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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mtdewcmu on December 1, 2009, at 10:55:04
In reply to Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 2:49:39
I guess I am going to have to skim through all of those studies now. But I expect that all of them are flawed in similar ways.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 1, 2009, at 11:15:12
In reply to Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 2:49:39
> Please scan the links, my very good friend:
>
> http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/jpn/vol-31/issue-2/pdf/pg84.pdf
>That article postulates a mechanism; it doesn't prove that exercise works. You should have posted these studies instead (quoted from the paper):
"Most germane to the present article are the recent studies that have assessed the effects of exercise on patients with MDD. Three articles are of particular interest. First, Dimeo et al99 assessed the efficacy of exercise in the treatment of moderate-to-severe MDD. In this study, exercise significantly alleviated the condition. In the second, Mather et al100 assessed the effects of exercise classes as an adjunct to antidepressant medication. The patients who participated in the exercise classes displayed greater improvement than did the control patients, who attended health education talks. Third, Dunn et al101 assessed the effect of the dose of exercise on 80 adults with MDD. There were 3 conditions: moderate aerobic exercise, low-intensity aerobic exercise and flexibility exercise. The moderate aerobic exercise group improved significantly more than the other 2 groups."
> http://www.ulbruxelles.be/facs/ism/docs/behaviorBDNF.pdf
>Same problem.
> http://www.physci.ucla.edu/research/GomezPinilla/publications/ReviewHormesis.pdf (click down to access all 14 pages)
>This article is a literature review, not a study. It doesn't contain proof of anything.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/g441495247401673/fulltext.pdf?page=1
>I can only see one page of the preceding article.
That study deals with DHA, not exercise directly. Moreover, the experiment was done on rats, which will exercise spontaneously unless they are kept in confinement. So, studies on rats tell us more about the negative effects of confinement than they do the positive effects of exercise.
It's too tedious to go through all of these articles. Reply with 2-3 good ones if you can.
Neal
> http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=pdf&file=000223730
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2614307/
>
> http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=3ykTAQ7QIegC&oi=fnd&pg=PA33&dq=BDNF+exercise+depression&ots=Awf7zrzXog&sig=w5r8n2IZ25Ue2o7EU8phqsszrkc#v=onepage&q=BDNF%20exercise%20depression&f=false
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2597158/
>
> http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n11/full/1301671a.html
>
> http://bmbreports.org/jbmb/jbmb_files/%5B42-5%5D0905250942_(239-244)BMB222.pdf
>
> http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/62/5/633
>
> http://svaynman.com/images/exerciseBDNFcognition.pdf
>
> http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/88/5/2187
>
> -- Ron
>
> dx: Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling and mild OCPD
>
> 600 mg/day Trileptal
> 200 mg/day Lamictal
> 500 mg/day Keppra
> 90 mg/day Nardil
> 1.9 mg/day Deplin (taken with methyl B-12 and P-5-P)
> Dark therapy via LowBlueLight glasses
>
> ------------------------------------------
>
> > I think that this is another case of needing to acknowledge the interindividual differences that exist in the presentations of what we are all calling "depression". I never tried performing vigorous aerobic exercise every day for 3-4 weeks. I have lifted tons of weight, though. My exercise schedule comprised 4 times a week with alternating muscle groups. I did this for years without gleaning any benefit for my depression. There was a time when I did take brisk walks of 5 miles every day. Again, no help.
> >
> > I think one needs to respect the potential for depression to render one nearly motionless with paralyzing psychomotor retardation and suffocating anergia. To intimate that a person with such a presentation can exercise if they were only to try hard enough can insinuate that they perhaps are somehow inferior and simply do not want to do what might be necessary to get well. Of course performing exercise is generally a good thing. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable of it. Fortunately, there are other ways of treating depression. Exercise is not a necessary component of most treatment regimes. Actually, there are a few doctors who believe that intense anaerobic resistance exercise like weight-lifting can make someone feel worse instead of better - something about depleting brain amines. I don't know if I agree with this, though.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:16:09
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by Katgirl on December 1, 2009, at 10:44:12
> When I was clinically depressed with psycho motor retardation etc etc. I was told that I needed to try to keep moving etc etc. I would try to go for walks. It was exhausting, it made me worse, but I did it because it was what my doctor instructed. Basically it never helped at all.
