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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Cseagraves on January 14, 2009, at 21:29:12
In reply to MAOI TX in Severe+Resistant Depression, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 14, 2009, at 17:26:27
Jeff,
Thanks so much for your response. Sorry to bombard you with so many questions, but it seems you and I have alot in common, especially our diets. I'm 5'2 and weight stays around 120-125 lbs.
Use to work out all the time. Miss it so much. I keep telling myself if I can just get down there and force myself, I could get motivated to start back. Don't understand why I get anxietal at the thought of it when I was so religious about it before.
I did try to start back running this week, But weening myself off of the lexapro and then having the awful side effects to the trazodone over the last couple of days have floored me. Was going through all of my books trying to find a good detox to see if I could get this out of my system quicker. I just ordered some more MAX GXL (off e-bay, alot cheaper)as it has alot of good healing nutrients and always made me feel better. Alot of body-builders use and it is a good detox for body, but I was trying to find a good quick cleanse also.
The last book on anxiety I read was "Coping with Anxiety" by Dr. Edmund Bourne, but it didn't really tell me anything I hadn't already researched before as far as how to cope with anxiety. I'll definately look up "The Anxiety Disease". Would love to figure how this started.
I've never drank any of those ephedrine drinks that were at the gym or in the stores. Scarey to me. Red Bulls and other energy drinks scare me also, plus I don't like anything carbonated (soft drinks)and I don't like anything that taste fruity. So basically the only thing I drink is decaffeinated green tea and maybe occasionally some decaf coffee in the morning, my whey shakes,(sometimes I'll switch up and throw some blueberries and strawberries into the mix instead of bananas and peanut butter.
Maybe I'm confused about something I thought I had read. I thought we had to watch out for tyrosine in products because taking maoi's screwed with the conversion of tyrosine to tyramine in our bodies. Do you take amino supplements that contain tyrosine? Because I was really upset that I would have to give up my aminos. I'M SO CONFUSED!!!
Like you, beer to me has always been disgusting. I like a glass of red wine every once in a while.(usually a sangria) One site said no liquers (so I was wondering if Kahlua was O.K., but since its a coffee based drink, then probably not a good idea. Will keep the Sambuca in mind. Never drank much anyway. Don't like feeling drunk ( I have enough issues)LOL!!!, but I like a couple of shots of a good tequila every now and then when I'm out with friends. It's quick, fast and effective and doesn't give me a headache. (Not that I go out now anyway, GOD I MISS MY BEFORE LIFE!!!!)
I know I asked you a bunch of questions before, but you didn't give me feedback regarding veggie burgers or vegetarian "chicken" patties. I am assuming since they are soy based, then they are probably a no-no. Maybe I could just try one and see what happens, ya think?
I see that we are very pro-active as far as health goes, but was wondering what you do when you do get a cold or flu. What can we take?
Thanks again for your time and info.
Hope will talk soon.
CS
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 15, 2009, at 0:43:08
In reply to Re: MAOI TX in Severe+Resistant Depression, posted by Cseagraves on January 14, 2009, at 21:29:12
Sorry,
I thought I answered the tyrosine question because it's present in high enough doses in whey protein shakes so why should it be different in capsule form although amino acids do compete to cross the blood brain barrier, but it should make a difference. Again, I re-wrote most of the article (MD says Dexdrine, bla, bla, bla) to show you that the only things you have to worry about is what I re-wrote.
I didn't answer the veggie burgers because it' safe both according to what I spent time re-writing the article and I personally eat veggie burgers and never had a problem.
Good luck,
Jeff
Posted by Cseagraves on January 15, 2009, at 14:21:06
In reply to MAOI TX in Severe+Resistant Depression, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 15, 2009, at 0:43:08
Sorry.
Thanks for all the info - will look it up.
CS
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 15, 2009, at 20:29:58
In reply to Re: MAOI TX in Severe+Resistant Depression, posted by Cseagraves on January 15, 2009, at 14:21:06
Also, there are some other meds your physician my not be aware of that when used off label for anxiety, social phobia, agoraphobia, panic disorder, GAD, PTSD, can be very effective.
