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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by undopaminergic on January 15, 2023, at 10:58:13
Hi all,
I just finished reading this extensive review on lithium orotate, with a focus especially on a comparison with lithium carbonate, although all lithium salts with a history of use are considered in brief. The role of orotic acid as a mineral carrier in general is also considered in depth.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34196467/
"Lithium orotate: A superior option for lithium therapy?"The link leads to the abstract, and offers further links to the freely available full text article.
All in all, I'd say this is as good as it gets without further original research.
-undopaminergic
Posted by SLS on January 15, 2023, at 11:51:38
In reply to Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 15, 2023, at 10:58:13
> Hi all,
>
> I just finished reading this extensive review on lithium orotate, with a focus especially on a comparison with lithium carbonate, although all lithium salts with a history of use are considered in brief. The role of orotic acid as a mineral carrier in general is also considered in depth.
>
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34196467/
> "Lithium orotate: A superior option for lithium therapy?"
>
> The link leads to the abstract, and offers further links to the freely available full text article.
>
> All in all, I'd say this is as good as it gets without further original research.
>
> -undopaminergic
I don't like what these authors did. They provide no clinically relevant information. Everything they write about is theoretical.In the abstract that you provided the linked to, there is nothing referring to measured clinical activity.
--------------------------------------
"proposed"?
"LiOr is proposed to cross the blood-brain barrier and enter cells more readily than Li2 CO3 "
--------------------------------------
No clinical applicability:
"While no clinical trials for the use of LiOr in BD have been conducted..."
--------------------------------------
Closing remarks:
"There is one certainty regarding the future of LiOr in psychiatric applications: more research is needed."
--------------------------------------
No dice.
I remember a hoard of Psycho-Babblers rushing out to buy lithium orotate some 15 or more years ago. Lots of takers. No benefits.
I'm sure by now, you have seen me tout the utility of using low-dosage lithium therapy to treat depression. At the dosages necessary for this treatment to work, there is very little risk of kidney and thyroid damage. The effects of lithium on these two organs are dosage-dependent. I have been taking lithium at a dosaage of 300 mg/day for about 10 years. My kidney enzymes and thyroid levels remain normal as of 6 months ago.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 9:46:10
In reply to Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 15, 2023, at 10:58:13
I never noticed a difference to low dose Lithium Carbonate. Insurance covers it. Others may notice a difference, I dont know.
I recall that you shouldnt take larger doses of Orotate. It has to do with the Orotate.
Posted by SLS on January 16, 2023, at 11:06:23
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 9:46:10
> I never noticed a difference to low dose Lithium Carbonate. Insurance covers it. Others may notice a difference, I dont know.
My concern is that people will try high-dosage lithium for depression, and have no positive result, whereas they might respond to low dosages were they have tried it. For depression, I have found that the therapeutic window for low-dosage lithium treatment is extremely narrow.
For me:
150 mg/day = No response
300 mg/day = Remission.
450 mg/day = Relapse
> I recall that you shouldnt take larger doses of Orotate. It has to do with the Orotate.Good info. I never thought to look into that.
Sorry about my manic "F*ck you". It was a very angry time for me.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 14:40:06
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate. » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on January 16, 2023, at 11:06:23
> > I never noticed a difference to low dose Lithium Carbonate. Insurance covers it. Others may notice a difference, I dont know.
>
> My concern is that people will try high-dosage lithium for depression, and have no positive result, whereas they might respond to low dosages were they have tried it. For depression, I have found that the therapeutic window for low-dosage lithium treatment is extremely narrow.
>
> For me:
>
> 150 mg/day = No response
> 300 mg/day = Remission.
> 450 mg/day = Relapse
>
>
> > I recall that you shouldnt take larger doses of Orotate. It has to do with the Orotate.
>
> Good info. I never thought to look into that.
>
> Sorry about my manic "F*ck you". It was a very angry time for me.
>
>
> - ScottAccepted. I could tell something was up.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 14:49:38
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 14:40:06
I think that Lithium at 225 is the med that I take with the least repugnancy.
Proven to reduce (self)harm tendencies and no side effects at that dose. It seems to work for me.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 15:07:25
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 14:49:38
No side effects (that I can tell) for ME. Just being precise. I do not know about others and maybe it has a side effect that I am not aware of.
Posted by undopaminergic on January 17, 2023, at 9:26:28
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 16, 2023, at 15:07:25
> No side effects (that I can tell) for ME. Just being precise. I do not know about others and maybe it has a side effect that I am not aware of.
>
>The first time I tried lithium, in the form of orotate salt powder, I liked the effect. Too bad I didn't measure how much I took. When I tried it again I didn't notice anything.
I wouldn't be opposed to trying <=450 mg of the carbonate. Maybe if vortioxetine doesn't work out, I'll suggest it for augmentation.
-undopaminergic
Posted by SLS on January 17, 2023, at 19:37:56
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 17, 2023, at 9:26:28
> > No side effects (that I can tell) for ME. Just being precise. I do not know about others and maybe it has a side effect that I am not aware of.
