![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 32. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 10:22:49
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by yxibow on December 31, 2008, at 5:52:28
I wonder if any of the anticonvulsants can be used to mitigate the withdrawal syndrome induced by benzodiazepine discontinuation. I would think that Depakote would help. If the withdrawal syndrome (overshoot) is buffered, perhaps sequalae involving kindling can be avoided. Kindling might be a contributor to some of the persistent adverse effects that people report.
I almost always have questions to ask. I rarely have answers. :-(
- Scott
Posted by Abby Cunningham on December 31, 2008, at 12:52:21
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
Hi Michelle,
I have been on benzos almost the same length of time as Phillipa and I do not believe that they have affected my cognition to any degree. I consulted with the top benzo guy from Boston in the country (head of the benzo study some years back), a psychiatrist who is famous and he told me they were safe to take in such small doses for years especially since I never increased and in fact have decreased the equivalent of 25mg. of valium and take a very small dose.Also, you are early off the benzo---in fact most of the forum administrators say give yourself 18 months at least.
You may belong to the Yahoo benzo group; I do. There is plenty of evidence that people do recover and live normal lives post-benzo. In the following article, six studies were conducted and 3 found no evidence whatsoever of any decline (the date on this is 2005 whereas the date on the article you copied is 2000) I agree that we need more studies on this; but I would not worry about it! Anxiety itself can cause cognitive decline if you think about it.You can't go back, so go forward in this new year! Best wishes. Abby
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michelle
>
>
Posted by crittercuddler on December 31, 2008, at 14:17:35
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by JadeKelly on December 30, 2008, at 21:17:27
Jade,
.5mg a week is WAY too fast of a taper. Please read the "Ashton Manual" online. It is a great resource to educate yourself about benzos and how to withdrawal in the safest and least painful way possible. I unfortunately found it too late.
You can check out the links to these threads I have going on some forums to see how I am doing.
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=10812.0
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11414.0
http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=10815.0
If you are interested in tapering off of Klonopin, please check out benzoisland.org or benzobuddies.org. I am a member at both support sites and the posting name is the same crittercuddler.
benzo.org.uk is also a good site.
My anxiety is the worst. I experience anxiety on a daily basis like none that I have ever experienced in my life before taking a benzo. I am afraid to do most everything and the anxiety is crippling. I also have had tinnitus continually for 6 months and do many people who stop their benzo. It is awful.
Posted by crittercuddler on December 31, 2008, at 14:36:28
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2008, at 23:14:20
Thank you so much Lar for the encouragement. I have been scouring the internet for months trying to find something to the effect of what you just told me.
What are your sources for the information you shared about the rebound phenomenon? And especially, this statement:
"Here's the key point though, the rebound phenomenon is proof that your body is seeking a normal equilibrium. GABA-A receptors do decrease in number under chronic benzodiazepine exposure. It takes time for your body to recognize the deficit, to upregulate the genes that produce them, and to synthesize the receptors. I have full faith that your capacity will rebound. What I can't predict is how long it will take."
What daily amounts and dosing schedules would you recommend for the supplements that you suggested?
Posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 14:39:31
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 10:22:49
> I wonder if any of the anticonvulsants can be used to mitigate the withdrawal syndrome induced by benzodiazepine discontinuation. I would think that Depakote would help. If the withdrawal syndrome (overshoot) is buffered, perhaps sequalae involving kindling can be avoided. Kindling might be a contributor to some of the persistent adverse effects that people report.
Is anyone game for giving Depakote a try to minimize the benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome? Subsequent to my last post, I found some investigations designed to evaluate the use of Depakote to minimize withdrawal symptoms.
One study I came across suggested that Topamax might be a better drug for benzodiazepine withdrawal than Depakote. Depakote seems to be particularly effective to treat alcohol withdrawal.
- Scott-------------------------------------------------
1: Alcohol Alcohol. 2000 Jul-Aug;35(4):319-23.Click here to read Links
A role for valproate in the treatment of sedative-hypnotic withdrawal and for relapse prevention.
Harris JT, Roache JD, Thornton JE.Department of Psychiatry, The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, 78284-7953, USA.