GHB (XyRem) or gamma-hyroxy-butyrate is a medicine indicated for narcolepsy and excessive daytime sleepiness. However, in smaller doses taken prior to going out to socialize or any thing or place that causes anxiety, it can do wonders. I've personally used it especially a very small amount prior to giving a speak to a large group and it makes you want to talk and more open and "inhibits" your fear kind of like alcohol does, but better. However, it can cause rebound anxiety and whenever I took it, I'd always take a very low dose of xanax to prevent the potential rebound anxiety. Testing is being done by Jazz Pharmaceuticals for multiple uses such as a socializing drug as well as other indications.
Oxytocin is the hormone of cuddle and helps us to fall in love as well as promote uterine contractions during child birth, but has some potential as an antidepressant, anxiolytic, and a socializing hormone. It's one of two hormones secreted by the posterior pituitary and is available by injection (used mainly by OBGYN's to induce labor) and as a spray (easier to take and crosses the blood brain barrier better).
D-Cycloserine is an antibiotic with interesting potential uses and some studies show individual taking it prior to a phobic event learn not to fear it.
Beta-blocking drugs like Inderal (propranolol) prevent the run away adrenaline fear one feels in a scary situation and some people take it prior to speaking (stage fright) or flying (acrophobia). However, Inderal can cause depression, but there's a more specific beta-blocker used to help depression called Viskin or pindolol which might help you.
Posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 1:59:07
In reply to Re: e: MAOI TX in Severe+Resistant Depression, posted by JadeKelly on January 12, 2009, at 21:02:09
> > Jade I used provigil for a long time with nardil.
> > Tried it with parnate couple of times and no ill effects.
> >
> > Sissy
>
> Hi Sissy, yep, I think they do use that alot too, I tried it once, the only kind of stim that agrees with me is Ritalin.
>
> Jade tlj*i wouldn't assume that since ritalin is the only stim that you like on its own, that its necessarily the best one while you're on an MAOI.
-d/r
Posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 2:28:22
In reply to Re: MAOI TX in Severe+Resistant Depression, posted by Cseagraves on January 14, 2009, at 14:44:16
> Jeff,
>
> Hi and thanks for yout reply.
>
> Couple of questions if you don't mind. Before I start(hope you have some time) my initial dx was extreme GAD and panic, which has now led to agorophobia. I say that I am not depressed, but actually I'm sure that I am because I can't get out and do what I used to do (Was a very active and fun person). On top of that, I get more depressed I'm sure every time I take a med, praying that it will help, only to end up back to where I was.I do try and keep a positive attitude, but it is getting harder.
>
> Was reading over all of the dietary restrictions. They seem to differ depending on which web-site I look at. Since I am a vegetarian, I will have to do some adjusting, but not alot. Your opinion on some of these would help.
>
> No problems with alcohol restrictions, except maybe some vodka or tequila sometimes.Its really just tap beers. Chianti probably too, although only a single vintage ever tested high for tyrosine afaik.
> No problem with cheeses that are listed, except maybe parmesean. (Does that mean I can't have Ceasar salads anymore? (Anchovies are in some ceasar dressing)
i would be carful with anchovies. i quit eating shrimp paste/oyster sauce.
> In resturants, what do you tend to order that's safe?
fortunatly for me, unemployment moots this problem.
> Proteins - what are protein extracts? What are they in? I drink a good bit of whey protein, sometimes mixing it with some peanut butter and a banana. Is that out, or will I just have to try it and see what happens? I did notice with some whey protein products that some contain amino acids (including tyrosine). I will watch for those.
protein powder is fine, i think the bigger risk is the sort of 'meat flavour' artificial flavor in broths.
> One of my supplements is a product called "Total Amino Solutions" and it contains 132 mgs of L-tyrosine and 150 mgs. of L-tryptophan. I found this blend of aminos because the level of aminos in this product are supposed to help with depression, anxiety, panic, insomnia and fibromyalgia. I'm sure that I will have to give up this brand. I've looked and can't seem to find any aminos that don't have tyrosine in them. (oh well).
tryptophan/5htp is a bit of a risk
> I do eat alot of dark green veggies - especially spinach, turnips, collards, broccoli, celery. I keep seeing spinach come up (New Zealand Prickly). Looked it up and that doesn't look like the spinach I buy in stores. Do I have to give up spinach?
>
> Avocados - not ripe, in small quantities. I mash them up in alot of my raw soups.
