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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2021, at 13:35:37
Why take a 12 step alcohol program when you can take an 11 step program? My program is 1 step shorter. Would anybody like to invest? It's going to be the next big thing.
Linkadge
Posted by Jay2112 on August 30, 2021, at 16:12:48
In reply to I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2021, at 13:35:37
> Why take a 12 step alcohol program when you can take an 11 step program? My program is 1 step shorter. Would anybody like to invest? It's going to be the next big thing.
>
> Linkadge
>
>Hmmm...well, the 12 Step programs are usually quite ineffective:
ad nauseam...
So, you may be onto something. I've studied and lead many formal support groups in social work. (CBT, Adlerian, Humanistic, Dialectical, Integrative..etc.) I'd be interested in your product. :)
Jay
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2021, at 16:36:37
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » linkadge, posted by Jay2112 on August 30, 2021, at 16:12:48
Thanks for believing in me. However, it was a joke, along the line of 7 minute abs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnso4nfdM9w
:)
Linkadge
Posted by Jay2112 on August 30, 2021, at 18:47:56
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2021, at 16:36:37
> Thanks for believing in me. However, it was a joke, along the line of 7 minute abs:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnso4nfdM9w
>
> :)
>
> LinkadgeLol...yeah, I kinda thought so. Just like the thigh-master Vibrato, say, as an add-on. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QenNZ0WPxk
Jay
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2021, at 23:01:46
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » linkadge, posted by Jay2112 on August 30, 2021, at 18:47:56
How about the 1-step program.
Avoid AA and seek help anywhere else. Not unless you are willing to become a Christian zealot and surrender your individuality by serving a higher power. Conformity is the first rule there. The second rule is that you will relapse if you don't go to a meeting every day and listen to the sage wisdom of your mentor sponsor.
Actually, I someone I know is floundering in AA. What are the best alternatives?
- Scott
Posted by Jay2112 on August 30, 2021, at 23:16:39
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by SLS on August 30, 2021, at 23:01:46
> How about the 1-step program.
>
> Avoid AA and seek help anywhere else. Not unless you are willing to become a Christian zealot and surrender your individuality by serving a higher power. Conformity is the first rule there. The second rule is that you will relapse if you don't go to a meeting every day and listen to the sage wisdom of your mentor sponsor.Yep...perfect description!!!
>
> Actually, I someone I know is floundering in AA. What are the best alternatives?
>Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, possibly mixed with some classic pyschotherapy. But, CBT IS the most evidence based therapy out there. It is *the* silver bullet. In some ways, AA is like Scientology. A sorta cult, with make-believe and superstition. Ughhhh.. Get that person outta there!!...if you can..
Jay
> - Scott
Posted by undopaminergic on August 31, 2021, at 1:50:35
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » SLS, posted by Jay2112 on August 30, 2021, at 23:16:39
Incidentally, I know more people it worked for than not.
I believe everyone benefits from getting in touch with their Higher Power. While you don't really need to be in AA for that, it can help, perhaps because of support from peers who are seeking the same thing.
The term Higher Power is used because this power need not be the Christian God, but it could be the Universe or even your Higher Self. I think it helps to have faith in something bigger or higher than your Ego.
The closest I got to AA was reading the Nicotine Anonymous book. I found it inspiring. My understanding is that the x Anonymous communities are for those for whom other ways have failed. The book said that you may have to hit "rock-bottom" before you can recover -- when you are desperate, and you are out of ideas, then maybe xA is your last resort.
I don't know if I got this phrase from the NicA book, but I've found it very useful: when you're craving, tell yourself that "This too will pass".
-undopaminergic
Posted by SLS on August 31, 2021, at 7:31:46
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by undopaminergic on August 31, 2021, at 1:50:35
> Incidentally, I know more people it worked for than not.
But at what cost? You spend 1/3 your waking hours in AA meetings. You are indoctrinated to believe that you can never attain and maintain sobriety unless you invest (waste) half of your life in AA rituals. AA results in and works by segregating people from mainstream society. They think of themselves as "alcoholics". That's a noun. It's the difference between "I have leprosy" and "I'm a leper". But that's what they are - an alcoholic. That is so much nastier than saying that someone has a substance use disorder - in their own minds. It felt cultish to me to be in room of AA members as they go through their rote rituals.