In the human central nervous system, the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) type A receptor complex undergoes changes with both acute and chronic exposure to sedative-hypnotic drugs. These changes contribute to both the acute effects of these drugs as well as the chronic effects of sedative-hypnotic dependence, withdrawal, and drug craving. Clinically these chronic effects are difficult to treat in patients dependent on ethanol or benzodiazepines. Valproate may return the GABA type A receptor function to a state more closely resembling its normal function. By this mechanism, it is possible to reduce the symptoms of sedative-hypnotic withdrawal and relapse.
Posted by linkadge on January 1, 2009, at 9:27:02
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by SLS on December 31, 2008, at 10:22:49
I would just use plain old taurine. It interacts with gaba-a receptors and calcium channels has potent antioxidant effects and has proven effects in reducing alcohol withdrawl.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 1, 2009, at 9:28:27
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by linkadge on January 1, 2009, at 9:27:02
Posted by ajax1 on January 1, 2009, at 15:59:25
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2008, at 23:14:20
Was interested in your use of supplements to ease benzo withdrawal. What amounts of each would you use?
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2009, at 20:40:18
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by ajax1 on January 1, 2009, at 15:59:25
> Was interested in your use of supplements to ease benzo withdrawal. What amounts of each would you use?
Well, more than half of people are deficient in magnesium. It just makes sense to make sure you're not one of them, it's so cheap, so important, and so safe. So, I'd recommend 100-300 mg, 1 to 3 times a day, of any magnesium salt (not magnesium oxide, which is poorly absorbed). One of the consequences of magnesium deficiency is poor uptake, and poor uptake makes loose stools a possible consequence. So, start at a lower dose, and if loose stools arise, back off a bit and give yourself a chance to adjust. Then increase after a week or so. If it makes you sleepy, best take it just before retiring to bed.
The taurine and niacinamide can be taken for anxiety symptoms.
Taurine dose of 500-2000 mg, max about 5000 mg/day, in divided doses.
Niacinamide, 100-500 mg/dose, max 2000 mg/day.
If you use either of these frequently, you're likely to find a diminished response. I don't know if that's a result of tolerance, or simply that your body is no longer so deficient in them.
Niacinamide also helps with allergies, acting as an antihistaminic. It also reduces the tendency to sunburn. Taurine has a number of cardiovascular benefits, and improves blood sugar regulation.
Lar
Posted by sdb on January 4, 2009, at 0:39:48
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michelle
>
>
I don't think that benzos damage the brain.
Sometimes these substances are used to prevent damage to the brain from 'excitatory' nerve firing.They're even less dangerous than other drugs. Combined with alcohol there can be some danger short term for some people (a no go). Some benzos have the risk to induce psychological depression.
What benzos do is maybe somebody addicted (I believe mainly psychologically) because one is no more ready to give the relief away.
warm regards
sdb
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 4, 2009, at 8:55:07
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michellemichelle... You wrote,[...if you are interested...].
I am interested in your situation and I can tell you that what you are experiancing has been experiance by many others.
I have been interested in what happens to those who take BZDs and how I can help others to overcome the effects that you describe here.
I am unsure as to if what I could say is or is not permitted by me to say here due to new rules made here. So if you would like to hear from my perspective as to overcomming the effects that you are describing, you could email me if you like.Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
there is an underscore between my name and the 1188
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 5, 2009, at 7:36:36
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
> Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
>
> I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
>
> If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
>
> I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
>
> I am terrified.
>
> Thanks.
> -michelle
>
>Hi Michelle ;-)
The big issue with the benzo drugs are the addiction. Some people (like me) developp an addiction problem very fast and need more and more benzo high doses to reach the same effect they had at the begining of their treatment, especially the Rivotril in my case. Someone who tend to use alcohol often to relieve is social anxiety, like I was doing before I begining the benzo drugs, and continue to use it with the benzo drugs will have a lot more chance to became addicted and less chance to withdrawh of the benzo drugs without any problem.Another big issue is the permanent dommage...It's seem that people with no addiction problem will be able to go off the benzo drugs after many years on them without having any problem or permanent damage. You can look at the Ashton Book, I think she talk about permanent dammage. (Benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms, acute & protracted) chapter...
