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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Conundrum on November 12, 2010, at 13:07:17
In reply to Re: Tianeptine activates A1 adenosine receptors, posted by sukarno on November 10, 2010, at 11:46:44
> Everyone is different though. Maybe you can increase the dosage to 4 tablets a day to see if you can bring on the activating effects.Hmm, I did some fuzzy math when buying the stuff, I only have about a week left and I can only enough for 3 a day that week. So if I don't notice anything soon that will be the end of the tianeptine experiment.
Posted by sigismund on November 12, 2010, at 13:10:14
In reply to Re: Tianeptine activates A1 adenosine receptors, posted by Conundrum on November 12, 2010, at 9:23:00
>hypomania, irritibility? this must be a normal person's response to the increase in DA.
Maybe. I'd find myself day dreaming about sex a lot, so I expect that was.
What's the numbness? Like the anhedonia?
The worst groggy? You take mirtazepine, right? That made me so hung over I only took it twice.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 12, 2010, at 17:52:10
In reply to Re: Tianeptine activates A1 adenosine receptors, posted by Conundrum on November 12, 2010, at 9:23:00
> wow are we all taking the same drug? the best it >made me feel was like numb like novacaine and the >worst groggy.
Hmm, I get the grogginess, and also feel a little more flat/apathetic (well, after 2 days use anyway), which is a good thing for me.
Posted by sukarno on November 13, 2010, at 15:23:23
In reply to Re: Tianeptine activates A1 adenosine receptors » Conundrum, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 12, 2010, at 17:52:10
Although all prescription drugs in Indonesia require a prescription, many pharmacies sell non-scheduled (non-controlled) drugs without asking for a prescription. They aren't over-the-counter, but you have to ask for it and they just give it to you.
That's the way it is with antibiotics (unfortunately), antidepressants, tramadol, NSAIDs and Stablon, etc.
The problem is the pharmacist said that he's getting more reports of abuse regarding Stablon and they might start asking for prescriptions soon. Then he asked if I had a prescription but I said I've been a regular customer having bought Stablon in the past. Then he said "ahh, okay.".
However, he was a jerk about the Xanax and said it was too high of a dose despite the prescription originating from an expensive private hospital and psychiatrist to boot. When I mentioned that I have panic disorder he then backed down and agreed that the dosage I'm on would be acceptable. I suppose there are a lot of people on Xanax who don't have panic disorder. I suppose the dosage must be a lot less for average states of anxiety.
I hope Stablon doesn't become controlled! I don't think it will be harder to get, but it will mean more hassle such as having to see one (or more) doctors to get enough. Doctors here are ignorant about Stablon dosages. They think you must adhere to the generic Servier statement of "1 tablet three times a day from the start!". If you take 4 a day they say, "That is excessive!".
As far as I know, all antidepressants have large variations in dosage and Stablon in particular has a huge therapeutic range. Perhaps they don't have much knowledge and think that because Stablon is a "tricyclic" that it must somehow be cardiotoxic (it isn't). However, even the classic TCAs have a wide range of doses.
I hope Stablon doesn't follow the path of amineptine (Survector) and become controlled and then finally banned or pulled off the market. :-(
Indonesia is one of most liberal countries with regards to prescription drugs so if it became controlled here, just imagine what the other countries are thinking. I know it is controlled in Singapore and in one middle eastern country. In Russia it is under lock and key in many pharmacies.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 13, 2010, at 23:49:15
In reply to tianeptine might become scheduled/controlled, posted by sukarno on November 13, 2010, at 15:23:23
Hmm, it's making me feel worse at the moment - really lethargic and depressed. I just spend the morning/afternoon lying around the house, too tired and apathetic to do anything.
Posted by Conundrum on November 14, 2010, at 8:42:49
In reply to Re: tianeptine, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 13, 2010, at 23:49:15
> Hmm, it's making me feel worse at the moment - really lethargic and depressed. I just spend the morning/afternoon lying around the house, too tired and apathetic to do anything.
Thats what the first we was like for me. It got better thought, and I returned to my baseline depression.
I have about 4 days left of pills. Hopefully it kicks in or I"m done with it.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 14, 2010, at 21:49:20
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by Conundrum on November 14, 2010, at 8:42:49
>
> Thats what the first we was like for me. It got better thought, and I returned to my baseline depression.
>
> I have about 4 days left of pills. Hopefully it kicks in or I"m done with it.Did it also make you more anxious at first? I'm getting this horrible adrenaline sensation which Sukarno describes.
