![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bulldog2 on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:46
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
>
> What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
>
> If you were to argue that there is a biologial illness that we just are not advanced enough in our science to
> detect it well what makes you think we are advanced enough to treat it?
>
> How can you treat a chemical imbalance that you have not detected using drugs that you do not understand what they do?
>
> To me this seems the opposite of balance. When you are putting these drugs in your system, this is when you are creating
> an imbalance which leads to you being chronically ill.
>
> "For instance, Prozac and other SSRI antidepressants block
> the reuptake of serotonin . In order to cope with this hindrance of normal function, the
> brain tones down its whole serotonergic system . Neurons both release less serotonin and
> down-regulate (or decrease) their number of serotonin receptors . The density of serotonin
> receptors in the brain may decrease by 50% or more . As part of this adaptation
> process, Hyman noted, there are also changes in intracellular signaling pathways and
> gene expression . After a few weeks, Hyman concluded, the patient's brain is functioning
> in a manner that is "qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from the normal
> state"
>
> "The brain responds to neuroleptics-which block 70% to 90% of all D, dopamine
> receptors in the brain-as though they are a pathological insult . To compensate,
> dopaminergic brain cells increase the density of their D, receptors by 30% or more"
>
> Does that sound like a healthy balance? Is there any suprise that once you stop taking a neuroleptic or an AD that when this gross
> imbalance of receptors sends you a little nuts?
>
>
> Christ empowered if you dont mind me asking, how did you get off your meds? From what it sounds like you were on a or some APs?
>
> I have tossed the pill bottles in the bin. Then gone scrambling back to the bin a couple of days later. I am having an extremly hard time with zyprexa. Only been on it for a couple of years. Would you mid sharing your story of how you got off them?
>
>
>
>
>
>My thread was started on the premis that for some people meds are the only method that have worked. I have not stated that meds are the only path for all people. Again a thread based on those for whom meds have been the path that has led to remission.
Now something that has worked for ChristEmpowered or other people that is non med does not mean that meds are the incorrect path for those above. It simply means there is more than one way to solve a problem.
I think there is a lot of evidence that there is a biological basis for depression and other mental illness. It is the science of genetics. Like any part of the human anatomy the brain can be diseased and can be encoded via genetics and passed along. I saw it in my own family. People who have raised dogs for instance have pups born with behavioral problems. Forget the term chemical imbalance that is just something that someone coined. People pass along size, eye color, diabetes and all kinds of biological problems. Well the brain is an organ and how can one deny that it is not subject to disease.
By the way there are tcas, maois and other ads. Just because ssris are flawed doesn't mean all ads are flawed. Also all ads do not lead to mania and a than a diagnosis are bi polar.
What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE
Why do I have to recognize this? Because sometone said it?
Posted by violette on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:46
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bulldog2 on June 17, 2010, at 12:46:11
Bulldog, I know what you meant about the "chemical imbalance" vs. genetics (at least I think I do).
I do think genetics are important but at the same time, I think the genetic component can be overrated. For example, if you had a mother who was emotionally unavailable, you could turn out with psychological problems. Is that REALLY genetic, or maladaptive coping patterns developed as a result of childhood attachment experiences, passsed down from one generation to another?
Posted by bulldog2 on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:47
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » bulldog2, posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 13:56:36
> Bulldog, I know what you meant about the "chemical imbalance" vs. genetics (at least I think I do).
>
> I do think genetics are important but at the same time, I think the genetic component can be overrated. For example, if you had a mother who was emotionally unavailable, you could turn out with psychological problems. Is that REALLY genetic, or maladaptive coping patterns developed as a result of childhood attachment experiences, passsed down from one generation to another?I know what a genetic problems is and that is not what i meant. There have been occassions where twins have been separated at birth and yet had the same temperaments. One twin was separated from the parents at birth at yet had the same temperament as either the mother or father. To me that is genetics. That is not the same as what you have described which is also a valid cause of behavioral development.
It seems as if people have problem with this concept that temperament may indeed be biological and your eye color or height. A schizophrenic parent may indeed have a schizophrenic child. Bipolar, depressed,etc can all be passed from parent to child.
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:47
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » bulldog2, posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 13:56:36
> Bulldog, I know what you meant about the "chemical imbalance" vs. genetics (at least I think I do).
>
> I do think genetics are important but at the same time, I think the genetic component can be overrated. For example, if you had a mother who was emotionally unavailable, you could turn out with psychological problems. Is that REALLY genetic, or maladaptive coping patterns developed as a result of childhood attachment experiences, passsed down from one generation to another?What you describe does not necessarily lead to major depressive disorder (MDD). There are plenty of psychologically dysfunctional people who are not depressed. My guess is that there is a matrix of genetic and epigenetic components that contribute to the development of MDD.
