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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on June 7, 2012, at 10:27:23
HI EVERYONE -- PLEASE RESPOND TELL ME IF IM CRAZY OR IF GOOD IDEA
Hi guys,
So as you know i'm a longtime regular around here....and maybe as you might be aware i've had a ton of experience with treatment alternatives for bipolar disorder, etc. I believe I have stumbled upon a really good supplemental combo that is backed by very solid research specifically for bipolar depression, and specifically treating the persistent mitochondrial stress / glutamate exitotoxicity that leads to worsening symptoms in the long term.
I want to do a supplement run as a trial of a formula I want to eventually develop and market specifically for BIPOLAR DEPRESSION. We literally have ZERO good treatment options for this particular condition from an alternative formula standpoint -- and I want to create something that can be safely added on to current medications and acts more as a neuroprotective and stabilizing force. I have scouted out a few really interesting ingredients that have been released recently, and have tried them myself, and have seen the longest period of mood stability and freedom from depression in many years (I can't attribute all of that to the supplements, but I attribute a lot of that to the supplements).
Anyway, we all know how hard this particular condition is to treat, and how poor psychiatrists are at recommending alternatives to medication. If I can get a bunch of people interested (and if you can tell your friends, or others you may connect with online who have bipolar depression, bp2, etc.) I would be willing to front the cost to do a run of a few hundred bottles, and we can run our own mini experiment. Through my own many years of experience and significant research, I would use the following in very particular dose combinations:
N-acetylcysteine
Sodium-R-Lipoic-Acid (new form of the R-Lipoic acid)
R-DH-lipoic-acid
Acetyl-L-Carnitine, possibly Arginate or Sigma-Tau version
Taurine
(Possibly low dose lithium orotate)
methylcobalaminWhat do you guys think? Is anyone interested? I think this is especially useful for mood disorders which are associated with glutamate hyperactivity and mitochondrial stress (e.g. bipolar depression). I would love to see other people get some similar results as I have and hopefully we can get this formula in front of psychiatrists worldwide. Let me know if you have any questions. Oh I would do this at cost for people on this board of course, so this isn't really profit-seeking post, I'm just trying to gauge interest for a group formulation/production run.
What do you say? Phillippa, know any BP depression people? How about you Scott? I know that's your diagnosis. Have you looked into any of these supplements? Check out clinicaltrials.gov...the combo of ALA and Acetyl-L-carnitiine is actually being tested i think at McLean, and of course we are all familiar with NAC.
I would probably need at least a few dozen people to make it worth doing a production run and trial....these supplements have shown strong effects I think taken over the long term, its not like a few week antidepressant action, but a more organic, long term, disease-course total attenuation and healing (especially in the case of NAC, which had really clear benefits but only at 6 months, which were lost after washout...which sounds bad, like who wants to wait that long, but when you think about it it, is actually really unique, because it means that the underlying disease pathology changed! THat is the goal with this formula.)
What to call it?
Uncouth's Bipolar Brew? :)
Anyway i'm serious about this, so pleas let me know your thoughts EITHER WAY or feel free to tell me IF IM CRAZY.
Posted by Phillipa on June 7, 2012, at 10:39:15
In reply to Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula?, posted by uncouth on June 7, 2012, at 10:27:23
Uncouth. I don't know what to say other than you were pretty sure I'd respond. I seriously don't think it's a good idea although others may disagree. Experimenting with alternatives is defintely beyound my scope of knowledge. Phillipa
Posted by Phil on June 7, 2012, at 12:35:57
In reply to Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula?, posted by uncouth on June 7, 2012, at 10:27:23
I agree with Phillipa and to do testing on a concoction that you think works for you on people you don't really know their dx is correct...keep a law firm on retainer. You may not think so but it's a very reckless experiment to conduct.
Posted by uncouth on June 7, 2012, at 14:03:05
In reply to Re: Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula? » uncouth, posted by Phil on June 7, 2012, at 12:35:57
not if its voluntary and people know whats in it and people are knowledgable. there is nothing reckless about a group buy for a formula that has as its components common ingredients used in psychiatric treatments. everything you see at whole foods was formulated by someone with some mix of inductive experience and theoretical background. no need for a law firm because I'm not promising anything and people know what their getting into. we're not doing a scientific study, hence the term "informal".
understand?
Posted by Ron Hill on June 19, 2012, at 6:08:02
In reply to Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula?, posted by uncouth on June 7, 2012, at 10:27:23
> I want to do a supplement run as a trial of a formula I want to eventually develop and market specifically for BIPOLAR DEPRESSION.
