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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kirkglen on April 7, 2014, at 11:34:16
I was on Nardil for 30+ years until the formula was changed. Then I tried every new med that came out to no avail. Basically became disabled.
@ 1 year ago I decided to go back on Nardil as it was my last chance. I couldn't work, socialize, dream, etc. During this year I've tried doses as high as 120 mg/day. The best I reached was @ 50% and that wasn't everyday. Sometimes I'd spend 2-3 days in bed.
The old Parke Davis formula utilized "carnabuca wax" to move absorption to the small intestine. Greenstone uses croscarmellose sodium.
Two weeks ago I decided I had to try something. I bought a tube of Carmex lip protector as it has several different waxes in it.
I "polished" 3 pills with the Carmex and dropped them in a glass of H2O. Then 3 pills straight from the bottle into a glass of water. ( All separate glasses of water)
The unpolished pills began breaking down quickly. The polished pills took quite awhile before starting to break down.
Anyway I felt I had nothing to lose so I started polishing my 60 mg dose. ( Taken all in the AM )
Within 2 days my mood and anxiety started improving and I think I'm close to feeling as well when I was taking the old formula.
I am going to order some carnabuca wax and find a method to coat the pills.
I only use Greenstone and specify it on my scripts. I still believe Nardil is the best AD on the market but we have to present it to the small intestine for maximum absorption.
I would appreciate any feedback......
Posted by Tomatheus on April 10, 2014, at 16:08:09
In reply to Nardil Users, posted by kirkglen on April 7, 2014, at 11:34:16
Kirkglen,
Thanks for the report on your experiment with trying to coat your phenelzine tablets differently. Are you still noticing good results from your "polished" Greenstone phenelzine tablets?
About eight years ago, I tried putting the contents of my Nardil tablets into enteric capsules from a supplement that I had bought. As far as I know, the supplement that used the enteric capsules (PlasminPlus) is no longer being made. I noticed that the urinary retention and excessive sweating that I had been noticing on 75 mg of film-coated Nardil became much less problematic, and I also (more importantly) managed to prolong my Nardil response after I started using the enteric capsules. At the time, I was being treated for what my doctor diagnosed as recurrent major depression, with strong symptoms of diminished energy, slow thinking, and excessive sleep. Unfortunately, my responses to both the U.S. (Pfizer) Nardil and the Australian Nardil didn't last, even with the enteric capsules. I suspect that a bad batch of the Pfizer Nardil and a batch of the Australian Nardil without a desiccant in the bottle may have been why I stopped responding, but I don't know for sure if those were the reasons why.
I think that you're correct that the carnauba wax that was part of the formulation of the old Nardil helped to give the old tablets their gastro-resistant properties. Another key ingredient from the old Nardil, at least in my estimation, was pharmaceutical glaze (also known as "shellac"), which is used as an enteric coating material. From what I gathered back in 2006, pharmaceutical glaze is water-insoluble at low pH levels and water-soluble at high pH levels, which allows it to dissolve in intestinal fluids but not in the acidic environment of the stomach.
At any rate, I think it's encouraging that you noticed some improvement from "polishing" your phenelzine tablets with a product containing different waxes, and I wish you luck with trying to use some ordered carnauba wax as a coating material.
Take care,
Tomatheus
Posted by kirkglen on April 11, 2014, at 19:24:53
In reply to Re: Nardil Users, posted by Tomatheus on April 10, 2014, at 16:08:09
Tomatheus
I wish I could tell you all was well. The Carmex lasted @ 2.5 weeks. Then the same old response. I'm tired, my life was @ 95% prior to the FDA mandating gluten removal.
I want to give up but I can't as I still believe pheneyzine sulfate is the best AD ever made.So I continue to try different modifications. As you know looking at the MSDS numerous chemicals have been changed, both Gavis and Greenstone and I'm sure the quality dept. stinks.
I'll assure you if I stumble on a change I'll communicate "universe wide".
I've even considered running a page ad looking for $ to sue the FDA and the pharms.
Thomatheus, was Nardil a life saver for you? Also the old Anxiety Community is gone. I suspect that wasn't by accident.