> >
> >
>
> The first time I tried lithium, in the form of orotate salt powder, I liked the effect. Too bad I didn't measure how much I took. When I tried it again I didn't notice anything.
>
> I wouldn't be opposed to trying <=450 mg of the carbonate. Maybe if vortioxetine doesn't work out, I'll suggest it for augmentation.
>
> -undopaminergic
>
Now, THAT demonstrates a well-reasoned clinical approach.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 20, 2023, at 2:31:26
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 17, 2023, at 9:26:28
> > No side effects (that I can tell) for ME. Just being precise. I do not know about others and maybe it has a side effect that I am not aware of.
> >
> >
>
> The first time I tried lithium, in the form of orotate salt powder, I liked the effect. Too bad I didn't measure how much I took. When I tried it again I didn't notice anything.
>
> I wouldn't be opposed to trying <=450 mg of the carbonate. Maybe if vortioxetine doesn't work out, I'll suggest it for augmentation.
>
> -undopaminergicI think its good that we all have doctors. Sometimes our pharmaceutical ideas sound great to us, but are contraindicated for some reason that we don't know of.
Posted by undopaminergic on January 20, 2023, at 4:33:33
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 20, 2023, at 2:31:26
> > > No side effects (that I can tell) for ME. Just being precise. I do not know about others and maybe it has a side effect that I am not aware of.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The first time I tried lithium, in the form of orotate salt powder, I liked the effect. Too bad I didn't measure how much I took. When I tried it again I didn't notice anything.
> >
> > I wouldn't be opposed to trying <=450 mg of the carbonate. Maybe if vortioxetine doesn't work out, I'll suggest it for augmentation.
> >
> > -undopaminergic
>
> I think its good that we all have doctors. Sometimes our pharmaceutical ideas sound great to us, but are contraindicated for some reason that we don't know of.
>I'd say that usually, if you read the prescriber's information sheet, you know more than your doctor about the drug. The exception is when a doctor has extensive clinical experience with the drug.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 20, 2023, at 12:33:02
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 20, 2023, at 4:33:33
> > > > No side effects (that I can tell) for ME. Just being precise. I do not know about others and maybe it has a side effect that I am not aware of.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > The first time I tried lithium, in the form of orotate salt powder, I liked the effect. Too bad I didn't measure how much I took. When I tried it again I didn't notice anything.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't be opposed to trying <=450 mg of the carbonate. Maybe if vortioxetine doesn't work out, I'll suggest it for augmentation.
> > >
> > > -undopaminergic
> >
> > I think its good that we all have doctors. Sometimes our pharmaceutical ideas sound great to us, but are contraindicated for some reason that we don't know of.
> >
>
> I'd say that usually, if you read the prescriber's information sheet, you know more than your doctor about the drug. The exception is when a doctor has extensive clinical experience with the drug.
>
> -undopaminergicYou are not supposed to go to a bad doctor. I am very careful to not override my doctor. He has handled people who take my medications for 35 years.
Posted by SLS on January 21, 2023, at 9:11:42
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 20, 2023, at 2:31:26
> > > No side effects (that I can tell) for ME. Just being precise. I do not know about others and maybe it has a side effect that I am not aware of.
> > The first time I tried lithium, in the form of orotate salt powder, I liked the effect. Too bad I didn't measure how much I took. When I tried it again I didn't notice anything.
Lithium displays a "lithium-discontinuation lithium refractoriness" behavior for many people. One can remain in remission for years being treated with lithium monotherapy. However, when it is discontinued, and symptoms reappear - often within a matter of weeks or months - restarting lithium no longer works - ever. See the work of Robert M. Post, MD on PubMed on this issue.
> > I wouldn't be opposed to trying <=450 mg of the carbonate. Maybe if vortioxetine doesn't work out, I'll suggest it for augmentation.
If adding lithium to vortioxetine doesn't help, consider taking it taking it at 300 mg/day, especially if there is any kind of transient improvement beginning within the first 48 hours. When I first added lithium to a regime that included Parnate. This was the go-to strategy at Columbia Presbyterian if Parnate monotherapy failed. I felt a brief improvement within the first 12 hours of the first dose.
> I think its good that we all have doctors. Sometimes our pharmaceutical ideas sound great to us, but are contraindicated for some reason that we don't know of.
Absolutely!
Besides, clinical psychiatrists see a much larger population of real patients than anyone on Psycho-Babble can claim to. Plus, they keep up with the most current news and confer with colleagues to find out their treatment experiences.
The good ones.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 22, 2023, at 10:50:34
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate. » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on January 21, 2023, at 9:11:42
Yeah, what I am saying is the website is not a replacement for a psychiatrist. It can merely augment.
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2023, at 12:44:38
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 22, 2023, at 10:50:34
> Yeah, what I am saying is the website is not a replacement for a psychiatrist. It can merely augment.
I totally agree. I think harvesting facts from the Internet can help, just as long as you make your clinical psychiatrist the decision-maker. If your doctor won't even entertain listening you, it's time to change doctors.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2023, at 19:40:17
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 20, 2023, at 4:33:33
> I'd say that usually, if you read the prescriber's information sheet, you know more than your doctor about the drug.
