![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 15:09:38
I've never been so tired and fatigued in my life. It started back in July. At first I thought it was due to some insomnia from the Adderall - but when I got that worked out it continued.
I've seen an endocrinologist who found my thyroid or TSH to be very low and have been taking 125mcg for about 2 months now. I was also found to have mild obstructive sleep apnea for which my doctor referred me to a pulmonologist who I have no seen yet. My Endo found out my Testosterone lvls where low so he started me on AndroGel which I have been taking for 5 days now.
I can't get enough sleep. I sleep 15-18 hours a day. I don't know what's wrong?
Recently - the past month or so - I've had terrible bouts of diarrhea sending me to the ER twice. My family doc said it was IBS-D -diarrhea and put m eon Lomotil twice a day.
I just feel physically sick -in my gut - and I'm wondering if it's my psch meds or that I might actually be sick with something.
I'm afraid to call my family doc about it because she's seen me like 4 times in the past month about this and I'm afraid she'll drop me as a patient for being so "mysteriously sick" all the time.. She did have some blood work done that showed my white blood cell count was high -but it didn't seem to be of major importance to her.
I don't know what to do.
Here's what I'm taking:
Adderall 20mg 3x daily
Klonopin 1mg 5x daily
Lexapro 10mg
Effexor XR 150mg
Seroquel 300mg
Synthroid 125mcg
Androgel 1%
Lomotil 5mg 2x- 3 x dailyI feel nauseated, my abdomen aches constantly, I'm tired all the time and very much fatigued. If it weren't for the Adderall I'd be in bed.
Any suggestions??
Thanks
Jerry
Posted by twinleaf on October 25, 2010, at 16:11:21
In reply to so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 15:09:38
An elevated white count should never be ignored. The most likely cause would be a bacterial infection - maybe an uncommon or hidden one. Do you have an Infectious Disease Specialist in your area that you could ask to see?
It certainly sounds as though you are doing a terrific job taking care of everything!
Posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 16:17:42
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » jerryTRD, posted by twinleaf on October 25, 2010, at 16:11:21
> An elevated white count should never be ignored. The most likely cause would be a bacterial infection - maybe an uncommon or hidden one. Do you have an Infectious Disease Specialist in your area that you could ask to see?
>
> It certainly sounds as though you are doing a terrific job taking care of everything!I don't know - but my doc did say to have a WBC test done again tomorrow. So, maybe then we'll find something out??
Posted by bleauberry on October 25, 2010, at 17:09:27
In reply to so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 15:09:38
1. Daily high dose refrigerated brand probiotics, at least 15 billion per day. This helps establish proper gut flora, which is likely desimated at this point. The symptoms tell the story.
2. Magnesium Malate (has to be malate) dosed to bowel tolerance, starting at 1/4 the recommended dose. (this particular mg produces energy, helps the gut, and displaces/chelates Aluminum which blocks many vital functions related to energy)
3. Vitamin C in the effervescent form only, such as EmergenC. Too many reasons to list.
4. Japanese Knotweed (called Resveratrol by Source Naturals). Trust me, lots of reasons for this one. It will cover a lot of bases, many you probably have not heard of or considered.
5. B complex by Thorne Research...it has two to three different forms of the important B's...that way if you are having a genetic or gut problem in converting one, the others are there to fill the need.
6. Thorne Research Pic-Minerals...The minerals themselves are important, but equally as important is the delivery molecule. In this brand, the delivery is specific to your systems. Picolinate for example is one of them.Not just any B complex or any mineral will work. You gotta have the right stuff. Very specific.
7. High potency Vitamin E with 3 different forms of E in it. Thorne is one company that does that.
8. Vitamin D at 5000iu to 10000iu per day.
With the gut problems you are having, your body is likely starved of crucial needs.
That would partially account for the fatigue. But not completely. There is something else going on. That's why the Japanese Knotweed. It covers just about all the bases I can think of.
None of the above are for treating symptoms...they are for treating what is causing the symptoms.
Given a few months on all of the above, it would not surprise me at all if you found you could cut your psych med doses in half or even eliminate some of them.
Also very important:
1. Limit coffee.
2. Avoid sugars of all kinds...refined, synthetic, fruit juices, potatoes, refined cereal, etc. When you do have sugars, they have to be taken with a good amount of fat (butter or meat fat) and protein.
3. Start shopping organic...you are in no condition to be ingesting trace amounts of pesticides, herbicides, hormones, and cow antibiotics.
4. If your plate isn't mostly raw or nearly raw veggies and an organic choice of meat, you are begging for the hell to continue.There are several likely causes of your symptoms. I could name off and explain in detail at least half a dozen. Too long. It doesn't matter which one(s) are actually involved...the above will hit them all.
As soon as you can cut back on the adderall, do so. I'm guessing about 2 weeks into it. Adderall might be the only thing keeping you going right now, but is actually making it all worse.
All of the meds you are taking can cause gut and immmune problems. That is why it is so absolutely crucial to treat your gut perfectly while on meds. That involves the above supplements and food choices.