Posted by Conundrum on November 15, 2010, at 8:15:32
In reply to Re: tianeptine » Conundrum, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 14, 2010, at 21:49:20
No, not at all. I didn't think tianeptine had any effect on adrenaline. I wouldn't be surprised if that goes away with time.
>
> >
> > Thats what the first we was like for me. It got better thought, and I returned to my baseline depression.
> >
> > I have about 4 days left of pills. Hopefully it kicks in or I"m done with it.
>
> Did it also make you more anxious at first? I'm getting this horrible adrenaline sensation which Sukarno describes.
>
>
Posted by hyperfocus on November 15, 2010, at 9:27:00
In reply to tianeptine might become scheduled/controlled, posted by sukarno on November 13, 2010, at 15:23:23
In Russia junkies crush and inject Stablon into their veins. There was a pretty graphic video making the rounds on the net showing the consequences of this - people with various stages of necrosis i.e the flesh was rotting off their limbs. Some people you could see their bones from the holes in their arms. It's no wonder it's controlled there. I really hope that Stablon doesn't go the way of Survector because of this.
Posted by sukarno on November 15, 2010, at 11:26:16
In reply to Re: tianeptine » Conundrum, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 14, 2010, at 21:49:20
>
> >
> > Thats what the first we was like for me. It got better thought, and I returned to my baseline depression.
> >
> > I have about 4 days left of pills. Hopefully it kicks in or I"m done with it.
>
> Did it also make you more anxious at first? I'm getting this horrible adrenaline sensation which Sukarno describes.
>
>The alleged adrenaline sensation finally went away 2 or 3 days ago with me and now I haven't used my lightbox in almost a week, but the majority (75 to 90% if I had to put a number on it) of the depression is gone. Usually if I skip just 1 day of light therapy my depression returns and if I miss 2 days it is horrible.
I feel relaxed now even though I'm in an adverse situation. I really dislike (hate is a better word even though I don't like to use it) Indonesia. I can't wait to go back to the US as I've been trapped here for nearly 10 years. I can imagine how effective Stablon would be if I was in the US again. Heck, I probably wouldn't even need an antidepressant. Light therapy would probably be enough.
I'm still taking 1/2 tablet 4x/day and only needed to take Valium once to counter the adrenaline-like effects.
I hope it works out for you! :-)
Regards,
Paul
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
In reply to Re: tianeptine, posted by sukarno on November 15, 2010, at 11:26:16
Thanks for your response sukarno. A couple of questions, if you don't mind -
a) What does the anti-depressant effect actually feel when it manifests? So far, after 4 days on the drug, I don't feel particularly depressed, but my hopeless mood has been replaced by a kind of serene apathy, similar to that induced by SSRIs (as conundrum has stated). There have been moments where I get a little, mildly euphoric buzz and feel really connected to people/my surroundings, which is great, but I take it that's not what I should be looking for . .?
Unfortunately, it's that stimulating effect which is most beneficial for my motivation and concentration. I see some people taking 4-6 tabs and wonder if I may be underdosing (though obviously it's too early to tell), or if they're just chasing a certain effect?
and b) do you find that the anxiolytic effects build over time? My hypervigilance has completely died down, and like I say I feel really calm and serene, but unfortunately there has been no positive effect on my worrying and OCD-related intrusive thoughts. I'm not sure if you're prone to GAD or anxiety outside of your panic disorder, but do the benefits in that respect take time, as with SSRIs?
thanks :)
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 16, 2010, at 7:02:03
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
To make things even more confusing - when I tried sri drugs in the past year (fluoxetine and clomipramine) they actually improved the strength of my erections (though not sensation) where as on stablon I see no pro-sexual benefits whatsoever.
Posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:26:12
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
> Thanks for your response sukarno. A couple of questions, if you don't mind -
>
> a) What does the anti-depressant effect actually feel when it manifests? So far, after 4 days on the drug, I don't feel particularly depressed, but my hopeless mood has been replaced by a kind of serene apathy, similar to that induced by SSRIs (as conundrum has stated). There have been moments where I get a little, mildly euphoric buzz and feel really connected to people/my surroundings, which is great, but I take it that's not what I should be looking for . .?--
Hi! I'm glad you are getting some relief now. Unfortunately, in my experience, I only felt that adrenaline-like buzz or motivation in the beginning. In the long-term it is more like an anxiolytic and the antidepressant effect tended to poop out. I raised the dose and that helped my mood again for a long time but eventually I was up to 6 tablets/day.