>
> Yogurt - small quantities? some sites say O.K., some say no.i'm not sure on this. i think its safe, analogus to the quick ferment cheeses which are safe.
> Bananas - some sites say o.k (just not the peels), honestly, never heard of anyone eating a banana peel. Some sites say no.
>
> Nuts - I eat alot of almonds and drink almond milk. Love peanuts and peanut butter. Again, some sites say O.K. and some say no.nuts are fine.
> soy products - I don't eat tofu, but I do eat things like "Morning Star" veggie and chicken patties that contain ingredients like soy protein isolates, soy bean oil, autolyzed yeast extract.
> Do you think that would be enough to trigger a reaction. I think (because they are listed so far down on the ingredient list) that maybe they are small in amounts. I can give up soy milk, if I have to.the autolyzed yeast extract would be the main thing i would be concerned with.
> Soy Sauce - I use "Bragg's Liquid Aminos" to flavor some of my raw soups. Maybe thats not to much. I'm sure chinese food is now out of the question. Suck! Sushi O.K.???
Sushi is ok if you don't use soy sauce. and, a little bit of soy sauce could be ok, definatly stick to a brand and be aware of what else you're eating. it just is a matter of how much you want to risk it.
> Beans - eat alot of beans, have no idea what a fava bean looks like anyway. Not sure what other broad beens they are referring to. One site said no "lentils"?
lentils are fine.
> CHOCOLATE - Really??? Seriously, no more M& M's or chocolate chips. My one and only treat that I allow myself is chocolate and peanut butter morsel chips.(about a handful of these each almost every night). That really blows!!!
chocolate is fine.
> I understand that everyones body can react differently. I'm sure alot of this is trial and error. I am beginning to feel like the parnate is my last shot. SSRI's didn't work anymore and I'm not sure if I want to even experiment with an SNRI.
>
> I am hoping that more peeps add their post to let me know what they experienced first going on parnate. How long were you on it before you started feeling good side-effects from it? Can I expect to feel kind of out of it or sluggish for awhile. I'm 5'2 and weigh 125 lbs (I'm also 41), so was wondering when I could hopefully start to feel better.
>
> I've read some post who say they could feel a difference within the first couple of days and others who say they took awhile. I feel like if I could just get to the point where I could get back out in public and not feel anxietal at the thought of going to the grocery store or picking my son up from school, then I could get past the depression. Re-train my brain. Go back to and finish school and get a job would be great. Just want to feel like a producttive part of society instead staying in my house all the time.
>
> Jade had posted where in the beginning she had 10 straight days of feeling great, then came back down? Why was that? Am assuming that it was just her body metabolizing the med. I know you can't tell me exactly what to expect, but I just want to feel level so bad. I have a whole gym set up in my basement that I haven't touched in 6 months (I have anxiety attacks everytime I think of working out and have no idea why).
>
> Sorry for the long babble. At first the parnate scared me, but the more I get to know about it. it doesn't seem that bad. Don't understand why it is made out to be such scary stuff. The diet restrictions aren't that difficult and just keeping an eye on my BP will not be a problem.
>
> I asked my pdoc if he had ever had a patient experience a hypertensive crisis and he said "no".
>
> If parnate can actually lower my blood pressure a little, then that would be an advantage to me. From what I understand, BP levels out after being on parnate for a little while, so lets hope thats the case with me.
>
> I truly appreciate your time. As you can probably tell, I'm a little OCD about everything I put in my mouth. (diet and meds).
>
> Thank you again and have a great day!!
>
> Courtney
>
>
>
>
>heres a summary of more modern recommendations. A lot of sites just read some other web sites, and make a list, then add a couple of foods just in case. http://www.edc.gsph.pitt.edu/stard/public/docs/PatientEducationMaterials/User%20Friendly%20MAOI-diet.pdf
-d/r
Posted by Cseagraves on January 16, 2009, at 11:57:34
In reply to Re: MAOI TX in Severe+Resistant Depression, posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 2:28:22
D/S'
Thank you so much for your response. Makes me feel better that the diet isn't all that difficult. Still not sure about resturants, but will figure that one out.
Honest, have you ever heard of any one eating a banana peel? LOL!!!