> I've never been so tired and fatigued in my life. It started back in July. At first I thought it was due to some insomnia from the Adderall - but when I got that worked out it continued.
>
> I've seen an endocrinologist who found my thyroid or TSH to be very low and have been taking 125mcg for about 2 months now. I was also found to have mild obstructive sleep apnea for which my doctor referred me to a pulmonologist who I have no seen yet. My Endo found out my Testosterone lvls where low so he started me on AndroGel which I have been taking for 5 days now.
>
> I can't get enough sleep. I sleep 15-18 hours a day. I don't know what's wrong?
>
> Recently - the past month or so - I've had terrible bouts of diarrhea sending me to the ER twice. My family doc said it was IBS-D -diarrhea and put m eon Lomotil twice a day.
>
> I just feel physically sick -in my gut - and I'm wondering if it's my psch meds or that I might actually be sick with something.
>
> I'm afraid to call my family doc about it because she's seen me like 4 times in the past month about this and I'm afraid she'll drop me as a patient for being so "mysteriously sick" all the time.. She did have some blood work done that showed my white blood cell count was high -but it didn't seem to be of major importance to her.
>
> I don't know what to do.
>
> Here's what I'm taking:
>
> Adderall 20mg 3x daily
> Klonopin 1mg 5x daily
> Lexapro 10mg
> Effexor XR 150mg
> Seroquel 300mg
> Synthroid 125mcg
> Androgel 1%
> Lomotil 5mg 2x- 3 x daily
>
> I feel nauseated, my abdomen aches constantly, I'm tired all the time and very much fatigued. If it weren't for the Adderall I'd be in bed.
>
> Any suggestions??
>
> Thanks
> Jerry
>
>
Posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 17:29:53
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by bleauberry on October 25, 2010, at 17:09:27
> 1. Daily high dose refrigerated brand probiotics, at least 15 billion per day. This helps establish proper gut flora, which is likely desimated at this point. The symptoms tell the story.
> 2. Magnesium Malate (has to be malate) dosed to bowel tolerance, starting at 1/4 the recommended dose. (this particular mg produces energy, helps the gut, and displaces/chelates Aluminum which blocks many vital functions related to energy)
> 3. Vitamin C in the effervescent form only, such as EmergenC. Too many reasons to list.
> 4. Japanese Knotweed (called Resveratrol by Source Naturals). Trust me, lots of reasons for this one. It will cover a lot of bases, many you probably have not heard of or considered.
> 5. B complex by Thorne Research...it has two to three different forms of the important B's...that way if you are having a genetic or gut problem in converting one, the others are there to fill the need.
> 6. Thorne Research Pic-Minerals...The minerals themselves are important, but equally as important is the delivery molecule. In this brand, the delivery is specific to your systems. Picolinate for example is one of them.
>
> Not just any B complex or any mineral will work. You gotta have the right stuff. Very specific.
>
> 7. High potency Vitamin E with 3 different forms of E in it. Thorne is one company that does that.
>
> 8. Vitamin D at 5000iu to 10000iu per day.
>
> With the gut problems you are having, your body is likely starved of crucial needs.
>
> That would partially account for the fatigue. But not completely. There is something else going on. That's why the Japanese Knotweed. It covers just about all the bases I can think of.
>
> None of the above are for treating symptoms...they are for treating what is causing the symptoms.
>
> Given a few months on all of the above, it would not surprise me at all if you found you could cut your psych med doses in half or even eliminate some of them.
>
> Also very important:
> 1. Limit coffee.
> 2. Avoid sugars of all kinds...refined, synthetic, fruit juices, potatoes, refined cereal, etc. When you do have sugars, they have to be taken with a good amount of fat (butter or meat fat) and protein.
> 3. Start shopping organic...you are in no condition to be ingesting trace amounts of pesticides, herbicides, hormones, and cow antibiotics.
> 4. If your plate isn't mostly raw or nearly raw veggies and an organic choice of meat, you are begging for the hell to continue.
>
> There are several likely causes of your symptoms. I could name off and explain in detail at least half a dozen. Too long. It doesn't matter which one(s) are actually involved...the above will hit them all.
>
> As soon as you can cut back on the adderall, do so. I'm guessing about 2 weeks into it. Adderall might be the only thing keeping you going right now, but is actually making it all worse.
>
> All of the meds you are taking can cause gut and immmune problems. That is why it is so absolutely crucial to treat your gut perfectly while on meds. That involves the above supplements and food choices.
>
> > I've never been so tired and fatigued in my life. It started back in July. At first I thought it was due to some insomnia from the Adderall - but when I got that worked out it continued.
> >
> > I've seen an endocrinologist who found my thyroid or TSH to be very low and have been taking 125mcg for about 2 months now. I was also found to have mild obstructive sleep apnea for which my doctor referred me to a pulmonologist who I have no seen yet. My Endo found out my Testosterone lvls where low so he started me on AndroGel which I have been taking for 5 days now.
> >
> > I can't get enough sleep. I sleep 15-18 hours a day. I don't know what's wrong?