I guess it causes some feeling of serene apathy. Things don't bother me as much as before. I felt though that Prozac was a lot worse and also affected my libido adversely whereas Stablon only slightly affects it (maybe a 10 or 15% reduction in libido in the long run vs Prozac's 90%+ reduction).
>
> Unfortunately, it's that stimulating effect which is most beneficial for my motivation and concentration. I see some people taking 4-6 tabs and wonder if I may be underdosing (though obviously it's too early to tell), or if they're just chasing a certain effect?
>---
I wonder if they are taking that much because they need that much to obtain an antidepressant effect or if they were on a lower dose and it worked, but then it pooped out so they had to keep raising it.
I found that I could get a good buzz on it in the long term (after being on it for a year). I could take 2 at once in the morning and feel a mild to moderate euphoria. I tried 3 once and that was more intense but it was so much different than any other drug. There was a mixed anxiolytic/stimulant effect. I felt laid back and so comfortable and the music sounded awesome..body felt numbish.. but I also felt stimulated. My pulse though was normal (70bpm) and that effect was short-lived.. perhaps 90 minutes tops. After that I felt like sleeping.
Some people abuse it for the stimulant effect and others abuse it for the anxiolytic effect. I think there's just a mixture of both at the same time. Probably it is calming down the glutamate receptors, lowering cortisol production and also increasing dopamine a bit at higher doses.
> and b) do you find that the anxiolytic effects build over time? My hypervigilance has completely died down, and like I say I feel really calm and serene, but unfortunately there has been no positive effect on my worrying and OCD-related intrusive thoughts. I'm not sure if you're prone to GAD or anxiety outside of your panic disorder, but do the benefits in that respect take time, as with SSRIs?
>
> thanks :)---
I found that the anxiolytic effects became more pronounced with time. It seems to be a better anxiolytic after years of taking it. If your depression is caused by anxiety though, I would think Stablon would help it. If depression is the primary problem I fear that you will have to increase the dose in the long run, but everyone is different.
There is a report in the literature that Stablon can exacerbate OCD. That's only one case report though, so I'm not sure if it is scientific. I think we need many more reports before we can say there is causation.
I think Stablon (with long-term use) gave me obsessive thoughts about sex and gambling. hehheh.. I suspect this is due to its effects on dopamine. I could control these thoughts, but casinos don't exist in Indonesia and gambling is illegal. It was also strange having a slightly lower libido, yet thinking more about sex.
The available evidence says that patients who abuse Stablon (or its cousin amineptine, which has a different mode of action) didn't do so until they were on it for at least a year. My psychiatrist said that only 10% end up psychologically dependent on it, so that's not so bad. Thinking positively, 90% don't find it to be habit-forming. I don't know where he got the 10% figure.. it could be arbitrary.
When Survector was pulled from the market there were 500 documented/reported cases of abuse. With Stablon there have only been 141. I'm sure the number for both drugs is higher as a lot of people don't report abuse or the need to keep escalating the dose.
The good news is that Stablon doesn't cause weight gain or compulsive eating or at least not that I know of. It also doesn't lower libido enough to cause people to quit taking it and is relatively easier to taper off relative to SSRIs.
The early reports about increasing the range of emotions was probably based on the activating effects obtained in the short term or on the assumption that Stablon is an SSRE, so because it must "act in the opposite way as SSRIs" it should not cause emotional blunting.
I think it does cause some emotional blunting in the long term and is relaxing, but definitely nowhere near as much as Prozac did to me.
Do you find that it is causing you emotional blunting just like that caused by SSRIs? Is it negatively affecting libido?
I remember Prozac zapping my libido by 95% in the first two weeks on it and that was just a low dose.
Good luck and keep us updated. I hope it works for you.
It's really too bad that amineptine isn't around (or you have to pay outrageous prices from a guy selling it online.. made in a private laboratory). That was supposed to be one of, if not the best for treatment-resistant depression and put libido through the roof.
:-)
Regards,
Paul
Posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:43:28
In reply to Re: tianeptine, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 16, 2010, at 7:02:03
I found some pro-sexual effects from Stablon when I would increase the dose, but not always. It was uncommon. I remember after increasing the dose, I woke up in the morning with a lot more interest, but when I tapered off (40 day taper) completely I felt my libido returning and was surprised as I hadn't realized that tianeptine was lowering it. I thought maybe because the antidepressant effect was pooping out in the long run which then caused libido to decrease. Depression can lower libido as can anxiety.