- Scott
Posted by bulldog2 on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:47
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by SLS on June 17, 2010, at 14:20:24
> > Bulldog, I know what you meant about the "chemical imbalance" vs. genetics (at least I think I do).
> >
> > I do think genetics are important but at the same time, I think the genetic component can be overrated. For example, if you had a mother who was emotionally unavailable, you could turn out with psychological problems. Is that REALLY genetic, or maladaptive coping patterns developed as a result of childhood attachment experiences, passsed down from one generation to another?
>
> What you describe does not necessarily lead to major depressive disorder (MDD). There are plenty of psychologically dysfunctional people who are not depressed. My guess is that there is a matrix of genetic and epigenetic components that contribute to the development of MDD.
>
>
> - ScottThank you Scott. What she was talking about is not what I meant. I am talking about the various aspects of temperament. I believe they are genetically endoded and passed from parents to children. I am saying are temperamnets are inherited from our parenets. Can they be modifed by your environment and experiences? Yes? Genetics starts us out with our unique temperament. Biological disease of the brain can pass along depression, bipolar, schizophrenia ect. via genetics. In these cases I believe psychotherapy is unlikely to yield good results.
If psychotherapy was so successful p-docs would not have had a need to look for meds. The bottom line was people were spending years in psychotherapy with minimal results. Talk therapy is perhaps best suited for situational problems but not that great for people with biological situations. There was someone saying there's no proof of chemical imbalance. I think the people with biological situations are well aware of what they have.
Posted by violette on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:47
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » violette, posted by bulldog2 on June 17, 2010, at 14:08:09
I misunderstood-thanks for the clarification. My temperment (as I define it) has always been overly sensitive, since I was a young child...such as too much stimuli-noise, etc., couldn't deal with seeing animals hurt on TV. I was quiet and introspective while one of my siblings was hyperactive and extroverted. The manifestations of our mental health conditions are quite different.
So you are saying temperment is genetic-does that include personality traits or do I have that wrong too? I could see people adapting to their environment differently-an extrovert vs. introvert, left-brain thinker vs. right brained...thinking of Jung's Meyers-Briggs...
Posted by violette on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:47
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by SLS on June 17, 2010, at 14:20:24
"What you describe does not necessarily lead to major depressive disorder (MDD)."
Yes, not necessarily, but it can. Having a very low self worth, whether conscious or unconscous, can lead to the symptoms of MDD.
An extreme example is someone who only received positive attention from their parents when they were ill, resulting in a pattern of remaining ill to fulfill emotional needs. There's dependent personality disorder and traits that can lead people to need taken care of-one might only fulfill that need from being ill. There's depressive personality disorders and traits...along with machochistic/self-defeating behavior...and some who possibly unconsciously form a victim mentality. Psychosomatic medical symptoms are very interesting to think about too.
Those are just some alternate views and theories which I tend to agree with. Psychologists are divided about theories, so naturally I'd expect the same here. I just don't agree with the classification of mental disorders for the most part, thinking the deep, inner workings of the mind-particularly from the psychological/non-biological perspective-are more important than actual diagnoses.
Posted by violette on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:47
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by bulldog2 on June 17, 2010, at 14:39:23
"Talk therapy is perhaps best suited for situational problems but not that great for people with biological situations."
Hey there,
I realized I misunderstood your assertions. But in regard to the above, there is research that therapy can positively affect brain plasticity, changing the underlying biological (neurological) patterns of the brain. I realize this is not what you believe, but I disagree with some of what you said and would like to express my beliefs.
My therapist is very attachment oriented, I'm sort of being 're-parented'. Primary diagnoses I had been given over the years were mainly anxiety disorders. My very first mental diagnosis was PTSD, which did fit best at the time.
For me, therapy isn't more effective for situational problems; it is truly relieving me from symptoms I've had for a long time.
This article explains how childhood issues can lead to neurological mental symptoms/disorders, and certain types of therapy can change that. I was in the wrong type of therapy for several years, which is why therapy didn't personally help me-it made me worse off.
http://www.psybc.com/pdfs/library/Dysregulation_of_right_Brain_Schore_Trauma.pdf
This is one I already posted but there's alot more of this line of thinking out there. I can't find the other article that I wanted to pass along to anyone who might be interested in this discussion.
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:48
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 16:23:34
> "What you describe does not necessarily lead to major depressive disorder (MDD)."
> Yes, not necessarily, but it can. Having a very low self worth, whether conscious or unconscous, can lead to the symptoms of MDD.Can one be depressed without having major depressive disorder?