> >
> > Recently - the past month or so - I've had terrible bouts of diarrhea sending me to the ER twice. My family doc said it was IBS-D -diarrhea and put m eon Lomotil twice a day.
> >
> > I just feel physically sick -in my gut - and I'm wondering if it's my psch meds or that I might actually be sick with something.
> >
> > I'm afraid to call my family doc about it because she's seen me like 4 times in the past month about this and I'm afraid she'll drop me as a patient for being so "mysteriously sick" all the time.. She did have some blood work done that showed my white blood cell count was high -but it didn't seem to be of major importance to her.
> >
> > I don't know what to do.
> >
> > Here's what I'm taking:
> >
> > Adderall 20mg 3x daily
> > Klonopin 1mg 5x daily
> > Lexapro 10mg
> > Effexor XR 150mg
> > Seroquel 300mg
> > Synthroid 125mcg
> > Androgel 1%
> > Lomotil 5mg 2x- 3 x daily
> >
> > I feel nauseated, my abdomen aches constantly, I'm tired all the time and very much fatigued. If it weren't for the Adderall I'd be in bed.
> >
> > Any suggestions??
> >
> > Thanks
> > Jerry
> >
> >
>
>WOW! You know your stuff!! I've been taking a multi-vitamin along with magnesium glycinate + some probiotics but only for a couple of days now.
What I'm wondering is I've been on sooo many combinations of meds before - why NOW all the sudden am I having such problems with my gut? diarrhea? fatigue?
And btw- I am allergic to soy and have an anaphylactic reaction to nuts - so if anything above contain either of those please let me know.
Thanks! And I'll start trying it out! Seems like a lot - but heck....
Jerry
Oh P.S. - my diet is horrible. I eat FiberOne fiber bars which I think make everything worse and I eat A LOT of bread - I'm addicted to bread!!!!!!!!
Posted by Phillipa on October 25, 2010, at 19:50:32
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » bleauberry, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 17:29:53
After you rule out an infection or other condition have some allergie testing done could be gluten intolerance. Phillipa
Posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 21:52:55
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » jerryTRD, posted by Phillipa on October 25, 2010, at 19:50:32
> After you rule out an infection or other condition have some allergie testing done could be gluten intolerance. Phillipa
That's a good idea - but I'm so afraid of calling my family doc because I've been in to see her about this like 4 times in the past month - that's she'll start thinking I"m a hypochondriac or something. Seriously.
I'm going crazy - I started having panic attacks this evening because of how I feel and how I think my doctor will react - either I'm a hypochondriac or it's my 'depression."
I don't know what to do????
Posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 21:54:11
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by bleauberry on October 25, 2010, at 17:09:27
> 1. Daily high dose refrigerated brand probiotics, at least 15 billion per day. This helps establish proper gut flora, which is likely desimated at this point. The symptoms tell the story.
> 2. Magnesium Malate (has to be malate) dosed to bowel tolerance, starting at 1/4 the recommended dose. (this particular mg produces energy, helps the gut, and displaces/chelates Aluminum which blocks many vital functions related to energy)
> 3. Vitamin C in the effervescent form only, such as EmergenC. Too many reasons to list.
> 4. Japanese Knotweed (called Resveratrol by Source Naturals). Trust me, lots of reasons for this one. It will cover a lot of bases, many you probably have not heard of or considered.
> 5. B complex by Thorne Research...it has two to three different forms of the important B's...that way if you are having a genetic or gut problem in converting one, the others are there to fill the need.
> 6. Thorne Research Pic-Minerals...The minerals themselves are important, but equally as important is the delivery molecule. In this brand, the delivery is specific to your systems. Picolinate for example is one of them.
>
> Not just any B complex or any mineral will work. You gotta have the right stuff. Very specific.
>
> 7. High potency Vitamin E with 3 different forms of E in it. Thorne is one company that does that.
>
> 8. Vitamin D at 5000iu to 10000iu per day.
>
> With the gut problems you are having, your body is likely starved of crucial needs.
>
> That would partially account for the fatigue. But not completely. There is something else going on. That's why the Japanese Knotweed. It covers just about all the bases I can think of.
>
> None of the above are for treating symptoms...they are for treating what is causing the symptoms.
>
> Given a few months on all of the above, it would not surprise me at all if you found you could cut your psych med doses in half or even eliminate some of them.
>
> Also very important:
> 1. Limit coffee.
> 2. Avoid sugars of all kinds...refined, synthetic, fruit juices, potatoes, refined cereal, etc. When you do have sugars, they have to be taken with a good amount of fat (butter or meat fat) and protein.
> 3. Start shopping organic...you are in no condition to be ingesting trace amounts of pesticides, herbicides, hormones, and cow antibiotics.
> 4. If your plate isn't mostly raw or nearly raw veggies and an organic choice of meat, you are begging for the hell to continue.
>
> There are several likely causes of your symptoms. I could name off and explain in detail at least half a dozen. Too long. It doesn't matter which one(s) are actually involved...the above will hit them all.
>
> As soon as you can cut back on the adderall, do so. I'm guessing about 2 weeks into it. Adderall might be the only thing keeping you going right now, but is actually making it all worse.