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm#24
From my experience, I have a lot of difficulties with the benzo drugs and to withdraw them. Since I take them (now on Valium 20mg/day...succedd to reduce to Valium 10-15mg/day recently), I can say that I lost a lot of my memory and concentration with them. Before, I was someone really fast to understand everything, I never had to study a lot at school or to keep a list of my appointment, since I was always remember everything. Now, it's seem that I lost a lot of my concentration and short term memory with them.
I also wonder if it will be permanent or not...but who know, I think it will depend of how your brains are made...
They also tend to cause a more profond depression episode on people, that's what happen with me...and the tendancy to became used to their hypnotic effects make them a lot more hard to withdraw, since insomnia can be a big side effect when you stop them and sometimes it can last several months to years...The amnesic part of their actions make them also a lot hard for the impairement of the memory...I think it's related to the loss of concentration and short term memory...
Anyway, I think if you can stop them, you should do it gradually...to avoid unnecessary withdraw symptoms. Sure, you can experience a return in the same state than before in term of anxiety, sometimes rebound anxiety is worst than the anxiety you had before using them, but my theory is that you're better off them is you can do it than on them...
The brains seem to also developp a tolerance against the actions of the benzo drugs, changing the structure of the brain and make the gaba-a action completely inneffective. I think at this point it's a no return...
Some people will claim that "drugs" with gaba-b type target of action will help to withdraw from the benzo drugs (Neurontin, Lyrica...) but I believe that's not true, since they don't produce the same actions on the brains and don't have actions on anxiety or insomnia...but a more powerfull anticonvulsant action only.
I think permanent damage will tend to fade away and not being so "permanent" with time. You feed your brains with that kind of drug, a lot more powerfull than what most of the people think...so your brains need some time to recover.
That's only my point of view...I hope everything will be ok with you soon ;-) And I hope I will be able also to come off the benzo drug, after more than 3 years on them...I don't care about permanent dammage, I think anyway i'm better off them...Take pills for nothing like I do now make me feel like i'm addicted to a drug and I feel guilty of it...but what I can do??? Nothing cause it's the thrue...Maybe after I will stop them completly, I will never recover at 100% and stay with a poor memory or muscles shaking or a lesser concentration level, but I prefer this than having an addiction will last all my life...
Have a good day !! :-)
Vincent ;-)
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 1:43:29
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » crittercuddler, posted by Vincent_QC on January 5, 2009, at 7:36:36
Overall i'd say there is much less risk from a benzo than from many antidepressants.
But i think the unknown is the degree to which long-term use changes the ratio of the gabaa receptor types. i could see a situation where the benzo-influenced gabaa receptors are reduced in number, but the overall gabaa receptors increase back to a balance point; but iwth fewer of some subtypes, and more of others. This seems unexplored.
In general the brain is quite adaptable, and getting the environment and one's undestanding of it and of oneself right is really the biggest factor.
-d/r
Posted by sdb on January 9, 2009, at 13:03:35
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzos }} crittercuddler, posted by sdb on January 4, 2009, at 0:39:48
> > Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
> >
> > I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> > http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
> >
> > If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
> >
> > I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
> >
> > I am terrified.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > -michelle
> >
> >
>
>
> I don't think that benzos damage the brain.
> Sometimes these substances are used to prevent damage to the brain from 'excitatory' nerve firing.
>
> They're even less dangerous than other drugs. Combined with alcohol there can be some danger short term for some people (a no go).There are many intoxications with benzodiazepines (over dosage combined with other things) but compared to other drugs not many fatalities (to be more precise). There is also flumazenil that is an antidot which can be used in an emergency.
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 9, 2009, at 17:37:03
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzos (precision), posted by sdb on January 9, 2009, at 13:03:35
> > > Is anyone keeping up to date on research about whether "chronic" benzodiazepine usage can cause permanent damage to the brain? Specifically, by permanently altering the GABA receptor and GABAs actions in the brain?
