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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 57 to 81 of 95. Go back in thread:
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 19:40:28
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by huxley on September 23, 2010, at 19:28:30
Huxley, I can only speak from my own experience. I can't say if my withdrawal was better or worse than your own. I do know that the 1st time I went off a drug I was blown away by how horrible I felt--both physically and emotionally. I called the doc and he had little to say--he sounded like I was the 1st patient with side effects! And so, I researched and found that my symptoms were normal. Luckily, they did go away and so I can't respond to your comment re: years of withdrawal effects. I do think the psych community is a bit irresponsible in discussing the probable withdrawal effects though. Maybe they don't want to deter their patients from pursuing a medical regime? When getting off of some of the AD's that I have tried, I have felt crazier than I ever did before ever taking anything. However, my experiences have never been so awful that I have regetted my choice to take the drug(s).
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:00:09
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by huxley on September 23, 2010, at 18:36:30
Hi Huxley.
> You seem to be pretty switched on and have a good insight into the field of psychiatry.
Not nearly enough to speak intelligently about psychiatry as a whole.
> Maybe you can help me out here.
> Why do a large majority of doctors deny that there is withdrawal from medications. Even when the evidence is staring them right in the face.It wasn't my intention to debate the competency of psychiatry. I was just curious what people mean when they say that a pill won't do everything.
> Also you mentioned in an earlier post that they can see the damage to the brain from depression through brain scans.
Yup.
> Is this a new development?
No. As early as 1992, PET scans revealed differences in brain activity between those affected by depression (MDD and BD) and healthy volunteers.
> Can they take an image of 10 peoples brains, 5 who have depression and 5 who don't and identify the ones with depression?
Yes.
> I thought the signs of depression they could identify were not consistant and contradicted others findings.
There is debate regarding some details. There is less so regarding the existence of phenotypic differences.
> I thought that it was a pretty fledgling science and nothing conclusive had come out of it yet.
Fledgling, perhaps. Nothing conclusive? I disagree. I guess it is a matter of perspective. The most important perspective to me is that I was born much too early. This is probably true of most of the people who post here. I have been watching the evolution of biological psychiatry since 1982. There has been a relative explosion in data, but not sufficient understanding as to how all the pieces of the puzzle fit.
What will a pill do?
What will a pill not do?
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:05:36
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » huxley, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:00:09
A pill will not do the work of living for you. A pill will only act as an assist--you will need to pick up the slack.
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:27:19
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 19:21:27
Hi Olivia
> They often times consider it a magic bullet--
When I was responsive to antidepressants and before I was inadvertantly mistreated, pills were absolute magic for me. When I respond, it feels like the whole world changes and that I become more functional in it. My perceptions change. My thoughts become clearer, more energetic, more efficient, and less negative.
> a utopia that only requires one to swallow a pill.
I believe that drugs, when they work, facilitate and allow one to build their own utopia, or at least make the most of what they have available to actualize with. This is what the pills won't do: They won't build a life for someone who has none. That's work that anyone must do for themselves, whether an MI is present or not. Psychotherapy can serve many purposes to help one to recover from depression, including attending to those elements of an individual's psyche that may contribute to its precipitation and persistence.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:34:41
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:05:36
> A pill will not do the work of living for you.
We are obviously in agreement here.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:47:36
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:27:19
"before I was inadvertantly mistreated"
Yes, we do agree--minus this point...how were you mistreated? I will need to respond to you tomorrow as it is very late here and I need some sleep. Take care:)
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:56:35
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:47:36
> "before I was inadvertantly mistreated"
>
>
> Yes, we do agree--minus this point...how were you mistreated? I will need to respond to you tomorrow as it is very late here and I need some sleep. Take care:)"Mistreated" may not have been the best choice of words. I just can't come up with a better one right now.
Long story. 20 years ago, doctors made treatment decisions that I believe led to a more treatment resistant depression. Of course, they thought that they were doing the right thing according to the treatment protocols popular at the time.