>
> All of the meds you are taking can cause gut and immmune problems. That is why it is so absolutely crucial to treat your gut perfectly while on meds. That involves the above supplements and food choices.
>
> > I've never been so tired and fatigued in my life. It started back in July. At first I thought it was due to some insomnia from the Adderall - but when I got that worked out it continued.
> >
> > I've seen an endocrinologist who found my thyroid or TSH to be very low and have been taking 125mcg for about 2 months now. I was also found to have mild obstructive sleep apnea for which my doctor referred me to a pulmonologist who I have no seen yet. My Endo found out my Testosterone lvls where low so he started me on AndroGel which I have been taking for 5 days now.
> >
> > I can't get enough sleep. I sleep 15-18 hours a day. I don't know what's wrong?
> >
> > Recently - the past month or so - I've had terrible bouts of diarrhea sending me to the ER twice. My family doc said it was IBS-D -diarrhea and put m eon Lomotil twice a day.
> >
> > I just feel physically sick -in my gut - and I'm wondering if it's my psch meds or that I might actually be sick with something.
> >
> > I'm afraid to call my family doc about it because she's seen me like 4 times in the past month about this and I'm afraid she'll drop me as a patient for being so "mysteriously sick" all the time.. She did have some blood work done that showed my white blood cell count was high -but it didn't seem to be of major importance to her.
> >
> > I don't know what to do.
> >
> > Here's what I'm taking:
> >
> > Adderall 20mg 3x daily
> > Klonopin 1mg 5x daily
> > Lexapro 10mg
> > Effexor XR 150mg
> > Seroquel 300mg
> > Synthroid 125mcg
> > Androgel 1%
> > Lomotil 5mg 2x- 3 x daily
> >
> > I feel nauseated, my abdomen aches constantly, I'm tired all the time and very much fatigued. If it weren't for the Adderall I'd be in bed.
> >
> > Any suggestions??
> >
> > Thanks
> > Jerry
> >
> >
>
>bleauberry-
I don't know if I can afford all these supplements - is there a poor man's version???
Posted by Hombre on October 25, 2010, at 22:44:55
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » bleauberry, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 21:54:11
You might want to consider taking some tonic herbs/adaptogens to help your body to produce energy. Stimulants and other medications don't actually produce energy. They can, over time, weaken the body's ability to produce energy.
The diarrhea suggests weak digestive function. Ginseng, codonopsis, white atractylodes, poria, licorice, ginger, red dates, and other herbs can be used to strengthen your digestion and help you with energy. To make it easy, just take tablets or teapills in a premade formula such as:
Shen Ling Bai Zhi Wan (the name just refers to several of the herbs contained in it e.g. ginseng = ren shen -> shen, poria = fu ling -> ling)
http://www.google.com/search?btnG=Google+Search&q=shen+ling+bai+zhu+wan
I've taken this to stop diarrhea that was not caused by food or bugs. It was caused by extreme overexertion and exhaustion. It also boosts energy, but given that your body is in a weak state, it could take some time to heal completely.
Glutamine, taken at a dose of 4g or above, helps to heal the gut lining.
Posted by linkadge on October 26, 2010, at 7:34:12
In reply to so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 15:09:38
Bottom line: You're on too many medications! You're probably metabolically.....not good, very not good. I wouldn't be suprised if there aren't a whole load of other hormones out of whack too.
With all the antidepressants and the klonazepam, your body probably can't get any form of restorative sleep.
**Consolidate your medications:
- reduce lexapro to 5mg or less?
- half the seroquel or get off?
- replace seroquel and effexor with low dose
amitriptyline?
- or, better yet, replace effexor and seroquel with amoxapine (if some dopamine antagonism is desired).How about just adderall, amoxapine, lexapro?
As for the anticonvulsants, if you want to keep the clonazepam get off the lamortrigne (lamotrigine will screw your sleep up - and the antidepressant effect has probably long since pooped out for you). If the lamotrigine is providing some AD effect, then replace lamotrigine and clonazepam with say xanax.So, say lexapro, amoxapine, xanax, and adderall.
Also, reassess your diet, and perhaps do a course of night of sleep deprivation.
Bottom line is that once you get above a certain number of meds, you just gum the metabolism up, and you start to feel worse.
Linkadge
Posted by floatingbridge on October 26, 2010, at 11:59:59
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » Phillipa, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 21:52:55
Jerry, do I understand correctly that the abdominal pain started just after beginning adderall?
And when did the fatigue start? Before the adderall? Now it's worse?
Good luck today--hope you find something out.
Posted by jerryTRD on October 26, 2010, at 12:44:42
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by linkadge on October 26, 2010, at 7:34:12
> Bottom line: You're on too many medications! You're probably metabolically.....not good, very not good. I wouldn't be suprised if there aren't a whole load of other hormones out of whack too.
>
> With all the antidepressants and the klonazepam, your body probably can't get any form of restorative sleep.
>
> **Consolidate your medications:
>
> - reduce lexapro to 5mg or less?
> - half the seroquel or get off?
> - replace seroquel and effexor with low dose
> amitriptyline?