> > >
> > > I have discussed this issue on another forum here, under the same posting name.
> > > http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=11415.0
> > >
> > > If you are interested, please read my posts there to understand my line of reasoning for being concerned.
> > >
> > > I am 6 months benzo free from a usage of 1.5 years. I am not any better than I was when I first weaned off in many ways. In some ways, I am actually worse. :-(
> > >
> > > I am terrified.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > -michelle
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > I don't think that benzos damage the brain.
> > Sometimes these substances are used to prevent damage to the brain from 'excitatory' nerve firing.
> >
> > They're even less dangerous than other drugs. Combined with alcohol there can be some danger short term for some people (a no go).
>
> There are many intoxications with benzodiazepines (over dosage combined with other things) but compared to other drugs not many fatalities (to be more precise). There is also flumazenil that is an antidot which can be used in an emergency.sdb,
You wrote,[...they (BZDs) are..less dangerous than other drugs...] and, [...combined with alcohol..some danger..short term..for some people..(a no go)...] and, [...not many fatalities...].
I am unsure as to many aspects of the grammatical structure of your post and would like to know what authority you used in the following:
A.in,[...less dangerous than other drugs...] what are the other drugs that you are wanting to use as a comnparison and what authority did you use to make that statement?
B. in,[...combined with alcohol..some danger,,short term..for some people..(a no go)...]
1.Could you differentiate as to if you are wanting to mean that the danger is undertermined or not due to the grammatical structure of the use of the word {some} and any authority for such?
2.what are you wanting to mean by {short term} here and any authority for such?
3. in {for some people}, what are the criteria, if you know, to determine which people could be in danger? Could you post an authority that states that not all people, but some people, could be in danger if BZDs are combined with alcohol?
4. what are you wanting to mean by {a no go}?
5. in {not many fatalities}, could you post an authority that states such and what you are wanting to mean by {not many}
If you could post answers to my concerns, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:12:09
In reply to Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » sdb, posted by Lou Pilder on January 9, 2009, at 17:37:03
I'm living testimony that you can drink with benzos on them over 37 years and until 14 years ago drank nightly beer with them and no problem, no hang over felt fine better than fine. Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 11, 2009, at 12:17:47
In reply to Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » sdb, posted by Lou Pilder on January 9, 2009, at 17:37:03
> sdb,
> You wrote,[...they (BZDs) are..less dangerous than other drugs...] and, [...combined with alcohol..some danger..short term..for some people..(a no go)...] and, [...not many fatalities...].
> I am unsure as to many aspects of the grammatical structure of your post and would like to know what authority you used in the following:
> A.in,[...less dangerous than other drugs...] what are the other drugs that you are wanting to use as a comnparison and what authority did you use to make that statement?
> B. in,[...combined with alcohol..some danger,,short term..for some people..(a no go)...]
> 1.Could you differentiate as to if you are wanting to mean that the danger is undertermined or not due to the grammatical structure of the use of the word {some} and any authority for such?
> 2.what are you wanting to mean by {short term} here and any authority for such?
> 3. in {for some people}, what are the criteria, if you know, to determine which people could be in danger? Could you post an authority that states that not all people, but some people, could be in danger if BZDs are combined with alcohol?
> 4. what are you wanting to mean by {a no go}?
> 5. in {not many fatalities}, could you post an authority that states such and what you are wanting to mean by {not many}
> If you could post answers to my concerns, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> Lou
>That's seem too much complicated for nothing. I think we can argue on a lot of points about the benzos drugs without having to post studies or web links to proof what we write...We are not students in psychiatrict field...well i'm not...maybe you...
For my own experience, I used a lot my benzo drugs with alcohol...8mg/day of Rivotril with tons of Vodka or beers at night, and more than 4 nights by week for 1 year and more...and I never had any problems, no loss of consciousness, I always remember anything I do on benzos and alcohol...but I can't tell you if it's like this for everyone or not. One thing is sure, for me, I get addicted more fast on the benzo drugs because I had already an alcohol abuse problem before I start them...So the theory about addiction and others comorbidities like alcohol or drug abuse is somewhat possible!!! No study to support my facts...sorry.