-----------------------Uncouth,
I fully agree with you regarding the efficacy of using vitamins and supplements as an add-on to bipolar meds. As you can see by my list at the bottom of this post, I take the endogenous form of several vitamins and supplements.
Like you, I do my homework; so there is a purpose for each vitamin and supplement that I take. Here are a few examples: I lower my homocysteine with the combination of L-methylfolate (i.e.; endogenous folate -- Deplin), plus sublingual methylcobalamin (i.e.; endogenous B12), and sublingual P-5-P (i.e.; endogenous B6). I improve the functioning of my mitochondria with N-Acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC), Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Alpha-Lipoic Acid, L-Arginine, Co-Q10, and Vitamin C. I increase my BDNF with phosphatidylserene. I improve the production of neurotransmitters with sublingual methylcobalamin and sublingual P-5-P. There are more, but you get the idea.
As would be expected, if I did not take my meds, I would get depressed. Further, to my surprise, if I skip my vitamins and supplements for more than two days in a row, I become very noticeably depressed. I have missed my daily doses of vitamins and supplements for more than two days in a row on many occasions, and EVERY TIME I become depressed.
In regard to your idea of concocting a formula, I view it as contra-productive for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, vitamins and supplements do not affect every bipolar patient the same way. As an example, since the vitamins and supplements that I take provide such a benefit in the treatment of the depressive side of my bipolar disorder, I talked one of my best friends (also bipolar) into conducting a trial of each vitamin and supplement added one at a time to his med cocktail. It completely confounded me when most of the supplements made him WORSE.
Secondly, I would not want a formula because I can already buy trusted brands of each vitamin and supplement from reputable sources. I want to be able to adjust the daily dosage up or down for each vitamin and supplement independently of the others.
Just my 2 cents.
I am very happy to hear that you are benefiting from your vitamins and supplements. Do you have any recommendations for additions or changes to the vitamins and supplements that I am currently taking? In the past, based on research, I tried taurine, but I did not sense an improvement from it.
-- Ron
MEDICATIONS:
200 mg/day lamotrigine
http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_lamictal.pdf600 mg/day oxcarbazepine
http://www.pharma.us.novartis.com/product/pi/pdf/trileptal.pdf500 mg/day Keppra
http://www.keppra.com/pc/global/Keppra_Full_PI.pdf90 mg/day Nardil
http://www.pfizer.com/files/products/uspi_nardil.pdf20 mg/day Dexedrine spanules
http://www.gsksource.com/gskprm/htdocs/documents/DEXEDRINE-PI-MG.PDF7.5 mg/day Deplin
http://www.deplin.com/25 mg/day Valdoxan (agomelatine)
http://www.servier.co.uk/products/valdoxan/
VITAMINS and SUPPLEMENTS5000 mcg/day of sublingual methylcobalamin
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-MethylCobalamin-Cherry-Flavored-5-mg-60-Tablets/1461?at=025 mg/day of sublingual P-5-P
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Coenzymated-B-6-25-mg-Sublingual-120-Tablets/1038?at=0850 mg/day of Mg 212% of RDA (as 5 grams of Mg Malate)
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Magnesium-Malate-1-250-mg-360-Tablets/19154?at=0One Multi-vitamin/day; Only 100% of all the usual vitamins; Look for good chelations. NO VANADIUM!!