> - or, better yet, replace effexor and seroquel with amoxapine (if some dopamine antagonism is desired).
>
> How about just adderall, amoxapine, lexapro?
> As for the anticonvulsants, if you want to keep the clonazepam get off the lamortrigne (lamotrigine will screw your sleep up - and the antidepressant effect has probably long since pooped out for you). If the lamotrigine is providing some AD effect, then replace lamotrigine and clonazepam with say xanax.
>
> So, say lexapro, amoxapine, xanax, and adderall.
>
> Also, reassess your diet, and perhaps do a course of night of sleep deprivation.
>
> Bottom line is that once you get above a certain number of meds, you just gum the metabolism up, and you start to feel worse.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>Hi LInk - thanks for replying
I agree I'm on too many medications. I'm all for your plan but here's the deal - I need something sedating at night and I need something for anxiety.
I also think you have mistaken lamotil (for diarrhea) for lamotrigine. I'm not on lamotrigine.
But back to the subject - here's why I'm on the meds I'm on:
Effexor: - had good success with it in the past but isn't helping this time around. Doc switched to 10mg Lexapro and cut the Effexor down to 150mg to reduce any withdrawal until I see him next
Lexapro - has helped in the past with depression and anxiety but only to a moderate degree. Seems to work the best out of all the SSRIs
Adderall - helps tremendously with my social functioning, motivation, concentration and focus. Also helps with depression.
Seroquel - the only thing powerful enough to get me to sleep at night. Problem is once I'm asleep I tend to sleep for days at a time on this stuff. I would GLADLY go off of it if I knew there was something else out there that could help.
Klonopin - for anxiety and panic but I believe I've built up a tolerance to it. When I was seeing doctors at the U of Minnesota they would routinely switch my benzo around to get past any tolerance. So, say 6 months I'd be on Klonopin and 6 months I'd be on Ativan, etc or Xanax. I would GLADLY switch to either Ativan or Xanax.
Ambien - to be discontinued - not much help at all for sleep -grown to much of a tolerance.
Synthroid - hypothyroidism
Lamotil - IBS-D (diarrea)
AndroGel - low Testosterone
Here's my ideal concoction:Basic SSRI
Adderall
Benzo
Perhaps a tricyclic that will help augment the combo and also help with sleep (amitriptyline does NOT make me sleepy).So like you said -
Lexapro
Adderall
Ativan?
AmoxapineHere's what's happening now:
Mood is ok except is now being affected by physical symptoms including ongoing diarrhea, nausea, fatigue.I take my Adderall IR at 8am, Noon and 2:30-3pm. And it helps tremendously - I wouldn't be up writing this if it didn't. However, after all these years of being on it - it seems to be acting longer than usual - thus I'm still having stimulation in the evening -sometimes up until 3am and I don't know why? Before I've been able to take Adderall and take a nap if I wanted too. Now it's causing insomnia - which leads me to sleep in the next day and screw up my med cycle and sleep patterns.
But I want to keep the Adderall - too many benefits to ignore.
I just don't know what's going on here. People have posted they think I'm exhausted (which I do feel as though I am), am needing various supplements for digestive health, etc etc - but I don't know how to talk to my family doctor or my pdoc about all this.
I really need some help. My day to day functioning is falling rapidly.
Any further advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Jerry
Posted by jerryTRD on October 26, 2010, at 12:47:53
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » jerryTRD, posted by floatingbridge on October 26, 2010, at 11:59:59
> Jerry, do I understand correctly that the abdominal pain started just after beginning adderall?
>
> And when did the fatigue start? Before the adderall? Now it's worse?
>
> Good luck today--hope you find something out.The abdominal pain/diarrhea started about a month after I started back on the Adderall. The fatigue slowly accumulated once I began having the abdominal distress.
I do think the Adderall is exacerbating it a little but I've taken 3-5 day holidays without it and I'm still having issues.
Actually now that I think of it the fatigue started when I started the Synthroid.
Posted by bleauberry on October 26, 2010, at 17:13:18
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » bleauberry, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 17:29:53
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> WOW! You know your stuff!! I've been taking a multi-vitamin along with magnesium glycinate + some probiotics but only for a couple of days now.
>
> What I'm wondering is I've been on sooo many combinations of meds before - why NOW all the sudden am I having such problems with my gut? diarrhea? fatigue?
>
> And btw- I am allergic to soy and have an anaphylactic reaction to nuts - so if anything above contain either of those please let me know.
>
> Thanks! And I'll start trying it out! Seems like a lot - but heck....
>
> Jerry
>
> Oh P.S. - my diet is horrible. I eat FiberOne fiber bars which I think make everything worse and I eat A LOT of bread - I'm addicted to bread!!!!!!!!A multivitamin is a good start but not nearly enough. Nearly all easily avialable vitamins have either poorly absorbed ingredients or forms of the vitamins that require your body to convert them to the usable forms...which commonly might not be happening in a person having symptoms or disease.