Posted by Tomatheus on April 12, 2014, at 12:32:17
In reply to Re: Nardil Users, posted by kirkglen on April 11, 2014, at 19:24:53
Kirkglen,
It's really too bad that the improvements that you seemed to notice from polishing your phenelzine tablets with Carmex didn't last for longer than 2.5 weeks. I do wish you luck with your plans to continue to modify your phenelzine tablets.
For me, Nardil was the only psychiatric medication that seemed to reduce the severity of my fatigue, slowed thinking/brain fog, and excessive sleep (which was diagnosed as recurrent major depressive disorder) to any meaningful extent for more than a few days. I still experience the same symptoms that I just listed, although I've been experiencing them to a lesser degree than what I used to since the onset of my psychosis in February 2007. I never took the old Nardil, but I functioned better during the months that I spent responding to various preparations of Nardil in 2006 than I have at any time since the onset of my fatigue and related symptoms back in the year 2000. So, in a sense, taking Nardil seemed to bring me back to life -- at least for a few months -- when nothing else could.
Now, I'm taking vitamin D3 in hopes that it might help with my fatigue and related symptoms, following results of a blood test showing that I had an insufficient level of vitamin D. I would say that as of right now, I'm feeling better than how I felt before I started supplementing with vitamin D3, but only by a little. Perhaps I'll continue to improve with time.
From what you wrote in your first post, it sounds like Nardil was perhaps uniquely beneficial to you, as far as psychiatric medications go. And as far as the treatment of my fatigue, slowed thinking/brain fog, and excessive sleep are concerned, Nardil also seemed to be the only psychiatric medication to help me for longer than a few days at a time, even though its benefits didn't last indefinitely for me. It's really a shame that none of the makers of the phenelzine products that are currently available will make the medication using the old formula that at least some individuals found to be superior to the currently available products.
Well, again, I wish you luck in trying to find a way to get Nardil/phenelzine to work for you more like how it used to with the old formula. But before I finish, I will ask you if you've ever tried taking your Nardil tablets to a compounding pharmacy to see what they might be able to do (assuming that you could afford that route)? I think that some members of the Anxiety Community's Nardil forum (which as you mentioned is now gone) had some success with doing that.
Take care,
Tomatheus
Posted by uncouth on April 12, 2014, at 14:34:01
In reply to Re: Nardil Users, posted by kirkglen on April 11, 2014, at 19:24:53
Kirkglen I am fascinated by your experiment. I use carmex as a hand moisturizer form not the lip balm but I will look into it. Caranuba wax is ALSO used in high quality car waxes, and I'm sure you could find some bulk available. i have just started nardil and will try myself....i have probably even more of an issue with this given I also take victoza/ bydureon for metabolic syndrome and residual effects of AAP weight gain, these are peptide drugs that are used in diabetes which dramatically slow the emptying of the stomach....i feel better so far on 60g of nardil but it's not a complete response....i have to admit i can't figure out why simply increasing one's dose and/or spreading out doses wouldn't increase the blood levels somehow compensenating for reduced aborbtion...so i do question when people say "it doesn't work like old nardil" if they haven't pushed the dose as far as they can to get a response.
in any event i will investigate and report back on caranuba
Posted by kirkglen on April 13, 2014, at 15:05:44
In reply to Re: Nardil Users, posted by uncouth on April 12, 2014, at 14:34:01
The Carmex was short term. I'm beginning to believe
the old time users of Parke Davis Nardil are to find they cannot "repair" the new one. You being a new user have a 75%-80% of positive results.I tried another MAOI "Parnate" , which was useless.
One thing in common with Parnate was they utilized croscarmellose sodium to move absorption to the small intestine. The same as the new Nardil.
I'm going to look up the other MAOI's to see what they use.
You, though, keep on the Nardil for at least @2 months to determine if it's good for you.
One "inactive ingredient" that Parke Davis used was acacia. I can't determine why they used it.
Alkaloids
As mentioned previously, acacias contain a number of organic compounds that defend them from pests and grazing animals. Many of these compounds are psychoactive in humans. The alkaloids found in them include dimethyltryptamine, 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine, and N-methyltryptamine. The plant leaves, stems, and/or roots are sometimes made into a brew together with some MAOI-containing plant and consumed orally for healing, ceremonial, or religious uses.
I may even get some seeds and formulate something.
This is the end of the thread.
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