However, take one tablet of amineptine and go to bed.. then wake up with an erection and in the mood like never before. hahhah..
Posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:07:32
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 15, 2010, at 23:07:49
>There have been moments where I get a little, mildly euphoric buzz and feel really connected to people/my surroundings, which is great, but I take it that's not what I should be looking for . .?
Why not?
Beggars can't be choosers.
Posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:11:35
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:26:12
>I think Stablon (with long-term use) gave me obsessive thoughts about sex and gambling. hehheh.. I suspect this is due to its effects on dopamine. I could control these thoughts, but casinos don't exist in Indonesia and gambling is illegal. It was also strange having a slightly lower libido, yet thinking more about sex.
That sounds right.
I take it by libido you mean capacity?
Posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:14:18
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:43:28
>However, take one tablet of amineptine and go to bed.. then wake up with an erection and in the mood like never before. hahhah..
Bugger.
I can see why they banned it.
You don't want people to be undepressed and having sex without having to suffer side effects.
Posted by Brainbeard on November 17, 2010, at 6:15:36
In reply to Re: tianeptine » Conundrum, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 14, 2010, at 21:49:20
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 17, 2010, at 6:49:38
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 16, 2010, at 15:26:12
>
> Hi! I'm glad you are getting some relief now. >Unfortunately, in my experience, I only felt >that adrenaline-like buzz or motivation in the >beginning.Unfortunately, it seems that I spoke a little too soon :( The effects seem to be varying wildly from day-to-day. Yesterday, I felt great, but today that adrenaline-like stimulation is back. For me, it isn't motivating though - I feel like my skin is crawling with anxiety.
>
> There is a report in the literature that Stablon can exacerbate OCD. That's only one case >report though, so I'm not sure if it is >scientific. I think we need many more reports >before we can say there is causation.It's definitely exacerbating OCD in me, and even OC spectrum traits like ADD hyperfocus, e.g. when working on projects, I find it much harder to just let go and go do something else. I read a post on another board from one guy who wrote to a researcher who claimed that the drug should exacerbate OCD in the short-term but help it in the long-term.
I'm still a little confused about how the drug works . . so does the reuptake of serotonin cause the body's homeostatic mechanism to kick in? Is that while it might only help OCD in the long-term, i.e. once the body's compensated for the drug's action? I wonder how long that process would take, because to be honest, I don't think I could last months like this.
> Do you find that it is causing you emotional >blunting just like that caused by SSRIs? Is it >negatively affecting libido?
Yeah, it is causing a little emotional blunting, though strangely I've been able to cry again while watching movies, which I haven't been able to do for a couple of years (and I haven't been on any meds, aside from brief trials, during that period. . I've just been numb from depression).
Yeah, my libido's also down, though not the mental aspect, which is a pity, because I'm (too much information) a little obsessed with thinking about sex.
>
> I remember Prozac zapping my libido by 95% in the first two weeks on it and that was just a low dose.
>
> Good luck and keep us updated. I hope it works for you.
>:)
Posted by Conundrum on November 17, 2010, at 8:56:10
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by sigismund on November 17, 2010, at 0:14:18
> >However, take one tablet of amineptine and go to bed.. then wake up with an erection and in the mood like never before. hahhah..
>
> Bugger.
> I can see why they banned it.
> You don't want people to be undepressed and having sex without having to suffer side effects.And passing along their depression DNA into the gene pool
Posted by sukarno on November 17, 2010, at 14:13:29
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 17, 2010, at 6:49:38
I feel a headache for an hour or two after taking a dose. Do you get headaches too?
I looked up my old posts here about Stablon from 2005 and found that I experienced the adrenaline-like effects in the beginning. It went away for a day or two only to return again once more and finally died off 3 weeks into treatment. I never experienced adrenaline-like effects again as I continued with Stablon for another 5 years.
I suspect it is just a start-up side effect. I'm also on Xanax which helps to minimize the jitters and inner tension.
I felt so relaxed yesterday. I usually don't watch TV, but decided to sit back on the couch with the remote control and watch it for several hours until I fell asleep. hehheh.