That's why the need for specific vitamins like the ones I mentioned. Thorne Research is usually only available in a doctor's office, but I noticed the other day there are sources on the web so you can buy them directly without a doc. The B-Complex #12, Ultimate E, and the others I mentioned, all crucial.
Probiotics need to be a good brand that is sold refrigerated and preferably guarantees the potency on the bottle up to the expiration date....most guarantee the potency at the time of manufacture, which is useless. You will likely need high doses for a short time, like 50 billion per day for a couple weeks, followed by an aggressive maintenance dose in the 15billion range.
Diet is so important. You will not heal without close attention to what you put in the grocery cart.
They say the worst offending foods are the ones we crave the most. It's a lengthy explanation, but makes a lot of sense. It's basically an addiction to the foul allergic toxic reactions to the food that have an affinity for the opioid receptors....and thus the addiction, despite feeling like crap. And as the addiction is broken, you feel even more like crap for a while. It's called a healing crisis. With the right diet, you'll also be killing a lot of fungi such as candida, and their death toxins will feel like crap. That's called a Herxheimer reaction.
If you are allergic to soy and nuts, you are likely allergic to more than you know. The most common ones are gluten (wheat, rye, barley, barley malt, oats unless gluten free oats), dairy (butter is usually ok and cream in coffee is usually ok), citrus and citrus juices, tomatoes. Food allergies are basically large molecules of undigested food getting through the intestinal wall via damaged walls directly into the blood stream, at which time your immune system freaks out. The most common resulting symptoms are debilitating fatigue, brain fog, and psychiatric.
If it is more than an intolerance or allergy, such as Celiac Disease, then the offending food must be strictly avoided for the rest of your life.
Without much doubt, I would highly suspect gluten in your case. That's usually the top one evident in all kinds of gut problems and psychiatric problems. The toxic chemicals caused by it are just about as powerful as poisons. You said you feel "sick". I told my doc, "I can't explain it, I just feel kinda poisoned?" A lab test confirmed extremely high gliaden antibodies. There should not be any antibodies. The easiest cheapest way though is to do food rotation tests, or to just simply go strictly healthy stuff and not take any chances.
For meds, there are two I would consider in your case. One is Diflucan 200mg once every three days for about 2 weeks. This is to knock down Candida to manageable levels. Follow that with a maintenance rotation of some of the common anti-fungal herbs all over the web. Caprylic Acid is one. OTC and cheap. The best most potent against all kinds of gut invaders...fungi, bacteria, yeast, parasites, is raw garlic. Either raw cloves, one to three per day, or take the garlic pills (they must be the non-deodorized ones, preferably ones with enteric coating). I get a good one at Whole Foods Market. Odor becomes a problem after 3 days with me, so I do it once every three days and it keeps things in check, but I did a lot of Diflucan prior to that.
The other med is LDN. Research on the LDN home page. This is a no brainer for anyone and everyone with either psychiatric problems or gut problems or infections or mystery diseases (lyme, colitis, chrones, lupus, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, etc). LDN at a mere 1.5mg dramatically improved my energy, reduced allergies, and improved mood at about the two week mark. It has to be made by a compounding pharrmacy since the smallest pill is 50mg. The is a wonder drug for so many things. It is not a cure, but probably about 80%-90% of people who try it stay with it because of the benefits they feel on it. With me, the primary benefits include much greater energy and much less brain fog.
I mentioned Japanese Knotwood. Geez, where to start. Anti-bacterial including Lyme, antifungal including Candida, protects brain neurons from toxins, reduces Herxheimer reactions, modulates a confused immune system, analgesic, calming to the mind yet mildly energizing to the body. Not to mention the scientific benefits of the high amounts of Resveratrol naturally found in it. Centuries of use as antimalarial and antileprosy, indicating its effectiveness against not just bacteria in general, but specifically spirochetes such as Lyme. Source Naturals is the one to buy. It's called Resveratrol, but is 100% Japanese Knotweed. This one has gained fame and success since the incredible research done by Stephan Buhner in his book Healing Lyme.
So anyway, between this post and the prior one, you know what has to be done. The supplements and meds are easy enough. The diet change is hard. I've done it, I know. Funny though, they say taste buds change. That is true. I now actually prefer my organic romaine leaves wrapped around organic meat slices more than the donuts I used to eat. Actually, the donuts kind of scare me now and don't taste as good as they used to.
Gluten free is not that hard. Whole Foods has tons of stuff. Rice Chex is gluten free! So is Cocoa Pebbles. (too much sugar in both though, Candida love that). There is a bread called Millet Zuchinni bread in the frozen section. Believe me, I've tried them all, most suck. This one is really good. Especially toasted, you can't tell the difference from wheat bread. They make gluten free pastas of rice, quinoa, corn, and soy (don't do that one :-))
Many canned and jar goods in WalMart specify right on the container they are gluten free.PHd Andrew Cutler of the book Amalgam Illness recommends wide spectrum digestive enzymes with each eating to reduce or eliminate food allergies/intolerances. The enzymes break down the food molecules before they have a chance to seep into your blood stream undigested. I've tried them. They do work.