For the little I know about the internal functional of the gaba receptors in the brains and how they work, I can also write that it must be possible that gaba receptor are destroy and finding in a fewer number in the brains after the use of benzo drugs for a long-term period of time, especially with high potent benzo drugs. It's also possible that gaba receptor transform themself and try to adapt to the benzo drugs by encountering the effects of the benzo drugs on them, creating a new kind of gaba receptors who will not answer to the benzo drugs...making the benzo drugs less effective with time. Is it related to the alcohol abuse I had at the same time I used benzo drugs? I really don't know...I'm not a doctor or a Pdoc...
One thing is sure, I can write that the most potent the benzo drugs are (Rivotril, Xanax, Lorazepam) and the less time they have an action on the gaga brains (short half-life), and the more they will be addictive...and the more they can cause cognitives and impairements problems that will stay , even after the benzo drug are completly stop and withdrawh...
I only answer with my self knowledge and my own experience...
It's why, when it's time to write or speak about benzodiazepine drugs, I always point the Ashtoon manual... She's the best specialist in that field and she's a reliable and a good source of informations for me. She do a lot of research on the benzo drugs and how they work and with her, I know I not reading b*llsh*t studies or things that are just bla bla bla from the Internet...
Sorry, I just feel I had to add my point of view here...
For the little I know also, Valium seem to be the less addictive benzo drug but is also less potent than the Rivotril or Xanax...and the Valium is less potent for addiction but a way more sedative at the begining than any Xanax, Rivotril or Ativan pills...Valium is also the most easy benzo drug to stop....you can minimise withdraw effects by slowly reducing the dosage by 1mg every one or two weeks...keep in minds that 5mg of Valium =0.25mg of Rivotril, 0.25mg of Xanax and 0.5mg of Ativan...Since the Valium come into small pill of 2mg, you can cut it more easy to stop them...so that's another important point when it's time to withdraw and stop a benzo drug...
You can take my informations like just others bla bla bla...I just speaking about my own experience...I know benzo drugs are hard to stop and I know they are addictive...but I don't know why some people don't get addicted to them and can stop them cold turkey without having cognitives impairements at all or permanent dammages...
Have a good day!
Vincent ;-)
PS: Nothing personnal here...I just felt that I had an urge envy to write what I think....
Posted by sdb on January 11, 2009, at 14:24:02
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » Lou Pilder, posted by Vincent_QC on January 11, 2009, at 12:17:47
Vincent_QC wrote:
'bla bla bla...I just speaking about my own 'experienceThis is not just bla bla. Personal experience is worthy information, knowledge that you can't obtain by reading hundred books.
Thanks for sharing your experience with other people.
warm regards
sdb
Posted by Sissy35 on January 11, 2009, at 14:30:38
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » Lou Pilder, posted by Vincent_QC on January 11, 2009, at 12:17:47
"One thing is sure, I can write that the most potent the benzo drugs are (Rivotril, Xanax, Lorazepam) and the less time they have an action on the gaga brains (short half-life), and the more they will be addictive...and the more they can cause cognitives and impairements problems that will stay , even after the benzo drug are completly stop and withdrawh..."
You never made a truer statment Vincent!
I have suffered from panic attacks since the age of 6. So I have been on many benzos in my lifetime. I have always just stopped them cold trukey like with librium (do they even make it anymore?) and valium and some others.
I could kill the doc that ever gave me xanax! This is the most additive drug I have ever taken.
I am still fighting this drug. Some day I will make it. But its the hardest thing i have every tried.
Sissy35
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 12, 2009, at 10:54:21
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » Vincent_QC, posted by Sissy35 on January 11, 2009, at 14:30:38
>
> You never made a truer statment Vincent!
> I have suffered from panic attacks since the age of 6. So I have been on many benzos in my lifetime. I have always just stopped them cold trukey like with librium (do they even make it anymore?) and valium and some others.> I could kill the doc that ever gave me xanax! This is the most additive drug I have ever taken.
> I am still fighting this drug. Some day I will make it. But its the hardest thing i have every tried.