- Scott
Posted by Jeroen on September 24, 2010, at 8:56:28
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:56:35
yes mi brain is damaged from the lamictal,
cognitive, as well as a manic psychosis
Posted by olivia12 on September 24, 2010, at 18:39:01
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:56:35
Can you be more specific, Scott? What did they do that messed with your chemistry? How awful to be dealing with MI at such a young age. If we were talking present day, I would not have said that, but 20 years ago, kids were more rarely treated with meds. So, what happened?
Posted by olivia12 on September 24, 2010, at 21:06:08
In reply to Lou's request-pstralmahnn, posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2010, at 8:57:53
Lou, you still confound me. Despite your explanations, why do you post in the same manner every time? No disrespect meant, but I do not get your references to strange videos. You seem like a pretty well-read guy and so, what?
Posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 24, 2010, at 18:39:01
> Can you be more specific, Scott? What did they do that messed with your chemistry?
I had become manic on Nardil. So, the Nardil was removed and both Thorazine and Prolixen added. Within a week, they put me back on Nardil. My manic reaction to this exposure was more severe than the original mania. I never responded to previously successful treatments again.
- Scott
Posted by Jeroen on September 25, 2010, at 9:00:31
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?
is it because some psychiatrist are incompetent, or say lets try, we get in trouble and our brains damagedk, thats what happened to me, and i ve seen it happen to others aswell
Posted by huxley on September 26, 2010, at 2:29:55
In reply to Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?, posted by Jeroen on September 25, 2010, at 9:00:31
> Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?
>
> is it because some psychiatrist are incompetent, or say lets try, we get in trouble and our brains damagedk, thats what happened to me, and i ve seen it happen to others aswell
>
>Haven no doubt in my mind that meds cause mania in people that otherwise would not get it.
But what is mania? Drs seem to think anything is mania these days.
Posted by Jeroen on September 26, 2010, at 2:35:52
In reply to Re: Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?, posted by huxley on September 26, 2010, at 2:29:55
mania = drug induced psychosis
Posted by Conundrum on September 26, 2010, at 10:26:50
In reply to Re: Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?, posted by huxley on September 26, 2010, at 2:29:55
My pdoc thinks I was "slighty below hypomanic" when I was on prozac. A relative of mine said the thoughts she had on 60 mg of nardil were psychotic and her husband recommended that she stop it. She went back to 30mg and everything was fine. Dumb doc started her at 60mgs. Most docs would say the patient had latent BP disorder. DO THEY EVER THINK THAT THEY ARE GIVING PEOPLE DRUGS!??!?! DRUGS INDUCE MIND ALTERING STATES. DUH! ITS CALLED "TOO HIGH A DOSE" OR "THE DRUG WORKING TO WELL," NOT BP II.
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:37:58
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
Maybe it was not the meds--maybe it was just you evolving into more pronounced version of what prompted the docs to medicate you? You did poorly on the original meds, but then switched to something more compatible to your chemistry--do you mean to say your brain chemistry was forever altered? I'm no trying to be argumentative or otherwise difficult, but I have never bought into the belief that brain structure/chemistry is changed forever after a medication is ceased. Enlighten me, Scott--why do you think this to be the case? You have a lot more insight than me here and I am only responding from my own experiences. Take care:)
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:40:17
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Jeroen on September 24, 2010, at 8:56:28
Perhaps that is not the best drug for you? Did you find something that did not cause you these awful side effects then?
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 15:44:35
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:37:58
> Maybe it was not the meds--maybe it was just you evolving into more pronounced version of what prompted the docs to medicate you?
What is the "it" you are referring to? I don't understand.
> do you mean to say your brain chemistry was forever altered?
Unfortunately.
As an example, neuroleptics can produce as a side effect irreversible tardive dyskinesia. You give someone Haldol, they develop a characteristic movement disorder, you stop the Haldol, and the movement disorder persists.