> Now, after rTMS, I have mild/moderate depression depending on the day. Now Exercise is crucial for me. Especially exercising outside (bike riding etc). It is so helpful for me that I get very concerned about a setback when I can't exercise. This fall I had major surgery and was out of commission for several weeks. I was really starting to hit the skids by the end of my recovery. Getting back on my exercise schedule was crucial.Thanks for posting this. It is foreign to me that exercise should have such a positive impact on one's state of depression. What is most fascinating about your story is how different your response to exercise has been before and after rTMS.
I hope you continue to feel better.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:22:15
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 10:34:03
Hi Ron.
No, I am not angry with you, especially because I know that your motivations are of true concern rather than of wanting to win a pedantic debate.
I still love you.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Katgirl on December 1, 2009, at 11:40:05
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Katgirl, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:16:09
I think exercise is VERY helfpul for my anxiety as well. But I guess that makes more sense than the depression. And to clarify, it is not like exercise makes me all better, but it definitely makes an appreciable difference. Interestingly enough, exercise also benefited me when I was on a medication that worked for me. So for me, like all things, I seem to need to be at a certain level of wellness for adjunct therapies like exercise etc to work.
Yeah, the rTMS thing is so interesting. A bit like a reset button for my brain (although not quite all the way!) Wish they could find some way to make it work on anxiety as well!
Take care! K
Posted by Meltingpot on December 1, 2009, at 12:23:10
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on November 30, 2009, at 12:53:40
Hi Scott,
Glad somebody feels the same way as I do about what constitutes a response for them.
It's strange really, for just over a year I've been going to these weekly spiritual sessions (where they pray over you). I tend to sit on the fence as far as religion goes, neither believing or disbelieving. I know that when I'm feeling very bad though, I think that God is punishing me.
The spiritual healing sessions haven't really been helping (at least I don't think they have) but I made a friend there who became a born again christian years ago after experiencing the power of the holy spirit. I asked her how it felt and she said that she suddenly noticed the colours of everything around her, how they seemed really vivid. I asked her if she was taking any medication at the time as it sounds something like an antidepressant response. I keep going to the spiritual healing hoping that if the medication doesn't work then perhaps I'll be invested with the Power of the Holy Spirit instead. I would like to have some faith in something as I don't feel I have any faith in anything apart from medication (and that doesn't work so well any more). I just think maybe if I could truly believe that there was a God up there and he/she/it loved me then it might help me a bit.
I do hate myself sometimes for always being so negative about more hollistic treatments, secretly I envy people who do feel better from exercise or taking vitamin B tablets or therapy.
Denise
Posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 12:59:20
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by Meltingpot on December 1, 2009, at 12:23:10
For me, my spirituality helps me to accept what is and not curse God for what isn't. It does not improve my biological depression, but it does help to maintain my psychological health and sense of well-being.
- Scott
Posted by RocketMan on December 1, 2009, at 14:02:23
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 12:59:20
> For me, my spirituality helps me to accept what is and not curse God for what isn't. It does not improve my biological depression, but it does help to maintain my psychological health and sense of well-being.
>
>
> - ScottAmen to that. If not for my faith, the world would not be a place for me. With faith, I am able to remain here, one day at a time. +
Rick
Posted by Ron Hill on December 1, 2009, at 16:00:42
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 11:22:15
> I still love you.Phew!
-- Ron
Posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2009, at 20:42:27
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by RocketMan on December 1, 2009, at 14:02:23
I have lacked religion all my life wasn't exposed to it so fear everything. Not good Phillipa
Posted by morganator on December 1, 2009, at 23:34:18
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
>Whatever benefits you think exercise has on brain function are either missing the target or not robust enough. Personally, I think it misses the target in a large number of people.
I don't think someone has to get significant relief from their depression for exercise to benefit the depressed brain. Exercise can be used simply to maintain brain health/fitness and help prevent depression/anxiety/stress from damaging the brain.
I think one important thing that we are seeing from what people have been saying is that people are more likely to exercise and benefit from it if much of their depression has been treated through medication or some other treatment.
So we could all agree that a large portion of the depressed/anxious population benefits from exercise(probably people suffering from anxiety will be more likely to benefit) and a large portion of the population does not. Who knows whether one is considerably more than the other. It would be interesting to find out.
