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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zazenducke on May 16, 2012, at 8:24:45
Bbbut they said ADs don't cause dependence.
ABSTRACT
Aims To explore the rationale for claiming that benzodiazepines cause dependence while selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) do not.
Methods We analysed the definitions of dependence and withdrawal reactions as they had appeared over time in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Diseases (DSM) and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). We also compared the discontinuation symptoms described for the two drug groups in a systematic review.
Results The definition of substance dependence has changed over time in both the DSM and ICD. In the most recent classifications several criteria, including behavioural, physiological and cognitive manifestations, must be fulfilled. This change was published with the revision of the DSM-III revision in 1987 (DSM-IIIR), after the recognition of benzodiazepine dependence and just before the SSRIs were marketed in 198788. We found that discontinuation symptoms were described with similar terms for benzodiazepines and SSRIs and were very similar for 37 of 42 identified symptoms described as withdrawal reactions.
Conclusions Withdrawal reactions to selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors appear to be similar to those for benzodiazepines; referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2011.03686.x/abstract
Posted by Phil on May 16, 2012, at 9:44:26
In reply to Dependence on SSRIs ?, posted by zazenducke on May 16, 2012, at 8:24:45
From what I've read about getting off of benzos and my experience with every SSRI, I can only hope if I get off of clonazepam that it would be that easy.
SSRI's were very easy for me to get off of by using Prozac to wean myself. I had no problems.
Maybe we could get 10 babblers to stop their SSRI and 10 to stop their benzo. Wonder how that would turn out.
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2012, at 10:38:37
In reply to Re: Dependence on SSRIs ?, posted by Phil on May 16, 2012, at 9:44:26
Phil in all honesty this has been my hope and goal for years now. I play with amounts and doses. Although my doses are low for both and don't work I'm afraid yes afraid to try due to how horrible I feel on them and due to age. I just got up late as always to taccycardia and severe sweating. Why no idea. Does it go away yes as day goes on. And I take no meds during the way. I'm at a loss to explain this? Other than I'm dying or low blood sugar or heart problems. Will I see a doc no why as they will just find something else wrong with me. I'm resigned. Phillipa an all about me post but a future one of the l0 babblers.
Posted by Phil on May 16, 2012, at 12:06:45
In reply to Re: Dependence on SSRIs ? » Phil, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2012, at 10:38:37
Are you saying that you're trying to get off of a benzo and SSRI?
Posted by sigismund on May 16, 2012, at 15:41:04
In reply to Dependence on SSRIs ?, posted by zazenducke on May 16, 2012, at 8:24:45
The whole addiction vs dependence thing (so recent in popular discourse) is just there to justify the denial of the demand for relief from things that really work and are addictive and to make people take the things that they like less and cause them and their doctors less trouble.
Just demand and crowd management, isn't it?
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2012, at 19:23:25
In reply to Re: Dependence on SSRIs ?, posted by sigismund on May 16, 2012, at 15:41:04
So much bad press and then diseases caused by them. Start with benzos and dementia/Alzheimers. Nothing is okay anymore it seems. Phillipa
Posted by Beckett on May 16, 2012, at 19:45:20
In reply to Dependence on SSRIs ?, posted by zazenducke on May 16, 2012, at 8:24:45
> referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.
Wow. I wonder how long this will take to make it's way into some professionals' work and thought. Thanks for this link. I'm pleased to see some rational discourse on addiction taking place.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2012, at 21:08:12
In reply to Dependence on SSRIs ?, posted by zazenducke on May 16, 2012, at 8:24:45
> Bbbut they said ADs don't cause dependence.
>
>
>
>
>
> ABSTRACT
>
> Aims To explore the rationale for claiming that benzodiazepines cause dependence while selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) do not.
>
> Methods We analysed the definitions of dependence and withdrawal reactions as they had appeared over time in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Diseases (DSM) and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). We also compared the discontinuation symptoms described for the two drug groups in a systematic review.
>
> Results The definition of substance dependence has changed over time in both the DSM and ICD. In the most recent classifications several criteria, including behavioural, physiological and cognitive manifestations, must be fulfilled. This change was published with the revision of the DSM-III revision in 1987 (DSM-IIIR), after the recognition of benzodiazepine dependence and just before the SSRIs were marketed in 198788. We found that discontinuation symptoms were described with similar terms for benzodiazepines and SSRIs and were very similar for 37 of 42 identified symptoms described as withdrawal reactions.
>
> Conclusions Withdrawal reactions to selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors appear to be similar to those for benzodiazepines; referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.
>
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2011.03686.x/abstractFriends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
Lou
To view this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in;
[youtube, America's Addiction to Dangerous Antidepressant drugs].
There is a pic of a man and it was posted on April 9 2012...
Posted by GoddamnElectric on May 17, 2012, at 0:36:26
In reply to Lou's request-kumnteeighovdhth, posted by Lou Pilder on May 16, 2012, at 21:08:12
> > Bbbut they said ADs don't cause dependence.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ABSTRACT
> >
> > Aims To explore the rationale for claiming that benzodiazepines cause dependence while selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) do not.