We are what we eat. Simple as that. And all health depends on what happens in the gut. Simple as that. All healing begins there. Amazing cures thought unattainable occur there. Many disease and symptoms originate there.
Wishing you the best! I basically summed up about 1000 hours of research, years of personal experience, and over a dozen specialty books. Use it and feel better.
Posted by bleauberry on October 26, 2010, at 17:19:55
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » bleauberry, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 21:54:11
>
> bleauberry-
>
> I don't know if I can afford all these supplements - is there a poor man's version???
>
>They aren't actually very much. The hard part is making the initial purchase. Yeah, that's probably in about the $150-$200 range.
Can you afford NOT to?
Can you afford to keep paying a doctor and stay sick?
When someone really wants to get better, they find ways to get what they need. I'm poor, as most musicians are. I carefully plan my budget because I know firsthand how important the right choices are. I wish I could go back and get a refund on my backpack full of psych meds, refund on probably $30,000 of psychiatrists and ECT, refund on a stay in the psych ward, and all that....a handful of supplements would have done a far better job....had I known at the time.
Posted by linkadge on October 26, 2010, at 17:32:25
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » floatingbridge, posted by jerryTRD on October 26, 2010, at 12:47:53
Yeah, sorry. I thought lamotil was a US generic lamotrigine.
The benzodiazapines will interupt restorative sleep. That being said, getting off them (for some people) results in little / no sleep (anxiety).
Have you ever tried doxapin or trimipramine?
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on October 26, 2010, at 22:22:34
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by bleauberry on October 25, 2010, at 17:09:27
>3. Vitamin C in the effervescent form only, such as EmergenC. Too many reasons to list.
I'm interested in why. Could you at least list the main reasons for this?
>8. Vitamin D at 5000iu to 10000iu per day.
Isn't this a bit high without know where one's vitamin D levels are at? I take 2000 iu and my levels were at 50 ng/ml, a level I would not want to go any higher than. Anyone taking 5000 to 10000 iu vitamin D a day should be getting their level tested a few times a year. We just don't know yet exactly what the optimal level of vitamin D is. I do know that having too high vitamin D levels over a long period of time can potentially cause some problems. Carlson Solar D softgels is the best vitamin D supplement, IMO. Whatever you take, make sure it is vitamin D3 and make sure it is an oil based softgel. Vitamin D3 is cheap as dirt, even the Carlson's one.
Posted by morgan miller on October 26, 2010, at 22:39:45
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by bleauberry on October 26, 2010, at 17:13:18
>I mentioned Japanese Knotwood. Geez, where to start. Anti-bacterial including Lyme, antifungal including Candida, protects brain neurons from toxins, reduces Herxheimer reactions, modulates a confused immune system, analgesic, calming to the mind yet mildly energizing to the body. Not to mention the scientific benefits of the high amounts of Resveratrol naturally found in it. Centuries of use as antimalarial and antileprosy, indicating its effectiveness against not just bacteria in general, but specifically spirochetes such as Lyme. Source Naturals is the one to buy. It's called Resveratrol, but is 100% Japanese Knotweed. This one has gained fame and success since the incredible research done by Stephan Buhner in his book Healing Lyme.
I wonder how much of these benefits come from resveratrol? I know the neuroprotection does. Here is another good japanese knotweed product by Solaray, one of the best supplement companies out there. This product also has grape skin extract, grape seed extract, and red wine extract.
Posted by Conundrum on October 27, 2010, at 0:18:35
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by bleauberry on October 26, 2010, at 17:13:18
Bleauberry,
You do realize that everything you are saying to people, you have not back up with data You deny that hard data is necessary. You just... know things. I've been on a low carb, one piece of 12 grain bread a day, organic raw meat and veggie diet before, and I can't say it helped a whole lot, I was still tired.
You have an automatic defense to any detractors by saying that testing for infections yields false negatives. Its 2010 freakin 10, I think scientists and doctors could find bacteria if they are there. Just where does all your knowledge come from? I've never seen you cite anything. I've never seen any evidence to show the things you are talking about have helped anyone. In fact you said it hasn't helped you. I'd like to see you back up some of these claims you have made. I'd love to see the throngs of people healed from depression by antibiotics and carb free diets. Its a secret only a few naturopaths know about right?
I know there are powers at be, I'm not naive. But if antibiotics cured depression and CFS we'd be hearing about it.
I've never heard you once mention genetic factors, just "clogged receptors" I want to see some evidence that receptors get clogged by toxins. You know there are genetic mutations, things go wrong, some people get 6 fingers, some get depression. Is it really that complicated.
I know people who have had REAL bacterial infections, which were caused by strong antibiotics. They had to take more antibiotics to kill the bad bacteria, but guess what? It went back to normal, with no extreme diets. So if someone who was overrun with bacteria and was literally making them ill just takes a course of antibiotics and feels better, why does someone need to go on some ridiculous diet, because they are tired. Also you shouldn't be recommending antibiotics, since they can ACTUALLY hurt gut flora and cause damage.