> Sissy35
>
>
>
Hi Sissy35!
That's true...Last summer, I ended up at the psychiatrict hospital because of the Xanax...I eatead them like candies...12mg/day and I never had any improve on my social phobia with the Xanax, I had 2-3 months of really hard cognitives impairements (not able to speak at all like I had a big patato in the mouth, muscles spams and cramps, panic attacks, short-term memory difficulties)...I still have some of them...no concentration at all, search my words, forget a lot of things...I had some improve at first on the Rivotril who is less addictive than the Xanax because he have a more long half-life than the Xanax...But that's was not wonderfull, except for the first month maybe... you see, some countries like England remove the Rivotril from the list of the anxiolytic drugs and it's now only avaible as a drug to prevent seizure...that's it...so that's maybe a good sign that it's not very good in a long-term view to treat anxiety...
I also have to fight with my Valium addiction now...Even if the Valium don'T make any positive effect on me, I still need to take it, if not, I feel a really bad sensation in my head...my brains crave for it...Sometimes, I get up in the morning and I want to stop it...but at the end of the day I feel like my head will explode and I also fear a lot seizures...
Did you ever had those strange sensations inside your head when you stop your benzo cold turkey??? It's what i'm leaving everyday...I feel like someone push my brain with his two hands or play in my head with a knife...that's really freaky... and I also feel so nervous that every little noise will make me jump...
For your information, in Canada, the Librium is avaible, I try it before my Xanax adventure last summer...It's similar with the Valium in term of efficacity and for the half-life in the blood...stay a lot longer in the blood than the newer and powerfull benzos like Rivotril or Ativan or Xanax...and it have also a lot of active metabolites, making it a more easy benzo drug to stop also...but the Librium take more time to make is effect...and it was totally inneffective on me...even at the maximum daily dose...
One thing is sure, people who claim that benzo drugs are not dangerous in a long-term of view they are totally wrong... I'm the perfect example of someone who loose maybe more than 80% of his cognitives abilities... Now i'm like a vegetable...I feel useless and I can't do a lot of things without feeling tired and without having to use all the energy I have, just to do some stupid things like writing a message on the internet for example... I canno't open my MSN now because I can't talk to one person at the same time...can you imagine me answer and talk with 10 peoples at the same time like before??? Never...lol
I see what it can do to others peoples in my familly also, who had to take Rivotril or Ativan for anxiety problems (people who didn't had any substances abuse in the past) and they all became addicted...So I totally disagree with the people who claim that benzo drugs are not addictive or dangerous for the cognitives impairements!!!
Benzo drugs have to be see as a temporary drugs...just to help to cope with a too much stress situation and they need to be stop after 4 weeks...
Too bad my family doctor never told me this before and never stop filled me tons of prescriptions of them... But what can I do? That's a good Doctor, he's just not used to have patients like me who are very easy to became addicted with streets drugs and alcohol...
So for now, I continue my fight against the Valium...i'm now at 10-15mg/day...I hope I will be able to stop them in 6 months...if I retrieve 1mg each week on my daily dose...
How you succeed to stop them cold turkey??? I canno't concieve this...you are really lucky to be able to do this...You never fear a seizure attack of something like that?
I write all of this now and I know I don't take my first 5mg dose of Valium today...And I can begin to feel the strange sentations inside my head...that's so weird...In my life, I was able to stop drinking alcohol in 1 day, I stop cold turkey a lot of "street" drugs that I used for years and years and I never encounter withdrawh symptoms...but I don't know why, the benzo drugs seem so powerfull on my brains that I just canno't stop them cold turkey. I can also stop any AD's drugs without feeling bad or worse...but not the benzo drugs...
One last question...When you stop them cold turkey, how many days it take before the overstress and anxiety level return to a normal state? Did you had a return to a level of anxiety worse than the one before you start a benzo drug???
Well I hope you will have a great day and thanks for your futur answers!!!
Take care of you!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by Sigismund on January 16, 2009, at 19:08:02
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » Sissy35, posted by Vincent_QC on January 12, 2009, at 10:54:21
>So for now, I continue my fight against the Valium...i'm now at 10-15mg/day...I hope I will be able to stop them in 6 months...if I retrieve 1mg each week on my daily dose...