> >
> > Methods We analysed the definitions of dependence and withdrawal reactions as they had appeared over time in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Diseases (DSM) and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). We also compared the discontinuation symptoms described for the two drug groups in a systematic review.
> >
> > Results The definition of substance dependence has changed over time in both the DSM and ICD. In the most recent classifications several criteria, including behavioural, physiological and cognitive manifestations, must be fulfilled. This change was published with the revision of the DSM-III revision in 1987 (DSM-IIIR), after the recognition of benzodiazepine dependence and just before the SSRIs were marketed in 198788. We found that discontinuation symptoms were described with similar terms for benzodiazepines and SSRIs and were very similar for 37 of 42 identified symptoms described as withdrawal reactions.
> >
> > Conclusions Withdrawal reactions to selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors appear to be similar to those for benzodiazepines; referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.
> >
> > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2011.03686.x/abstract
>
> Friends,
> If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
> Lou
> To view this video:
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in;
> [youtube, America's Addiction to Dangerous Antidepressant drugs].
> There is a pic of a man and it was posted on April 9 2012...
Dangerous.... or a tool just like any other? There are no hard and fast cures or guarantees in life. Any form of condition someone may be suffering, treatment is pure trial and error.I personally think you putting out a scaremongering message, is more harmful than those on a path of treatment that includes medication.
At the end of the day, sh*t happens... hopefully most of us can figure out a way to sort our sh*t out.
Good day sir.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 17, 2012, at 5:43:33
In reply to Re: Lou's request-kumnteeighovdhth, posted by GoddamnElectric on May 17, 2012, at 0:36:26
> > > Bbbut they said ADs don't cause dependence.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ABSTRACT
> > >
> > > Aims To explore the rationale for claiming that benzodiazepines cause dependence while selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) do not.
> > >
> > > Methods We analysed the definitions of dependence and withdrawal reactions as they had appeared over time in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Diseases (DSM) and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). We also compared the discontinuation symptoms described for the two drug groups in a systematic review.
> > >
> > > Results The definition of substance dependence has changed over time in both the DSM and ICD. In the most recent classifications several criteria, including behavioural, physiological and cognitive manifestations, must be fulfilled. This change was published with the revision of the DSM-III revision in 1987 (DSM-IIIR), after the recognition of benzodiazepine dependence and just before the SSRIs were marketed in 198788. We found that discontinuation symptoms were described with similar terms for benzodiazepines and SSRIs and were very similar for 37 of 42 identified symptoms described as withdrawal reactions.
> > >
> > > Conclusions Withdrawal reactions to selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors appear to be similar to those for benzodiazepines; referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.
> > >
> > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2011.03686.x/abstract
> >
> > Friends,
> > If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
> > Lou
> > To view this video:
> > A. Pull up Google
> > B. Type in;
> > [youtube, America's Addiction to Dangerous Antidepressant drugs].
> > There is a pic of a man and it was posted on April 9 2012...
>
>
> Dangerous.... or a tool just like any other? There are no hard and fast cures or guarantees in life. Any form of condition someone may be suffering, treatment is pure trial and error.
>
> I personally think you putting out a scaremongering message, is more harmful than those on a path of treatment that includes medication.
>
> At the end of the day, sh*t happens... hopefully most of us can figure out a way to sort our sh*t out.
>
> Good day sir.
>Good morning sir,
You wrote,[...a path of treatment that include medication...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond ccorsingly.
A. What is your conception as to what a {medication} is?
B. What {medication}, then, are you referring to?
C. Is this a mind-altering drug?
D. If so, and it is a prescribed psychiatric drug such as a so-called SSRI, could you post here what you know as to how that drug acts in the human body?
E. Are you aware that it is generally agreed on that about 42,000 people died last year as a result of one way or another from taking psychiatric drugs?
F. Are you aware that parents consent to druggin' their children, in collaberation with psychiatrists, and that the drugs imposed on the child could cause an increase in suicidal thinking? And also in homocidal thinking?
G. Are you aware of the evidence that psychotropic drugs can worsen depression?
H. Are you aware of the chemical constituants in psychotropic drugs that are {nerve agents}?
K. Are you aware that some of those chemical constituants are used in poison gas used in mass-murder, such as the attacks in the Japan subway that killed many?
L. Are you aware that many of the psychiatric drugs can cause not only death but induce a life-ruining condition such as tardive dysskinesia, diabetes, neuroleptic malignant syndrome that can be fatal, or addiction so bad that there are people that have withdrawan from street drugs and then become addicted to psychiatric drugs and report that the withdrawal from psychiatric drugs is worse than the withdrawal from heroin or cocaine?
...more if responses are posted...