I have sat in on some group therapy sessions designed for MICA patients. I interacted with quite a few people there. Now, many of them devote 1/6 of their waking hours to evangelizing. My guess is that AA keeps the preacher's pants wet. It isn't that hard for a large group of zealots in your emotional support circle to persuade impaired and dependent people what the "true" higher power is.
Perhaps this isn't as universal in AA as I think it is.
There are far too many people for whom the AA paradigm won't work to improve their global satisfaction with life. I can't see it working for intellectual, well-educated people. I can't see it working for people who are by nature free-spirited. I can't see it working for people who are visionary. From what I saw, AA can be like a minimum-security prison. It isn't often that I saw people thrive and grow with such willing conformity.
I know for sure that AA is exactly what many people need. I'm just describing my impressions after being exposed to, and being friends with, members of the AA community. My higher power would have me running in the opposite direction after stepping through the door. There are too many people who think AA is the only source of help. That ignorance can result in what I consider to be a sad outcome for the reasons I described.
As is often said, we are all different - biologically, temperamentally, and spiritually.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2021, at 11:56:14
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » linkadge, posted by Jay2112 on August 30, 2021, at 18:47:56
Funny, on that video the comments are turned off. I'm sure lots would be said on that added vibrating feature.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2021, at 12:03:52
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by undopaminergic on August 31, 2021, at 1:50:35
I do believe that faith (for some people) can be an inspiration for change and self improvement. Obviously 12 step programs are not for everybody, and a lot of bad things have happened under the guise of organized religion.
That being said, I find the whole point of life somewhat meaningless without some faith in a higher power (or at least belief in the possibility of it).
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2021, at 12:05:57
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » undopaminergic, posted by SLS on August 31, 2021, at 7:31:46
>But at what cost? You spend 1/3 your waking hours >in AA meetings. You are indoctrinated to believe >that you can never attain and maintain sobriety >unless you invest (waste) half of your life in AA >rituals.
Not all programs work for everybody. For some people, the 'rituals' provide a sense of structure and community.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on August 31, 2021, at 12:39:50
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » undopaminergic, posted by SLS on August 31, 2021, at 7:31:46
> > Incidentally, I know more people it worked for than not.
>
> But at what cost? You spend 1/3 your waking hours in AA meetings. You are indoctrinated to believe ...
>Wow, you make AA sound like Jehova's Witnesses!
It isn't supposed to be like what you describe. But I'm basing this on the NicA book, and maybe AA is worse. And it is a book, so may not accurately reflect the real world.
> It felt cultish to me to be in room of AA members as they go through their rote rituals.
>OK, I believe you. It's just that there are no official rituals that I'm aware of. It is up to the members of a group what habits to subscribe to. Moreover, you can start your own group.
> Now, many of them devote 1/6 of their waking hours to evangelizing.
I would say these are the members who are sold on it. It's like when a drug works really great for you, you want to sing its praises to everyone who'll listen.
>
> Perhaps this isn't as universal in AA as I think it is.
>I sure hope so, but I'm also sure you have a point.
>
> I know for sure that AA is exactly what many people need.I guess that is my point. Many people can't do it on their own, and they need psychosocial support.
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on August 31, 2021, at 12:54:50
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2021, at 12:03:52
> I do believe that faith (for some people) can be an inspiration for change and self improvement. Obviously 12 step programs are not for everybody, and a lot of bad things have happened under the guise of organized religion.
>
> That being said, I find the whole point of life somewhat meaningless without some faith in a higher power (or at least belief in the possibility of it).
>
> Linkadge
>I know for sure there is more to reality than traditional science would have you believe, although quantum mechanics seems to be hinting at more and more things beyond the traditional.
I was, for some hours, in a parallel reality with different laws of physics. Even if I hallucinated it all, as you can apparently do on high doses of drugs like atropine and scopolamine, it is remarkable if only for demonstrating the power of the mind (some would insist on "brain").