It may be that neuroplasticity tends to occur in one direction over another - downhill rather than uphill. My responsivity to antidepressants has decreased over the years. The drugs that worked 25 years ago do not work now. Something has changed. It seems that my responsivity to antidepressants has deteriorated over the years rather than being enhanced. How does one explain tachyphylaxis (poop-out), the phenomenon wherein an individual responds to drug treatment for only a short period of time? They seem to develop a resistance to ever responding to that drug again. It is the exposure of the brain to medication that is the stimulus for this to occur.
Scientists have been permanently altering (damaging) mouse and rat brains with chemicals as experiments for decades. They can even be selective in terms of the systems and regions of the brain they damage.
Does chronic alcohol consumption produce permanent changes in the brain? What prevents an antidepressant from doing the same thing?
Not only can chemicals produce permanent changes in the brain, but so can experiences. PTSD is a good example of how this can occur. Even experiences in the womb can determine many of the persistent behavioral traits that an individual will demonstrate for the rest of their lives.
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:58:12
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 15:44:35
Tardive dyskinesia is the only example I can find for permanant bioligical damage to the brain. Again, not trying to be argumentative, but I do not agree that the psych's choice of meds are at the root of what continues to ail you. I strongly believe in personal responsibility and so maybe that's where we are in disagreement. I mean no harm to you, but think we are coming from different perspectives. I hope you are doing better now:)
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 16:37:07
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:58:12
> Tardive dyskinesia is the only example I can find for permanant bioligical damage to the brain.
Do you think your personal research into these matters has been as exhaustive as those who choose to spend their entire lives studying them?
> Again, not trying to be argumentative,
That's okay. You can be argumentative.
> but I do not agree that the psych's choice of meds are at the root of what continues to ail you.
Are you sure you know me well enough to say such things?
What ails me?
> I strongly believe in personal responsibility
I have none?
What are you talking about anyway?
> and so maybe that's where we are in disagreement.
I didn't know we were.
> I mean no harm to you,
Don't worry. I may not be as fragile as you think I am.
> but think we are coming from different perspectives.
Coming from different perspectives regarding what specifically?
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 16:51:43
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 16:37:07
In dissecting your post, I still disagree with you. I do not believe the docs messed up your brain--I believe that you encountered a psychological breakdown that might have been worse without their assist. I feel that the meds and their side effects just serve to offer you an excuse. Again, I am sorry that you experienced so much chaos at such a young age.
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 17:06:59
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 16:51:43
> In dissecting your post,
It is usually not necessary to dissect my posts. My writing is pretty transparent and efficient.
> I still disagree with you.
Of course, this is your elective.
> I do not believe the docs messed up your brain--
Again, this is your elective. I appreciate your input.
> I believe that you encountered a psychological breakdown
What exactly is a "breakdown"? Can you be more specific?
> that might have been worse without their assist.
How do you know who my doctors were? How can you characterize their decisions as being without iatrogenic consequences without knowing anything about them?
> I feel that the meds and their side effects just serve to offer you an excuse.
An excuse for what?
I appreciate that you should take such a special interest in me and my welfare. I am blessed.
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 17:21:15
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 17:06:59
I think this thread is no longer helpful. I was merely referencing personal responsibility and you seemed to have missed that. I do wish you the best though Scott:) Your posts are insightful and thought-provoking:)
Posted by Tomatheus on September 27, 2010, at 17:40:43
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:58:12
> Tardive dyskinesia is the only example I can find for permanant bioligical damage to the brain.
I can think of two more examples of how pharmaceutical use can induce long-term damage:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.21318/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18790702
I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that pharmaceutical use cannot cause long-term damage. Research? Expert opinion?
Tomatheus
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 17:48:26
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 17:21:15
> I think this thread is no longer helpful.
> I was merely referencing personal responsibility
I guess I missed your point, sorry.
I would have to know what it is that you think I am not taking personal responsibility for in order for this thread to be helpful.
I sometimes get defensive when someone indicates to me that I need to take personal responsibility for something when they know so little about me or my situation in life.
What do I need to take personal responsibility for?
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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