- Scott
Posted by violette on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:48
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » violette, posted by SLS on June 17, 2010, at 17:06:39
"Can one be depressed without having major depressive disorder?"
Well yes, of course, depression is usually viewed in terms of a continuum.
So let me ask you a question or two:
Does the lack of just_one_symptom of a DSM diagnosis, which would exclude a patient from the 'MDD' diagnosis on the basis of not meeting the full diagnostic criteria--impact his or her course of treatment or provide any clues as to the causes behind the symptomology? Is it relevant if 5 psychiatrists give 5 different depression-related diagnoses to the same person based upon their interpretations and perceptions (NOS, dysthmia, MDD, etc.)?
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2010, at 5:20:21
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by violette on June 18, 2010, at 0:31:48
> "Can one be depressed without having major depressive disorder?"
>
> Well yes, of course,You say "of course", but I think this fact is lost in the conceptualization and treatment of depression. I think too many people are treated biologically whom would be better served with psychotherapy.
> depression is usually viewed in terms of a continuum.
I think this is a useful model.
> So let me ask you a question or two:
>
> Does the lack of just_one_symptom of a DSM diagnosis, which would exclude a patient from the 'MDD' diagnosis on the basis of not meeting the full diagnostic criteria--impact his or her course of treatment or provide any clues as to the causes behind the symptomology? Is it relevant if 5 psychiatrists give 5 different depression-related diagnoses to the same person based upon their interpretations and perceptions (NOS, dysthmia, MDD, etc.)?Those are some great questions. I think the current DSM sucks when it comes to the diagnosis of Axis I disorders. It is primitive and imprecise. In some ways, it is too rigid. In others, it is too brief. If it were to devote as much time to Axis I diagnoses as it does to Axis II diagnoses, perhaps it would be more useful. Biological tests are on the way; some of them to use microarrays to determine gene activity. Until then we must rely on observations that are to a large extent subjective and not amenable to quantification. Sometimes, a diagnosis is not confirmed until someone responds to a particular treatment. It is unfortunate that things should work backwards in this way, but there is a great deal of trial-and-error involved in treatment selection. We know what we know. It is what we don't know that creates frustration and cynicism.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2010, at 11:14:48
In reply to Diagnosis of depression. » violette, posted by SLS on June 18, 2010, at 5:20:21
I feel there are degrees to different diagnosis like some work depressed or anxious, some are more disabled and can't or their docs say no. And how the person views their symptoms sometimes leads them also into alternative treatments. Some function quite well on a med or like my Daughter just prefer not to take meds. It's very complicated I feel. Phillipa
Posted by violette on June 18, 2010, at 20:06:51
In reply to Diagnosis of depression. » violette, posted by SLS on June 18, 2010, at 5:20:21
Posted by bulldog2 on June 21, 2010, at 18:13:42
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
> > > What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> > > If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
> >
> > You may want to do some more reading.
> >
> > http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=depression brain changes&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=depression brain&gs_rfai=Csmb8IQAZTLO0MIK_tge8lqCwCgAAAKoEBU_Q1PH7&fp=610e7dd948e54cca
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> What you posted is nonsense. It has been exhaustively shown that there is no causative relation between neurotransmitter levels and mental illness, depression included. The studies I'm referencing are mostly competing studies on AD's, antipsychotics, and anticonvulsants. The information on this subject isn't vague; neurotransmitter variations aren't the cause of mental illness. Drugs of completely opposite mechanisms can cause the same relief of depression. For instance, serotonin re-uptake inhibitors and serotonin antagonists both relieve depression. Glutamate release inhibitors (decrease frequency of NMDAR evoked voltage gated currents), like lamictal, and glycine agonists (increase frequency of NMDAR voltage gated signalling) both show benefits for conditions like OCD.
>
You are mixing apples and oranges. Even if there is no correlation between neurotransmitter levels and mental illness does not mean there is no biological basis to mental illness. You act as if neurotransmitter levels are the only way to cause mental illness. There is a field of science called genetics? Have you heard of it. Our physical characteristics which include all body organs and that include the brain are passed via genes. This also includes termperament or personality. Now bare with me we are not talking about chemical imbalance. Keep your young mind on genetics. As one who has raised dogs (high animals) some are born yes born with certain personality traits such as assertiveness, shyness, aggression etc. That is seen also in human beings. Twins who have been separated at birth often have similar personality traits. Yes the brain being an organ is subject to being flawed at birth and people being born with various mental illnesses.You state that there is no biological basis for mental illness. try individuals anadoctal stories. Those who have suffered various mental illness from birth. Those of us who have suffered this know all to well about the biological basis for mental illness. I'm not talking chemical imbalance. We can throw that term out the window.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.