I've read that on morphine, you can have dreams so real you can read a book in them! I've noticed that in my ordinary dreams, when I start trying to read, the message starts "morphing" (not a pun on morphine!) into different, increasingly vague, things and soon enough you wake up.
-undopaminergic
Posted by SLS on August 31, 2021, at 14:24:55
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » SLS, posted by undopaminergic on August 31, 2021, at 12:39:50
Hi U-D.
Our differing conceptions of AA is interesting. I was close to a few AA members and acquainted with quite a few others. Although I never attended a meeting, they were described to me along with the role of their sponsors in their lives. I attended some MICA groups composed mainly of AA members. They seem very dependent on AA for almost all aspects of their lives. It's sort of like psychoanalysis. Expect to be on the couch once a week for the rest of your life.
> > I know for sure that AA is exactly what many people need.
> I guess that is my point. Many people can't do it on their own, and they need psychosocial support.
I'll go one step further. Some people need a strict and consistent structure wherein they allow others to determine their day-to-day lives. They follow a prescription that directs their behavior with little deviation or input. Indeed, the AA 12 steps model follows a printed rule-book to be followed explicitly. This is what I was exposed to. I don't know what any other group of AA members looks like.
If a member of my family needed help to combat their addiction to alcohol, I would discourage them from going to AA. I would contact the University of Pennsylvania for recommendations.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 31, 2021, at 14:26:25
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2021, at 12:03:52
> I do believe that faith (for some people) can be an inspiration for change and self improvement. Obviously 12 step programs are not for everybody, and a lot of bad things have happened under the guise of organized religion.
>
> That being said, I find the whole point of life somewhat meaningless without some faith in a higher power (or at least belief in the possibility of it).Ditto.
- Scott
Posted by undopaminergic on September 1, 2021, at 12:06:33
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » undopaminergic, posted by SLS on August 31, 2021, at 14:24:55
> Hi U-D.
>Hi SLS!
> Our differing conceptions of AA is interesting. I was close to a few AA members and acquainted with quite a few others. Although I never attended a meeting, they were described to me along with the role of their sponsors in their lives. I attended some MICA groups composed mainly of AA members. They seem very dependent on AA for almost all aspects of their lives.
>Yes, some people really get into it. They can also volunteer for different things like leading meetings or becoming a sponsor.
> It's sort of like psychoanalysis. Expect to be on the couch once a week for the rest of your life.
>I'm a great fan of psychoanalysis, but I'm also in favour of doing it as efficiently as possible.
> Indeed, the AA 12 steps model follows a printed rule-book to be followed explicitly.
>That much is true.
> This is what I was exposed to. I don't know what any other group of AA members looks like.
>Well, I admit I know even less!
> If a member of my family needed help to combat their addiction to alcohol, I would discourage them from going to AA.
>It is my impression that AA is the last resort. You'd typically begin by trying to quit on your own.
> I would contact the University of Pennsylvania for recommendations.
>Why?
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 1, 2021, at 12:36:31
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » SLS, posted by undopaminergic on September 1, 2021, at 12:06:33
> > It's sort of like psychoanalysis. Expect to be on the couch once a week for the rest of your life.
How is Psychoanalysis? Have you tried? Psychoanalysis rarely is once a week. more like 2-3 times a week. I am rather "on the couch" that often than visiting the loony bin twice a year. Actually, I enjoy going to therapy.
> I'm a great fan of psychoanalysis, but I'm also in favour of doing it as efficiently as possible.
Me too.
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 1, 2021, at 12:42:16
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by Lamdage22 on September 1, 2021, at 12:36:31
One analytic therapist is like trying one med and then concluding that meds don't work.
Posted by undopaminergic on September 1, 2021, at 13:40:40
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by Lamdage22 on September 1, 2021, at 12:36:31
> > > It's sort of like psychoanalysis. Expect to be on the couch once a week for the rest of your life.
>
> How is Psychoanalysis? Have you tried?Not in a traditional sense. I have, however, used the technique of free association, on my own and briefly with an expert. She highlighted some contradictions that I myself was blind to -- I think this is why you sometimes need another person to do it. It involved something about having a problem sexually with women. She disappeared on me not long after.