This might be true.
The doctor who I saw in order to try intranasal ketamine kept referring to her cell phone to review the properties, side effects, drug-drug interactions, and dosing of drugs. At first, I questioned her expertise because she hadn't committed all of this information to memory. Maybe she had, but just in case...
> The exception is when a doctor has extensive clinical experience with the drug.Real-life clinical experience is critical to a doctor's success rate. Perhaps more valuable than reading about every clinical trial published is to talk shop with other doctors, and thereby expand their clinical knowledge base.
- Scott
Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 22, 2023, at 23:08:44
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by SLS on January 15, 2023, at 11:51:38
i'm back, lithium orotate from my experience was different from carbonate, it was .... more direct on mood, you could feel a antidepressant feeling. Carbonate has that but seems o have more mood stabilization. There different because i read orotate, is more easily entered in the brain, than carbonate. Orotate chemical is lighter in mass or density than carbonate, or something that makes it easier to enter the brain. But carbonate is superior in manic depressive cases, oratate i always just thought of a over the counter antidepressant you could by at the health food store.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 22, 2023, at 23:13:23
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by rjlockhart37 on January 22, 2023, at 23:08:44
carbonate is more potent than orotate with me, they have different effects, it's interesting. but many people benefit from lithium orotate, it's easier entered the brain because the chemicals is lighter in mass, than carbonate. But mood disorders when getting treated, mainly carbonate is the best.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 22, 2023, at 23:42:50
In reply to Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 15, 2023, at 10:58:13
wait...everythng i just wrote, was in that article, lol omg...what an idiot, i knew that from reading it on oher wesbites, but i didnt click on link. Lithium oratate....it seems more antidepressant feeling, carbonate - it's hard to describe but they have different effects. I started taking lithium oratete at 15mg and noticed an antidepressant feeling, my depression was lifted. I started buying more, and then eventually just stopped. I had a manic, episode came out of no where, and was put on carbonate. I take 900, i've taken 1200mg, but sometimes lithium doesn't even calm down mania. I've been going through hell stages, staying up for days, rough. But sometimes dysphoria mania, rather go back down to mild depression or baseline rather than full blown dypshoric mania. Anyways, my doctor has scehdelued the blood test, to be sent. I'm new to lithium, i've only been on it for 7 months.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 23, 2023, at 3:08:39
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate. » Lamdage22, posted by SLS on January 22, 2023, at 12:44:38
> > Yeah, what I am saying is the website is not a replacement for a psychiatrist. It can merely augment.
>
> I totally agree. I think harvesting facts from the Internet can help, just as long as you make your clinical psychiatrist the decision-maker. If your doctor won't even entertain listening you, it's time to change doctors.
>
>
> - ScottI like that we are on the same page here :) Im not outright against meds either. When they are necessary, they are necessary. I take a fair share of them.
Posted by undopaminergic on January 23, 2023, at 10:48:42
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 23, 2023, at 3:08:39
>
> I like that we are on the same page here :) Im not outright against meds either. When they are necessary, they are necessary. I take a fair share of them.
>Your Zyprexa dose seems to have come down a bit?
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 23, 2023, at 11:43:49
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by undopaminergic on January 23, 2023, at 10:48:42
> >
> > I like that we are on the same page here :) Im not outright against meds either. When they are necessary, they are necessary. I take a fair share of them.
> >
>
> Your Zyprexa dose seems to have come down a bit?
>
> -undopaminergicSlightly. I actually sleep much better opting for warm white light instead of bright white. (Avoiding bright white in the evening) So I may be able to cut down a bit more.
Posted by SLS on January 23, 2023, at 13:08:38
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 23, 2023, at 11:43:49
> > >
> > > I like that we are on the same page here :) Im not outright against meds either. When they are necessary, they are necessary. I take a fair share of them.
> > >
> >
> > Your Zyprexa dose seems to have come down a bit?
> >
> > -undopaminergic
>
> Slightly. I actually sleep much better opting for warm white light instead of bright white. (Avoiding bright white in the evening) So I may be able to cut down a bit more.
>
>Hi, Lamdage.
What time in the evening do you begin to avoid white or blue light?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 23, 2023, at 14:16:26
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by SLS on January 23, 2023, at 13:08:38
> > > >
> > > > I like that we are on the same page here :) Im not outright against meds either. When they are necessary, they are necessary. I take a fair share of them.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Your Zyprexa dose seems to have come down a bit?
> > >
> > > -undopaminergic
> >
> > Slightly. I actually sleep much better opting for warm white light instead of bright white. (Avoiding bright white in the evening) So I may be able to cut down a bit more.
> >
> >
>
> Hi, Lamdage.
>
> What time in the evening do you begin to avoid white or blue light?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott6:30 ish. Note that screens are emitting bright white/blue.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 23, 2023, at 14:23:34
In reply to Re: Extensive review on Lithium Orotate., posted by Lamdage22 on January 23, 2023, at 14:16:26
I am glad I found out. Because you really cant take much more Neuroleptics than I was for sleep without feeling poisoned. My new general practitioner figured it out.
This is the end of the thread.
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