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 17, 2012, at 6:09:56
In reply to Lou's reply-partial » GoddamnElectric, posted by Lou Pilder on May 17, 2012, at 5:43:33
> > > > Bbbut they said ADs don't cause dependence.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ABSTRACT
> > > >
> > > > Aims To explore the rationale for claiming that benzodiazepines cause dependence while selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) do not.
> > > >
> > > > Methods We analysed the definitions of dependence and withdrawal reactions as they had appeared over time in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Diseases (DSM) and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). We also compared the discontinuation symptoms described for the two drug groups in a systematic review.
> > > >
> > > > Results The definition of substance dependence has changed over time in both the DSM and ICD. In the most recent classifications several criteria, including behavioural, physiological and cognitive manifestations, must be fulfilled. This change was published with the revision of the DSM-III revision in 1987 (DSM-IIIR), after the recognition of benzodiazepine dependence and just before the SSRIs were marketed in 198788. We found that discontinuation symptoms were described with similar terms for benzodiazepines and SSRIs and were very similar for 37 of 42 identified symptoms described as withdrawal reactions.
> > > >
> > > > Conclusions Withdrawal reactions to selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors appear to be similar to those for benzodiazepines; referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.
> > > >
> > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2011.03686.x/abstract
> > >
> > > Friends,
> > > If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
> > > Lou
> > > To view this video:
> > > A. Pull up Google
> > > B. Type in;
> > > [youtube, America's Addiction to Dangerous Antidepressant drugs].
> > > There is a pic of a man and it was posted on April 9 2012...
> >
> >
> > Dangerous.... or a tool just like any other? There are no hard and fast cures or guarantees in life. Any form of condition someone may be suffering, treatment is pure trial and error.
> >
> > I personally think you putting out a scaremongering message, is more harmful than those on a path of treatment that includes medication.
> >
> > At the end of the day, sh*t happens... hopefully most of us can figure out a way to sort our sh*t out.
> >
> > Good day sir.
> >
>
> Good morning sir,
> You wrote,[...a path of treatment that include medication...].
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond ccorsingly.
> A. What is your conception as to what a {medication} is?
> B. What {medication}, then, are you referring to?
> C. Is this a mind-altering drug?
> D. If so, and it is a prescribed psychiatric drug such as a so-called SSRI, could you post here what you know as to how that drug acts in the human body?
> E. Are you aware that it is generally agreed on that about 42,000 people died last year as a result of one way or another from taking psychiatric drugs?
> F. Are you aware that parents consent to druggin' their children, in collaberation with psychiatrists, and that the drugs imposed on the child could cause an increase in suicidal thinking? And also in homocidal thinking?
> G. Are you aware of the evidence that psychotropic drugs can worsen depression?
> H. Are you aware of the chemical constituants in psychotropic drugs that are {nerve agents}?
> K. Are you aware that some of those chemical constituants are used in poison gas used in mass-murder, such as the attacks in the Japan subway that killed many?
> L. Are you aware that many of the psychiatric drugs can cause not only death but induce a life-ruining condition such as tardive dysskinesia, diabetes, neuroleptic malignant syndrome that can be fatal, or addiction so bad that there are people that have withdrawan from street drugs and then become addicted to psychiatric drugs and report that the withdrawal from psychiatric drugs is worse than the withdrawal from heroin or cocaine?
> ...more if responses are posted...
> LouFriends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting tht yoiu view the following video.
Lou
To view this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[youtube, Psychiatry verses Physical Medicine-Part 1]
This is by Dr. Moira Dolan, MD...her pic is there...usually first..then part II is on the side
Posted by bleauberry on May 18, 2012, at 8:28:54
In reply to Dependence on SSRIs ?, posted by zazenducke on May 16, 2012, at 8:24:45
Well, we've all known this for quite some time now. Years. Soon they will discover antipsychotics are in the same category as well. It seems to me academia is always lagging behind the real world, or off in some fake world, so it's nice to see someone acknowledging something we patients already know.
> Bbbut they said ADs don't cause dependence.
>
>
>
>
>
> ABSTRACT
>
> Aims To explore the rationale for claiming that benzodiazepines cause dependence while selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) do not.
>
> Methods We analysed the definitions of dependence and withdrawal reactions as they had appeared over time in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Diseases (DSM) and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). We also compared the discontinuation symptoms described for the two drug groups in a systematic review.
>
> Results The definition of substance dependence has changed over time in both the DSM and ICD. In the most recent classifications several criteria, including behavioural, physiological and cognitive manifestations, must be fulfilled. This change was published with the revision of the DSM-III revision in 1987 (DSM-IIIR), after the recognition of benzodiazepine dependence and just before the SSRIs were marketed in 198788. We found that discontinuation symptoms were described with similar terms for benzodiazepines and SSRIs and were very similar for 37 of 42 identified symptoms described as withdrawal reactions.
>
> Conclusions Withdrawal reactions to selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors appear to be similar to those for benzodiazepines; referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.
>
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2011.03686.x/abstract
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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