I have to admit I have been pushing exercise here. I have also come off as I am trying to win an argument. The same can be said for someone else(not you Scott). What matters to me most is that people would at least try to exercise if they can and hopefully feel good because of it.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:21:13
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2009, at 20:42:27
> I have lacked religion all my life wasn't exposed to it so fear everything. Not good Phillipa
I was raised with religion, but I never found it to be a comfort. I never felt secure that God would let me into heaven. So it was another source of anxiety.
Interesting that someone brought up religion in an exercise thread. Exercise is a religion to some people. It gives them a holier-than-thou attitude toward people that don't.
I will exercise if I feel like it. I don't appreciate being lectured to about it. The evidence for benefits from exercise is pretty flimsy from what I've seen. It's certainly not strong enough to make somebody feel like they are to blame for their depression if they don't exercise.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:27:12
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by morganator on December 1, 2009, at 23:34:18
> I have to admit I have been pushing exercise here. I have also come off as I am trying to win an argument. The same can be said for someone else(not you Scott). What matters to me most is that people would at least try to exercise if they can and hopefully feel good because of it.
>I have a feeling you are referring to me, since I have gone out on a limb supporting the devil's advocate position. I'm afraid to say that you came across as a bit belligerent in your support of exercise, but I intuit that you are generally a decent person nonetheless.
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:31:34
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:21:13
I think a lot of people exercise even though they hate doing it and as a result it makes them angry. That is one reason that I don't force myself to do it.
(Or perhaps angry people channel their energy into exercise as a means of sublimation.)
Posted by Ron Hill on December 2, 2009, at 1:13:21
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by SLS on December 1, 2009, at 6:29:01
Scott,
The following article purports to describe a condition where exercise is highly detrimental to the patient's wellbeing.
<Begin Quote from Article>
Free radicals are unstable molecules that move freely through the body and bond with other molecules in healthy cells, damaging chromosomes, enzymes, cell membranes and mitochondria through oxidization (the same process that makes iron rust).
The most damaging free radicals are produced within the cell's mitochondria. Believe it or not, exercise can actually speed up this process by as much as 200%. These added free radicals likely can't be quelled by our inherent antioxidant defenses, especially with today's sub-par diets. Instead they damage our cell systems resulting in decreased energy levels, accelerated aging and decreased mental performance.
<End Quote from Article>
http://www.howlifeworks.com/health_beauty/energy_boost_1245976566/?cid=7060bz
Overlook the product endorsement.
Who says I don't strive to provide balance?
:-)
-- Ron
dx: Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling and mild OCPD
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
500 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
1.9 mg/day Deplin (taken with methyl B-12 and P-5-P)
Dark therapy via LowBlueLight glasses
Exercise: Brisk walk with dog on foothills trails, Ride, Lift, Swim, and Sauna-------------------------------------------
> Hi Ron.
> > I agree that the patient may be unable to exercise due to severe depression-induced anergy, amotivation, and anhedonia. However, let's not dismiss the fact that exercise improves brain functioning.> This feels like someone is trying to force a sugar pill down my throat. Give me something that works for ME.
> What is so hard about acknowledging the fact that exercise will not benefit a sizable percentage of people who suffer from depression? Let's not extol the virtues of exercise on physical fitness. That is irrelevant to this discussion.
> Regarding BDNF, if it were simply a matter of increasing its production, the only drug that would ever be needed to treat MDD and BD is lithium. Unfortunately, things are more complicated than that. Whatever benefits you think exercise has on brain function are either missing the target or not robust enough. Personally, I think it misses the target in a large number of people.> It is harmful when one person insists that another person is not experiencing what they "should" be, despite that person having met the criteria set by the first person.
> In 1982, some of the most progressive research psychiatrists in the world insisted that my ultra-rapid cycling was due to a variability in my processing of unidentified pscychological pathologies. I was incredulous that my treatment team was so blind, especially with Ronald R. Fieve's office door being located just down the hall. I had already tried psychotherapy for 6 years using 4 therapists. Then, imipramine showed me what consciousness is without depression. Fortunately, I didn't internalize my doctors' assertions that I was in need of more psychotherapy and that drug therapy was not indicated. If they only had opened their eyes and minds, they would have seen the striking regularity of my ultra-rapid cycling, and realized that they were looking at a biogenic affective illness. Fieve would have diagnosed me properly right away, but then I would have had to suffer through trials of rubidium. I knew.> For people whose depressions are areactive to exercise, we know. We just know.