Courtney
Posted by Cseagraves on January 16, 2009, at 12:02:45
In reply to GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 15, 2009, at 20:29:58
Jeff,
Thanks for the info. I am assuming you sent this regarding the anxieties that I said I was experiencing just trying to get out of the house. I am printing out alot of this stuff to show and ask my pdoc about when I go back.
Another question please. Do you take a blend of aminos?
Courtney
Posted by Cseagraves on January 16, 2009, at 12:24:49
In reply to GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 15, 2009, at 20:29:58
As far as the GHB goes, would that be o.k. to take for fatigue that I might experience while taking the parnate or would the GHB be better for emergencies only?
Was curious as to what levels of fatigue most peeps experience when taking parnate and does it eventually go away.?
Thanks, CS
Posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 13:24:26
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by Cseagraves on January 16, 2009, at 12:24:49
GHB would be a great sleep drug for MAOI users. Its impossible to get a presciption for it though.
-d/r
Posted by Phillipa on January 16, 2009, at 19:26:16
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 13:24:26
d/r isn't that considered the "date rape drug"? Not sure. Love Phillipa
Posted by JadeKelly on January 16, 2009, at 20:52:53
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label » desolationrower, posted by Phillipa on January 16, 2009, at 19:26:16
> d/r isn't that considered the "date rape drug"? Not sure. Love Phillipa
Is it? Gosh. They probably teach that in those courses you take? I would'nt have known. Just makes ya sick doesn't it? Thanks for the info!
Love, Jade
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 17, 2009, at 1:29:11
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by Cseagraves on January 16, 2009, at 12:02:45
I don't take amino acids as my whey protein drink has plenty and I probably drink one six times a day. Taking amino acids would be a waste of money for me because I get more than enough in the protein shakes even branched chain.
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 17, 2009, at 1:50:28
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by Cseagraves on January 16, 2009, at 12:24:49
I took GHB, Xyrem, regulary while on Nardil when I went out to socialize (helped)at a very very low dose and prior to bed at a higher dose to enhance growth hormone release from the pituitary as well as the sleep enhancing effects. You may need less sleep on Xyrem as the half life is short and when the dopamine rebound occurs, you might wake up and it can cause anxiety then so if you do you it, you should use it at very very low doses for disinhibition to overcome the agoraphobia and not for sleep. I liked the fact (I get the same effect from MAOIS anyways) that I would only have to sleep 4 hours and feel like I've sleep 8hrs with Xyrem.
I've never experienced fatigue on MAOIs and in fact just the opposite where as SSRI, SNRI, TCAs all gave me fatigue. Xyrem will help with fatigue if you have it, but like I mentioned it does have a rebound effect of dopamine (GHB increases serotonin for antidepressant and antianxiety effects, binds to GABA-b receptor for the antianxiety antifear disinhibition, and slightly increases dopamine in one part of the brain giving a heightened libido and growth hormone releasing effect while suppressing dopamine in another part of the brain that when it wears off produces alertness and wakefulnes (sometimes anxiety) which is why it's indicated for narcolepsy and excessive daytime sleepiness.
Hope this helps.
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 17, 2009, at 2:29:10
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 13:24:26
I never had a problem getting Xyrem from the psychiatrist I used to see and now I just see my family physician who is open to trying things with me and would give me a RX for Xyrem if I wanted, but he also knows I research everything well and have a medical background as a physician assistant.
However, you're right regarding physicians being apprehensive in RXing Xyrem as GHB has has an unfortunate bad press regarding it as the date rate drug when GHB was sold in health food stores as a supplement. It is present in many foods, but just n smaller quantities although dark beer like NewCastle Brown has a decent amount of natural GHB present in it. Ward Dean, MD the worlds most authorative expert on GHB wrote a book called "GHB The Natural Antidepressant" (http://www.warddeanmd.com/irsintro.htm). It's unfortunate that no one has ever died from taking GHB alone even in mega doses, but the party animals abused it with various other drugs giving GHB a bad name. Great book to read.
Posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2009, at 19:23:51
In reply to GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 17, 2009, at 2:29:10
Thought that was GHB. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2009, at 19:30:59
In reply to GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 17, 2009, at 2:29:10
Just googled GHB for own self thought I'd share. Phillipa
Posted by shasling on January 17, 2009, at 20:19:01
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label » CaptainAmerica1967, posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2009, at 19:30:59
Phillipa,just to let the group know,there are way over PRO sites discussing GHB.....as there is the same as way OVER CON ones.