>How you succeed to stop them cold turkey??? I canno't concieve this...you are really lucky to be able to do this...You never fear a seizure attack of something like that?
Once I reduced bromazepam from 36mg/d to 6mg/d. I would take the 6mg bromazepam in the morning so I didn't feel insane in public.
After 3 weeks I was alright.
But I never stopped completely.
Now I take 10mg/d Valium.
I'd like to stop because I feel for sure it is bad for me, but for sure I also need it.
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 17, 2009, at 10:33:18
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification/authority-uhnpsub? » Vincent_QC, posted by Sigismund on January 16, 2009, at 19:08:02
> Once I reduced bromazepam from 36mg/d to 6mg/d. I would take the 6mg bromazepam in the morning so I didn't feel insane in public.
> After 3 weeks I was alright.
> But I never stopped completely.
> Now I take 10mg/d Valium.
> I'd like to stop because I feel for sure it is bad for me, but for sure I also need it.Valium have a lot of actives metabolites inside it and stay a lot longer in the blood stream and accumulate in the body (fat tissues, muscles...), i'm sure it's not good in a long-term of view...but 10mg/day of Valium is still low if you compare it with the Rivotril or Xanax powerfull effect on the gaba-a receptors in the brains...
I return to 20mg/day since I stop the Parnate this week, it's a kind of answer from my body who just ask for more Valium to encounter the withdraw effects of the Parnate I assume...
One thing is sure, I prefer to be on the Valium than the Rivotril or Xanax...cause it's less addictive and incisive...I take it, I don't feel any effect on my anxiety, on my moods or things like that, but if I don't take it, I feel this strange sensations inside my head, like someone play with my brain and I hate it so much...so I just continue to use them...I have to learn to fight this "strange" sentation...
One day, I will be able to fight my addiction over this drug!!!
One thing is sure, they have a bad effects on the cognitives abilities in a long-term view and they can cause permanent impairements dammages...as well as worsing the depression... I'm the perfect example for this explanation...I can say that I lost more than 50%, if not more than 80% of my cognitives abilities, affecting my short term memory as well as the amount of time I need to understand something...I tend to have a strong memory for things that happen years and years ago...but i can't remember what I do yesterday or knowing the date and the day we are... (sorry, bad english here...I do my best ;-) ).
Posted by TimeLord on January 19, 2009, at 11:16:01
In reply to Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by crittercuddler on December 30, 2008, at 17:35:01
Hi CCuddler.
Here's my take on it. I've been on Klonopin for the better part of ten years now. I'm eight months off the drug right now and am having a difficult time. Is it due to brain damage? I doubt it, I believe it's more than likely my initial diagnosis, which was depression and anxiety. The thing is, if we take these meds for any period of time to help with this kind of diagnosis, we inhibit our ability to learn new coping strategies and thus when we come off, we are worse than ever - we've never learned a way to be WELL off of the meds. With this in mind, you might want to consider going on a med for a short time to get yourself a bit stable and doing some kind of therapy. It will work wonders, seriously. You need to get stable though first...
Posted by sdb on January 19, 2009, at 15:25:08
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines?, posted by TimeLord on January 19, 2009, at 11:16:01
'we inhibit our ability to learn new coping 'strategies and thus
thats a good point. I think that many things have to do with habituation.
If you did something a thousand times then it is more 'business as usual'. That was told by people, who have special jobs or do specific hobbies.
Posted by Sit2Know on April 2, 2009, at 10:51:10
In reply to Re: Permanent damage from Benzodiazepines? » ajax1, posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2009, at 20:40:18
I am 19 years off benzos and all medications and I have gone back into the exact benzo withdrawal symptoms I had originally twice. The first time at 14 years for 6 months and now it is over two years and totally disabled. I am in contact with another man with a similar return to symptoms.
This is not anxiety and we have both been through every medical test known to man, it is benzo symptoms 100% and was brought on by minor stress and fatigue. Anyone know of anyone who has had this happen.
Sit
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