My depression feels like it is in remission. I still haven't used the lightbox. I shudder to think how bad my depression would be right now if I hadn't been taking this medication. I also quit caffeine 5 to 7 days ago and usually that will send me into a severe depression but I feel okay.
Usually antidepressants take weeks to work, although some say Stablon works more quickly.
I certainly hope you feel better. You can cut the tablets in half and lower the dose as you feel anxious. I had to raise and lower the dose a lot back in 2005 for the first three weeks. After that it was smooth sailing though. I hope you do well on it.
Paul
Posted by morgan miller on November 19, 2010, at 19:13:24
In reply to [unsubscribing] (nm), posted by Brainbeard on November 17, 2010, at 6:15:36
Huh? Does this mean you are unsubscribing as a member of PB, brainbeard?
Posted by g_g_g_unit on November 19, 2010, at 20:19:59
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 17, 2010, at 14:13:29
> I feel a headache for an hour or two after taking a dose. Do you get headaches too?
I haven't had any headaches, no . .
>
> I looked up my old posts here about Stablon from 2005 and found that I experienced the adrenaline-like effects in the beginning. It went away for a day or two only to return again once more and finally died off 3 weeks into treatment. I never experienced adrenaline-like effects again as I continued with Stablon for another 5 years.
>Hey, when you say "adrenaline-like effect", does the sensation resemble, say, the stimulation you might get from coffee, or is it closer to panic-like anxiety?
The reason I ask is because for me it's closer to the latter, and the feeling has unfortunately been escalating over the course of my trial. Yesterday it became completely unbearable and I spent the day with my chest closed up, barely able to breathe, and feeling so fatigued that I couldn't even go for a jog.
I take it this might not be a typical reaction to Stablon, and I'm wondering if lowering cortisol might not be beneficial in my case. Maybe I'll try lowering the dose today, but I'm not sure I could last two more weeks like this; yesterday was frightening.
Posted by sukarno on November 19, 2010, at 22:14:35
In reply to Re: tianeptine » sukarno, posted by g_g_g_unit on November 19, 2010, at 20:19:59
> Hey, when you say "adrenaline-like effect", does the sensation resemble, say, the stimulation you might get from coffee, or is it closer to panic-like anxiety?
---
It feels like the fight-or-flight response. I was on a benzodiazepine at the time so that somewhat dampened the feeling, but I can imagine that if you are not on some sort of anxiolytic that Stablon could drive your anxiety through the roof for the first few weeks.
> The reason I ask is because for me it's closer to the latter, and the feeling has unfortunately been escalating over the course of my trial. Yesterday it became completely unbearable and I spent the day with my chest closed up, barely able to breathe, and feeling so fatigued that I couldn't even go for a jog.---
I've had the feeling that my breathing was worse when I increased the dose (and sometimes in the beginning when I first tried it). There's a side effect listed that says "respiratory discomfort". It helps asthma but seems to have some paradoxical reactions (it could be due to anxiety) in the beginning or when ramping up the dose.
> I take it this might not be a typical reaction to Stablon, and I'm wondering if lowering cortisol might not be beneficial in my case. Maybe I'll try lowering the dose today, but I'm not sure I could last two more weeks like this; yesterday was frightening.
I would lower the dose. In 2005 I lowered it to one tablet a day for a while and then gradually made it up to three tablets a day.
Do you think these are worse than the side effects you get when you begin SSRIs or about the same (or less)?
You might want to ask your doctor for some clonazepam (Klonopin / Rivotril) or another long-acting benzodiazepine for a few days to help you get through the anxious phase.
Stablon seems to make things worse before they get better, but when they got better I really felt good and there was no anxiety at all (for me anyway after 3 weeks).
I don't think I'd be able to start on Stablon without a benzodiazepine as co-medication for the first 1 to 2 weeks.
Some folks say it really makes them feel wired and anxious, but that effect is only temporary.
I did feel like I wanted to jump out of my skin for a few days and diazepam helped a lot (5mg tablet).Vistaril / Atarax (hydroxyzine) is also good for anxiety and can be taken with Stablon as far as I know and doctors will easily prescribe that as it isn't a controlled substance.
Hang in there. Stablon won't kill libido or cause massive weight gain at least. ;-) It's really worth it when the anxiolytic and antidepressant effects fully manifest themselves.
Take care!
Regards,
Paul
Posted by sukarno on November 19, 2010, at 22:16:34
In reply to Re: tianeptine » g_g_g_unit, posted by sukarno on November 19, 2010, at 22:14:35
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