http://www.iherb.com/Garden-of-Life-Raw-One-for-Men-75-UltraZorbe-Vegan-Caps/18251?at=060 ml/day (= ¼ cup) of Bottled Fish Oil
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-The-Very-Finest-Fish-Oil-Orange-Flavor-16-9-fl-oz-500-ml/7799?at=0200 mg/day phosphatidylserene
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Phosphatidyl-Serine-100-100-mg-60-Capsules/1454?at=02000 IU/day Vitamin D-3
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Vitamin-D-3-1000-IU-200-Tablets/1216?at=0600 mcg/day Chromium Picolinate
http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-Chromium-Picolinate-200-mcg-100-Capsules/1879?at=0200 mcg/day GTF Chromium
http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-GTF-Chromium-Polynicotinate-100-Capsules/1918?at=01000 mg/day Cinnamon
http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Full-Potency-Herbs-Cinnamon-100-Veggie-Caps/12156?at=0600 mg/day N-Acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC)
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-N-A-C-Sustain-600-mg-100-Bilayer-Tablets/135?at=0250 mg/day Acetyl-L-Carnitine
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Acetyl-L-Carnitine-250-250-mg-120-Capsules/175?at=0300 mg/day Alpha-Lipoic Acid
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Alpha-Lipoic-Sustain-300-with-Biotin-300-mg-120-Bilayer-Tablets/24411?at=0500 mg/day L-Arginine
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Arginine-1000-1000-mg-100-Easy-Solv-Tablets/146?at=0200 mg/day Co-Q10
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Co-Q10-200-200-mg-60-Capsules/224?at=02 g/day Vitamin C
http://www.iherb.com/Allergy-Research-Group-Nutricology-Pure-Vitamin-C-100-Capsules/3449?at=0Article
http://biogaba.com/images/nutrients_botanicals_stress.pdf
Posted by Phillipa on June 19, 2012, at 20:42:25
In reply to Re: Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula? » uncouth, posted by Ron Hill on June 19, 2012, at 6:08:02
Ron so pleased to hear you are doing so well. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on June 30, 2012, at 8:56:36
In reply to Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula?, posted by uncouth on June 7, 2012, at 10:27:23
What you have described here is an amino acid approach. The longterm perspective you mentioned is also consistent with that.
I've been studying books on this topic in the last few weeks so it was of interest to see your post.
That does look like a good formula. Caution however to anyone who has or had amalgam fillings. The alpha lipoic acid and cysteine will dislodge stored mercury and metals, but not have the chelation power to take it all to excretion fast enough, so there could be some redistribution and worsening of symptoms. In those case, the alpha lipoic acid needs to be divided so that it is dosed every 3 hours (its half life).
The amino acid approach is sort of a guessing game unless one has a blood amino acid profile test done, about $200. Then they can see exactly which ones are too high or low. Knowing what to do about that takes a bit of study. Guessing the wrong approach can make things worse.
For example, tryptophan can both improve or worsen psychotic depression. Same with tyrosine, can make it worse or better. The same goes for 18 other amino acids.
Some people are sulfur sensitive. They would do poorly on your formula.
In general though it looks good. I do not have experience and am not yet an expert, but I think I can safely say additional ingredients that could fine-tune the formula for different types of depression would be methione, tryptophan, tyrosine, and phenylalanine.
Posted by Ron Hill on July 2, 2012, at 6:01:59
In reply to Re: Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula? » Ron Hill, posted by Phillipa on June 19, 2012, at 20:42:25
> Ron so pleased to hear you are doing so well. Phillipa
Thank you, Jan.
I hope for the same degree of remission for everyone.
It seems unfair and unfortunate that many bright people on PB who taught me how to conduct good research, continue to struggle with their own illness. This grieves my heart.
Current posters, and long-gone Old-Timers, taught me the ropes of conducting good research. Without their tutelage, I doubt that I would have found remission due to the complexity of Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling.
Switching gears, as an add-on to my post above in this thread, I am currently conducting a "trial" to identify the endogenous vitamins and supplements which I absolutely must have in order to prevent me from falling into depression when I do not take them for three or so days.
Until very recently, I always included my 7.5 mg/day tablet of Deplin in my vitamins and supplements plastic cases because I viewed Deplin as a nutraceutical rather than a medication. As you know, L-methylfolate is the endogenous form of folate in our bodies.
However, now I group Deplin with my medications. I always take Deplin now because I never neglect to take my meds daily.
It is early in my vitamin and supplement trial. However, so far my preliminary results indicate that the main reason I would get depressed if I skipped three or more days of my vitamins and supplements was that I was also not taking Deplin on those several days in a row because I was taking Deplin with my vitamins and supplements.
I also take sublingual methylcobalamin (i.e.; endogenous B12), and sublingual P-5-P (i.e.; endogenous B6) to enhance the efficacy of Deplin.
All of this is NOT to say that each vitamin and supplement on my long-list is useless; quite the contrary. Given the available research, I am convinced that each vitamin and supplement on my long-list is highly beneficial in the tx of bipolar disorder (for some patients).
In fact, there are other vitamins and supplements that I would like to add to my long-list. But, it costs $200 per month for my current long-list.
Therefore, it is highly beneficial to identify the specific vitamins and supplements which I just cannot do without. This is what I am attempting to discover in my current trial. So far, it looks like Deplin was the culprit that caused depression if I went without it for three or more days.
Time will tell.
