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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by thefan on June 2, 2012, at 18:06:17
Hi
I have been on benzos now for about two months. Yes i know this is not a long time, but from my initial dose of rivatril which was about 1,5mg a day, im now approximately at 3, and its not really helping either . I dont know why, but always when i use benzos longer, for periods of more then 2 weeks they dont work aswel even if i up the dose. My breathing goes to havoc and causes me even more anxiety/panic.
Anyway. Im gonna stop using rivatril, as the dosage is upping all the time, and i am thinking of strategies to do this. BEcause i only used it for two months, i believe will just QUIT taking it. I know this seems silly for some people but if i start cutting the dose the process will take even longer . I think after about 4 weeks after total discontinuing i should know if i still have anxiety symptoms/ what thay are.
Anyway i need some medication to help me with it. Im currently on lyrica 600mg, and 7,5mg of remeron.
Lyrica is helping some obviously, but its not really tackling all the panic that discontinuation will cause me.
Medicine i have heard helpfull are.
catapresan (clonidine) (i dont know about dosage but i know it cannot be too much). Im wondering if remeron will affect it somehow because i have heard its antagonization of the α2-adrenergic sensor. catapresan agonises this same receptor.But the dosage of lyrica is really small, i think it may be even 5mg, so do these affect eachother?
anafranil slow dose might help me sleep better?
If i would take off some lyrica and use tegretol instead do you think it could help me with anxiety because it seems to make you pretty drowsy?
baclofen idea on this one?
Any help is greatly appreciated and please answer fasr im seeing my psych doc regarding the matters on tuesday ;(.
Posted by thefan on June 2, 2012, at 18:10:16
In reply to benzo withdrawal stretegy, posted by thefan on June 2, 2012, at 18:06:17
Umm i was talking about trileptal not tegretol, sorry for the messup. I have heard it affects different receptors then lyrica. Even though its a similard drug.
Änd im propably not taking them all, i was thinking of starting with clonidine to see how it goes, but other recommendations would be off great help
Posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2012, at 19:20:40
In reply to Re: benzo withdrawal stretegy, posted by thefan on June 2, 2012, at 18:10:16
Valium and keep decreasing dose? Phillipa
Posted by thefan on June 3, 2012, at 16:31:44
In reply to Re: benzo withdrawal stretegy » thefan, posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2012, at 19:20:40
Seems like i was "psycho" babbling yesterday quite alot ;). Ok. Fist of all i was talking about mirtazapine antagonising the alpha receptor and clonidine agonising it ;).
After reading some stories i have come to the conclusion that baclofen is somewhat addictive, but oxcarbazepine (trileptal), and clonidine are not.
Some off label uses for clonidine are by the way for panic disorder. It helps for some people.
Whats weird is that yesterday i took about 3mg of klonopin, and had extreme anxiety/panic for the whole day. Today i took about 1,5mg and i have had no panic attacks im just feeling pretty much exhausted.My history with benzos is one i am not very fond off. Before i found a med that helped (lyrica) i was hooked on ativan, about 10mg per day, and it did not help anything. I developed this tolerance in 2 months! Then i took rivatril and ativan, and had some amount of help from this combo. Also sleep medication benzo. If i have not taken anything for 2 months. 7,5mg of imovane puts me to sleep and i sleep for the night. But next night unless i take 15mg there is no sleep , so i think my body is not tolerating benzos too well. Anyway i detoxed from this high dose of rivatril and ativan in 1 month. Cold turkey. Dangerous as hell, but as it did not help 1 bit, i thought it was the only option unless i want to lose my mind. First 2½ weeks was the worst of my life. Constant trembling , sweats. If i hadnt just started lyrica there would have not been no way out, it was just so sedating at first, that it let me sleep. But now i dont have that backing me up, and trileptal is acting on some different receptors in the brain then lyrica and seems to be causing tiredness, so it may be a good way to try ?
Posted by xean on June 3, 2012, at 19:20:34
In reply to Re: benzo withdrawal stretegy, posted by thefan on June 3, 2012, at 16:31:44
I tried once stopping xanax cold turkey. I felt like I had the worst flue of my life I felt like I was dieing. Always taper down slowly. I am back on xanax because my anxiety and paranoia got worse off of it.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on June 4, 2012, at 0:24:36
In reply to Re: benzo withdrawal stretegy, posted by thefan on June 3, 2012, at 16:31:44
there's a medication called Gabitril which is a GABA reptake inhibitor...antidepressant version of sedatives....works similar to SSRI's but only on GABA...but i've read it can cause siezures with people who do not have epilepsy, and cause other complications.