Project GHB is horrendly filled with propaganda,run by a retired office who has made a actual career with ghb,you cant particpate in the group unless everything you say is anti ghb.
I recomend if someone is curious simply wikipedia ghb,no pro,no con,just what the drug does,which is carries gaba via sodium hydroxide pass the blood brain barrier where as normal gaba itself such as bought in a store can not cross over.
Most gaba drugs since gaba cant cross the brain are made attathed to something that can,example gabitril is attatched to synthec vinyl.
Ghb is gaba attatched to a hydroxide which allow it to pass the brain.
One of the biggest problems with the drug is it is EXTREMLY DOSE DEPRENDENT,meaning a tad bit more can have one from relaxed to sick.
A pro is if understood and respected,ghb is non toxic,metabloizes to water,and at the right dose increases social acitivity even in the most socialy isolated person you can find.
Posted by desolationrower on January 18, 2009, at 6:37:33
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by shasling on January 17, 2009, at 20:19:01
You know a drug is worthwhile if there's a group of people who think its EVIL. Drugs that noone objects to are not worth taking and probably harmful too.
-d/r
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 18, 2009, at 12:06:57
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by desolationrower on January 18, 2009, at 6:37:33
Everyone has their own opinions and views of what medicine is good or bad and there have been countless medicines through time that people had once thought were of no good only to turn out to be live savers, ie thalidomide once thought of only causing thalidomide babies now saves the countless of lives of for those suffering from inoperable brain cancers that metastasize by inhibiting tumor necrosis factor.
Many poeple throughout the ages are resistant to change from the "norm" of what's the accepted value of thinking, but without being open to new possibilities (Scientific Theory), we'd still think the Earth was the center of the Universe and that Earth was flat or that mental illness is caused by demons in the brain.
I saying Xyrem may not work for some individual, but if one's life is resigned to living inside with agoraphobia for the rest of life never to socialize outside of their home again, why not be open to trying something that has been proven to be safe. The individuals abusing GHB made it into an illicit status nutritional supplement, not the medical professionals using it to help their clients overcome their fears. Any medicine can be abused including acetaminophen, caffeine, and alcohol, but used responsible they can help.
Posted by Cseagraves on January 18, 2009, at 13:25:55
In reply to GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 17, 2009, at 1:29:11
Just curious Captain.
What brand of Whey Protein do you drink and just to clarify, from what you are saying, it's o.k. to keep taking my aminos while on parnate?
Thanks,
CS
Posted by Cseagraves on January 18, 2009, at 14:07:17
In reply to GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 18, 2009, at 12:06:57
Capt.,
Still not sure which med to keep on hand in case of a hypertensive episode. Procardia, from the articles that I read can have some severe reactions.
What do you do if BP drops to low?
CS
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 18, 2009, at 17:04:47
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by Cseagraves on January 18, 2009, at 13:25:55
I take EAS whey protein. I'd feel quite comfortable in thinking you can take your aminos while on Parnate assuming there's no exotic fillers that might interact, but you may want to be cautious at first. Why would aminos be contraindicated when your diet is full of tyrosine and L-tryptophan unless the supplement is very old and the tyrosine has broken down into tyramine? As they say in medicine, never say never and never say always.
Jeff
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 18, 2009, at 17:32:58
In reply to Re: GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by Cseagraves on January 18, 2009, at 14:07:17
Beside the Procardia (nifedipine), I've heard Rogitine (phentolamine) as well as Thorazine (chlorpromazine).
I'd speak more with your psychiatrist and or family physician regarding your concern. You might get a little light headed if your blood pressure drops suddenly.
Posted by Sigismund on January 23, 2009, at 14:45:16
In reply to GHB, Oxytocin, D-Cycloserine, others off-label, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on January 18, 2009, at 12:06:57
>You know a drug is worthwhile if there's a group of people who think its EVIL. Drugs that no one objects to are not worth taking and probably harmful too.
That was interesting.
Any decent acceptable AD will soon become a (so called) drug of abuse.
Politics, history, patents, the feedback between bigpharma and the medical industry in a protected market, and the misery of the bulk of the population.....that's why we get the drugs we have.
This is the end of the thread.
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