On my own, writing an essay about truth, I accidentally hit some unconscious schizoid and narcissistic delusions, and I felt the relief of my lifetime.
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on September 1, 2021, at 13:49:41
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by Lamdage22 on September 1, 2021, at 12:42:16
> One analytic therapist is like trying one med and then concluding that meds don't work.
>Right. It takes skill, and not every analyst has what it takes. There are things that are a matter of talent, and that you cannot learn at a psychoanalytic institute without it, even if you may still get your diploma.
-undopaminergic
Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 1, 2021, at 18:45:50
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by SLS on August 30, 2021, at 23:01:46
I was in a 12 step Narcotics Anyamous (NA) for 2 years. There was various sites, and meetings and lots of people. We would go to a place have about 20 people there, they would share there stories, tell everyone whats going on, and how their recovery was helping them. So, it was more like a accountability program, you call members when you feel like using drugs, or you go to a meeting. They had vacations, and you would go to movies with members. It was actually not that, because if you needed something even not drugs, one of the NA members would come get you. Like if your strangded or had a incident happen. But i do know some people who in the program, and they brought drugs, or they went and did drugs after the meeting. It was very few people, but i rerember them. They would act like their clean, but they would leave the meetings for like 6 months and gets strung out, then thery came back.
There good accountability programs, where call members and go out to eat, go to their house, movies, NA sponsered events. Anways just wanted to write that. AA yes i heard is not so good, but NA is more accountability with other members to help you, and you have a NA book manual that your stuppost to read daily and apply it to your life
Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 1, 2021, at 18:53:53
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 1, 2021, at 18:45:50
alot of the court system - if your on probation, from using controlled substance, they would assign you to go to NA meetings. That's where i knew the people who...they acted like they were clean but they came to the meeting with pinpointed pupils and share their story while they were high. But..that was very very few people, mainly they were sent by courts or law enforcement after doing drugs, rehab etc
Posted by Jay2112 on September 1, 2021, at 21:36:03
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by undopaminergic on August 31, 2021, at 1:50:35
> Incidentally, I know more people it worked for than not.
>
> I believe everyone benefits from getting in touch with their Higher Power. While you don't really need to be in AA for that, it can help, perhaps because of support from peers who are seeking the same thing.
>
> The term Higher Power is used because this power need not be the Christian God, but it could be the Universe or even your Higher Self. I think it helps to have faith in something bigger or higher than your Ego.
>
> The closest I got to AA was reading the Nicotine Anonymous book. I found it inspiring. My understanding is that the x Anonymous communities are for those for whom other ways have failed. The book said that you may have to hit "rock-bottom" before you can recover -- when you are desperate, and you are out of ideas, then maybe xA is your last resort.
>
> I don't know if I got this phrase from the NicA book, but I've found it very useful: when you're craving, tell yourself that "This too will pass".
>
> -undopaminergic
>Hey UD:
My favourite saying..."Whatever gets you through the night". I would never, ever tell somebody that
whatever belief or treatment works for them (unless it caused self harm, or harm of others) was/is "wrong". Yes, we were joshing around a bit, and maybe xA is something I may not quite recommend, or utilize myself. But, man, if it works for you, I absolutely wish you all the power in the world.
You may also feel similar about all of my crazy pharmaceutical 'adventures'..lol.So, honestly, no disrespect meant. :)
Jay
Posted by undopaminergic on September 2, 2021, at 8:13:23
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program » undopaminergic, posted by Jay2112 on September 1, 2021, at 21:36:03
> Hey UD:
>Hey Jay!
> You may also feel similar about all of my crazy pharmaceutical 'adventures'..lol.
>I wish everyone would find a regimen that works! I'm a pharmaceutical adventurer myself. For example, I like to take high doses and quit cold turkey.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on September 18, 2021, at 3:20:34
In reply to Re: I'm creating an 11 step program, posted by undopaminergic on September 1, 2021, at 13:40:40
Cool.
> I accidentally hit some unconscious schizoid and narcissistic delusions, and I felt the relief of my lifetime.
>
> -undopaminergic
>
This is the end of the thread.
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