-- Ron
MEDICATIONS:
200 mg/day lamotrigine
http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_lamictal.pdf600 mg/day oxcarbazepine
http://www.pharma.us.novartis.com/product/pi/pdf/trileptal.pdf500 mg/day Keppra
http://www.keppra.com/pc/global/Keppra_Full_PI.pdf90 mg/day Nardil
http://www.pfizer.com/files/products/uspi_nardil.pdf20 mg/day Dexedrine spanules
http://www.gsksource.com/gskprm/htdocs/documents/DEXEDRINE-PI-MG.PDF7.5 mg/day Deplin
http://www.deplin.com/25 mg/day Valdoxan (agomelatine)
http://www.servier.co.uk/products/valdoxan/
A list of the Vitamins and Supplements that I am currently taking during my Trial:5000 mcg/day of sublingual methylcobalamin
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-MethylCobalamin-Cherry-Flavored-5-mg-60-Tablets/1461?at=025 mg/day of sublingual P-5-P
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Coenzymated-B-6-25-mg-Sublingual-120-Tablets/1038?at=0
The rest of my long-list of Vitamins and Supplements which I am not currently taking:850 mg/day of Mg 212% of RDA (as 5 grams of Mg Malate)
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Magnesium-Malate-1-250-mg-360-Tablets/19154?at=0One Multi-vitamin/day; Only 100% of all the usual vitamins; Look for good chelations. NO VANADIUM!!
http://www.iherb.com/Garden-of-Life-Raw-One-for-Men-75-UltraZorbe-Vegan-Caps/18251?at=060 ml/day (= ¼ cup) of Bottled Fish Oil
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-The-Very-Finest-Fish-Oil-Orange-Flavor-16-9-fl-oz-500-ml/7799?at=0200 mg/day phosphatidylserene
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Phosphatidyl-Serine-100-100-mg-60-Capsules/1454?at=02000 IU/day Vitamin D-3
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Vitamin-D-3-1000-IU-200-Tablets/1216?at=0600 mcg/day Chromium Picolinate
http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-Chromium-Picolinate-200-mcg-100-Capsules/1879?at=0200 mcg/day GTF Chromium
http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-GTF-Chromium-Polynicotinate-100-Capsules/1918?at=01000 mg/day Cinnamon
http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Full-Potency-Herbs-Cinnamon-100-Veggie-Caps/12156?at=0600 mg/day N-Acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC)
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-N-A-C-Sustain-600-mg-100-Bilayer-Tablets/135?at=0250 mg/day Acetyl-L-Carnitine
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Acetyl-L-Carnitine-250-250-mg-120-Capsules/175?at=0300 mg/day Alpha-Lipoic Acid
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Alpha-Lipoic-Sustain-300-with-Biotin-300-mg-120-Bilayer-Tablets/24411?at=0500 mg/day L-Arginine
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Arginine-1000-1000-mg-100-Easy-Solv-Tablets/146?at=0200 mg/day Co-Q10
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Co-Q10-200-200-mg-60-Capsules/224?at=02 g/day Vitamin C
http://www.iherb.com/Allergy-Research-Group-Nutricology-Pure-Vitamin-C-100-Capsules/3449?at=0
Posted by SLS on July 2, 2012, at 7:42:22
In reply to Re: Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula? » Phillipa, posted by Ron Hill on July 2, 2012, at 6:01:59
I knew it!!!
I knew it!!!
I knew it!!!
Congratulations!
I am mega-happy for you.
Woohoo!
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2012, at 19:23:46
In reply to Re: Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula? » Phillipa, posted by Ron Hill on July 2, 2012, at 6:01:59
I feel more emphasis should be placed on supplements. I found that Carlson's fish oil caps pharmacitical formula caused what felt like stress for me. Fine tuning. But you have the basics. Did you ever get tested for the gene? Jan
Posted by Ron Hill on July 29, 2012, at 17:26:51
In reply to Re: Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula? » Ron Hill, posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2012, at 19:23:46
> Did you ever get tested for the gene? Jan
Nope. What gene? What test?
-- Ron
Posted by Phillipa on July 29, 2012, at 21:47:01
In reply to Re: Anyone interested in bipolar depression formula? » Phillipa, posted by Ron Hill on July 29, 2012, at 17:26:51
Ron the gene test that says if you missing the methalpholate one or something like this. Deplin replaces something. Read it so long ago. Believe it could be in the archieves if not will try and find it later. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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