> - Scott
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:07:41
In reply to Re: I'm an exercise skept - To SLS, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:21:13
>It gives them a holier-than-thou attitude toward people that don't.
Aren't you taking this a bit too far. I have never heard of anyone with such a chip on their shoulder concerning exercise. Preaching something that millions of people are benefiting from in many different ways is not such a bad thing.
No one is saying they are better than you because they exercise and you don't. If you have had this experience with people that exercise this is unfortunate. Most people I know that exercise just do it and feel good about it and do not judge others or even care that others don't.
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:16:47
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 0:27:12
> > I have to admit I have been pushing exercise here. I have also come off as I am trying to win an argument. The same can be said for someone else(not you Scott). What matters to me most is that people would at least try to exercise if they can and hopefully feel good because of it.
> >
>
> I have a feeling you are referring to me, since I have gone out on a limb supporting the devil's advocate position. I'm afraid to say that you came across as a bit belligerent in your support of exercise, but I intuit that you are generally a decent person nonetheless.Thank you, yes I believe I am a decent person that sometimes feels so passionate about something I can get a bit carried away.
I was talking about you. I felt like you were coming off as a bit belligerent as well. I don't think there are any indecent people on this site. I understand your frustration and skepticism. I also believed you to be a descent person despite feeling like you were taking things too personally(I may have done this as well)and not having an open mind in this discussion.
Peace,
Morgan
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:22:53
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 2, 2009, at 1:13:21
Oxidative stress from exercise can be kept to a minimum by not over doing it. It can also be counteracted through proper diet.
Sorry I just had to say something. Exercise, if done properly, will never be bad for anyone at any age. Unless, of course, someone has some health condition that does not allow them to exercise.
Posted by SLS on December 2, 2009, at 5:26:59
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 2, 2009, at 1:13:21
It occurred to me that perhaps increased glutathione activity might offset the oxidative stress produced by exercise. Do you know anything about that? I just don't like the idea that a healthy body would leave such stressor events unchecked or offset by some other processes.
Just thinking.
- Scott
Posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 7:18:16
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 2:16:47
> I was talking about you. I felt like you were coming off as a bit belligerent as well. I don't think there are any indecent people on this site. I understand your frustration and skepticism. I also believed you to be a descent person despite feeling like you were taking things too personally(I may have done this as well)and not having an open mind in this discussion.
>
> Peace,
>
> Morgan
>
>I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I don't believe I wrote anything that wasn't based in cold, hard logic. It wasn't emotional. My beef is with the scientific evidence, not you.
Posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2009, at 22:10:20
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 7:18:16
Personally I like the Nike slogan "Just Do It". Works for me maybe not others. We are all so different. Phillipa
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 22:37:04
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science, posted by mtdewcmu on December 2, 2009, at 7:18:16
Didn't think you had a beef with me. Just felt like there was some emotion behind your statements that sounded personal. No dead horse beaten here.
Besides, what's wrong with expressing emotion or things being somewhat personal. Do we have to remain emotionless when reacting to others on this site?
Posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 22:38:35
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » mtdewcmu, posted by morganator on December 2, 2009, at 22:37:04
> Didn't think you had a beef with me. Just felt like there was some emotion behind your statements that sounded personal. No dead horse beaten here.
>
> Besides, what's wrong with expressing emotion or things being somewhat personal. Do we have to remain emotionless when reacting to others on this site?That is, as long as we are not mean to each other.
Posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 0:03:17
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » Ron Hill, posted by SLS on December 2, 2009, at 5:26:59
Scott,
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/119181432/HTMLSTART
-- Ron
---------------------------------------
> It occurred to me that perhaps increased glutathione activity might offset the oxidative stress produced by exercise. Do you know anything about that? I just don't like the idea that a healthy body would leave such stressor events unchecked or offset by some other processes.
> Just thinking.
> - Scott
Posted by morganator on December 3, 2009, at 0:21:26
In reply to Re: Umm. Let's Not Ignore the Science » SLS, posted by Ron Hill on December 3, 2009, at 0:03:17
Drinking a good undenatured whey protein is one of or the best way to keep glutathione levels high. I use Jarrow's brand because it is affordable and is of the same quality of some other much more expensive undenatured whey proteins on the market(immunocal is one example).
It would be wise to drink something like this post-workout.
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