And whats the deal with milnacipran. I've read nothing but fairly bad reviews of savella, and you make it sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But like I said, you'll just say its there. And since there is now way to take a microscope to every piece of flesh on ones body, its easy to breed fear about bacteria. Its just getting old. I'd be open minded if you have something to back up these claims of clogged receptors causing depression.
Posted by Phillipa on October 27, 2010, at 18:51:59
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » bleauberry, posted by Conundrum on October 27, 2010, at 0:18:35
I seriously did have chronic lymes disease. On a course of biaxin xl for three months on and off for two years and yes IGG still elevated and always will be according to infection control doctor and also it's been seven years that I've had no taste and smell and infection control doc said the antibiotics did it. Yes MRSA and other staph infections diagnosed with blood tests and watching the CBC's and shifts of them diagnose. Some illnesses as totally antitbiotic resistant now because we have taken to many for too many years and the bacteria are resistant to the current antibiotics. I'd love to know that an antibiotic will still work for me. Docs don't give them out like candy anymore. Anyway so I have a positive titer of IGG for lymes doesn't mean it's active. Phillipa so I agree with you.
Posted by creepy on October 28, 2010, at 14:41:23
In reply to so tired and fatigued even on Adderall, posted by jerryTRD on October 25, 2010, at 15:09:38
wow you sound a lot like me. I have PTSD which has been shown to have some endocrine and HPA axis changes associated with it, so Im guessing thats what caused the fatigue. It hit me like a ton of bricks about 3 months ago. No med changes, no life changing events, nothing at all. Ive been barely hanging on with desipramine and adderall.
My endocrinologist found nothing. My pdoc wanted to put me on cymbalta, but I stopped celexa and did not want to take another serotonergic drug.
I had fatigue and body pain for about 3 months in total. I started to see an EMDR therapist and after the second visit I woke up the next day and the fatigue was almost gone. it was like I switched from tired and depressed to edgy and wired. I do not believe it is hypomania, more like a sudden relief of fatigue. Im backing off on some of my meds now to even things out a little.
Point is, with depression and anxiety resulting from trauma, you can certainly have physical symptoms. Fatigue and pain are some common ones.
If you are getting no results with medication I would certainly try therapy of some sort.
In my case I think this reaction was either related to transference or a perceived threat to some repressive force. I really dont know.. but it was a major change so I know im headed in the right direction.
Posted by bleauberry on October 29, 2010, at 22:23:17
In reply to Re: so tired and fatigued even on Adderall » bleauberry, posted by Conundrum on October 27, 2010, at 0:18:35
I'm really sorry you are feeling the way you are.
I'm sorry to say, this post is not one I will respond to, except to mention that everything in it is baseless, misguided, and significantly malinformed. It reminds me of my own way of thinking at a particular stage of my life. It wasn't a healthy attitude for me and did absolutely nothing to further my recovery. I wish things in the medical field were as hard core sure as you and I wish, but they aren't even close. The greatest success stories in all of life including medicine began with open minds.
Like I said, been there done that, so I understand the skepticism and bitterness. I experienced that too in much the same words as you.
I am happy to share and to answer all of the questions and issues of anything I say on this site with anyone eager to learn more in their quest for escaping the seemingly endless hopeless dark tunnel. It is impossible to help someone until they are ready. I learned that the hard way myself and I wish it different for you.
> Bleauberry,
>
> You do realize that everything you are saying to people, you have not back up with data You deny that hard data is necessary. You just... know things. I've been on a low carb, one piece of 12 grain bread a day, organic raw meat and veggie diet before, and I can't say it helped a whole lot, I was still tired.
>
> You have an automatic defense to any detractors by saying that testing for infections yields false negatives. Its 2010 freakin 10, I think scientists and doctors could find bacteria if they are there. Just where does all your knowledge come from? I've never seen you cite anything. I've never seen any evidence to show the things you are talking about have helped anyone. In fact you said it hasn't helped you. I'd like to see you back up some of these claims you have made. I'd love to see the throngs of people healed from depression by antibiotics and carb free diets. Its a secret only a few naturopaths know about right?
>
> I know there are powers at be, I'm not naive. But if antibiotics cured depression and CFS we'd be hearing about it.
>
> I've never heard you once mention genetic factors, just "clogged receptors" I want to see some evidence that receptors get clogged by toxins. You know there are genetic mutations, things go wrong, some people get 6 fingers, some get depression. Is it really that complicated.
>
> I know people who have had REAL bacterial infections, which were caused by strong antibiotics. They had to take more antibiotics to kill the bad bacteria, but guess what? It went back to normal, with no extreme diets. So if someone who was overrun with bacteria and was literally making them ill just takes a course of antibiotics and feels better, why does someone need to go on some ridiculous diet, because they are tired. Also you shouldn't be recommending antibiotics, since they can ACTUALLY hurt gut flora and cause damage.
>
> And whats the deal with milnacipran. I've read nothing but fairly bad reviews of savella, and you make it sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread.
>
> But like I said, you'll just say its there. And since there is now way to take a microscope to every piece of flesh on ones body, its easy to breed fear about bacteria. Its just getting old. I'd be open minded if you have something to back up these claims of clogged receptors causing depression.
>
This is the end of the thread.
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