U could try Nuerontin too...the max dose for lyrica is I think 600...nuerontin can be used in vary high doses in some cases, lyrica has a max dose limit unless you find a doctor that will work without the annoying safetly fda dose catagories.
I take clonodine....it does work, but it can make u depressed.
and of course there's atrax....used much in the public mental health professionals, it may work...may not.
good luck to you....be eleborate of your symptoms.
rj
Posted by bleauberry on June 5, 2012, at 13:14:23
In reply to benzo withdrawal stretegy, posted by thefan on June 2, 2012, at 18:06:17
I am all in favor the multitude of disease benefits plant chemicals offer. In your shoes, and I have been there, I would call upon them as a base for the weaning/withdrawal period. I would be using at least two but maybe all of....lemon balm, passionflower, skullcap, valerian root, magneesium...as a base for anything else I do. Those offer respectable support in the anxiety/panic/sleep departments.
I would also consider the adaptogen plants, since they impact the very places where that grinding anxiety comes from....dysfunctional signals from pituitary gland or adrenal gland. Rhodiola, Eletheuro, Ashwaganda.
Weird but I started taking rhodiola months ago for its antidepressant and stimulant reputation. A lot of users commented on its great anti anxiety and anti panic effect. Well, it has not been the antidepressant miracle to me that it has been to others, and I do not find it stimulating....though it definitely helps endurance....but the main thing I have gotten from it is anti anxiety. I know there are a multitude of other health benefits happening as well, whether I can feel them or not. It is very finnicky with dose size though and can easily go against me if I do a wrong dose size. I found ashwaganda more immediately calming, and eleuthero good at that too.
So with or without a good base from which to work, all I can say is go slow and in tiny steps. If you are getting profound panic during a weaning process, it simply means the dose was lowered too fast and/or in too large of a step. Have you ever made your own custom doses out of your pills and capsules? If not, a weaning process is the perfect time to practice it.
What to replace your meds with is another issue. Would be nice to have something to cross-taper to and avoid a hard wean altogether. But then again, that kind of thinking keeps us trapped in the merrigoround.
I mention this just for curiousity sake and pondering thought. Anxiety issues are basically....too much stimulating brain chemicals in action and not enough calming ones in action. Too much adrenaline. Too much norepinephrine. Too much epinephrine. Something like that. Something in that arena is too much. So how do we lower it? Well, ok this sounds backwards, but we give it more. Makes things worse in the beginning, but then makes it better. That's because the feedback loops kick in and recognize there is too much going on and so they turn the volume down. So now, despite the fact that a med or herb is actually adding more of the offensive subject, the body itself has readjusted the total end result of that downward. These adjustments begin at about 4 days and continue for weeks and months. For me the med that did that in the most profound fashion was savella. I had viscious anxiety, the kind where you are terrified to even think about going anywhere. I was already wired, so the thought of taking a med that is strong on norepinephrine scared me. Didn't make sense. Sure worked good though.
Anyway, I'm just trying to point out that there are many other options, both inside and outside the psychiatrist's limited toolbox, and sometimes the ones that can help the most are the ones we least suspect or the ones we would logically predict could not possibly be helpful. For example, if we are talking anxiety, then almost all of us limit our thoughts to benzos and cousins, APs, maybe ssris, maybe mood stabilizers, where in fact if we've been dealing with these kinds of meds for a long time and not getting very far with them, then that is a loud clear signal that's the wrong arena to be playing in....time to consider some paradoxical approaches and out of the box approaches, especially after first line, second line, and third line choices have disappointed. Those are all basically just clues trying to tell you, "what you are looking for aint here, it's over there where you aren't looking".
Posted by jjjaspar on June 13, 2012, at 9:07:00
In reply to Re: benzo withdrawal stretegy, posted by bleauberry on June 5, 2012, at 13:14:23
I agree with bleauberry that there are a lot of different tools in the world. The psychiatrist only uses a few of them.
Tapering very slowly is a given. I have heard of people using amino acids to help with the withdrawal, although I do not know what the mechanism of action is. I am a fan of adaptogen supplements and Rhodiola. Also for sleep, there are simple things like melatonin, glycine, magnesium, and tryptophan.
The best thing is to consult with an Integrative Medical Doctor.
This is the end of the thread.
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