxepin.
>It also reduces cortisol secretion.
-undopaminergic
Posted by SLS on April 4, 2023, at 19:58:20
In reply to Re: Dayvigo » SLS, posted by undopaminergic on April 2, 2023, at 8:17:05
Hi, UD.
> > Another drug that might be worth looking at isto treat insomnia is trimipramine (Surmontil). In contrast to other tricyclic antidepressants, trimipramine:
> >
> > 1. Increases sleep efficiency.
> >
> > 2. Does not reduce REM sleep, and tends to enhance it.
> >
> > 3. Does not inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine-NE (noradrenalin-NA), serotonin (5-HT) or dopamine (DA).
> >
> > 4. Has mild antipsychotic effects.
> "Substantial" according to a German study comparing it to perazine.
>
> > 5. Produces very little rebound insomnia upon discontinuation.
> >
> > 6. Is tolerated better than doxepin.
> >
>
> It also reduces cortisol secretion.I envy your memory. It's almost as good as Linkadge's.
To be accurate, some studies detected a slight bit of reuptake inhibition. Who knows?
Trimipramine inhibits cortisol secretion? That's excellent. The "stress" hormone? In short bursts, cortisol reduces inflammation. However, chronic hypercortisolism produces the opposite effect. Brain inflammation is the result.
- Scott
Posted by undopaminergic on April 8, 2023, at 8:22:19
In reply to Re: Dayvigo, posted by SLS on April 4, 2023, at 19:58:20
> Hi, UD.
Hi SLS!
> > > Another drug that might be worth looking at isto treat insomnia is trimipramine (Surmontil). In contrast to other tricyclic antidepressants, trimipramine:
> > >
> > > 1. Increases sleep efficiency.
> > >
> > > 2. Does not reduce REM sleep, and tends to enhance it.
> > >
> > > 3. Does not inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine-NE (noradrenalin-NA), serotonin (5-HT) or dopamine (DA).
> > >
> > > 4. Has mild antipsychotic effects.
>
>
> > "Substantial" according to a German study comparing it to perazine.
> >
> > > 5. Produces very little rebound insomnia upon discontinuation.
> > >
> > > 6. Is tolerated better than doxepin.
> > >
> >
> > It also reduces cortisol secretion.
>
>
>
> I envy your memory. It's almost as good as Linkadge's.
>Despite that, my memory is not what it was before I got burnt out and depressed.
> To be accurate, some studies detected a slight bit of reuptake inhibition. Who knows?
>Linkadge cited a study suggesting that, in vivo, venlafaxine is a much stronger noradrenaline (norepinephrine) reuptake inhibitor than in vitro data would suggest. So, I suppose that theoretically, something similar might be true of trimipramine.
> Trimipramine inhibits cortisol secretion? That's excellent. The "stress" hormone? In short bursts, cortisol reduces inflammation. However, chronic hypercortisolism produces the opposite effect. Brain inflammation is the result.
>Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It's worth mentioning however, that taking trimipramine at night might serve to normalise a disturbed cortisol concentration circadian curve. It should be lower during night and increase in the morning.
I forgot to mention one fact about trimipramine that I consider important. It is a centrally active histamine H2-receptor antagonist. This is a rare property, shared by clozapine. As far as I'm aware, H2-antagonists used for heartburn and other gastrointestinal conditions cross the blood brain barrier only partially, if at all, and before they were introduced trimipramine was sometimes used in their place.
-undopaminergic
This is the end of the thread.
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