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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by atmlady on July 9, 2008, at 12:31:27
Would taking stablon together with an SSRI be totally crazy? Would they cancel each other out? Or would they somehow work together (for good or evil) - anyone know or have any theories?
What makes me wonder is that per the tianeptine discussion above, it was suggested that because an SSRE seems to have the same effect (on the mood anyway) as an SSRI, the mood elevation may not have anything to do with serotonin levels per se, but is due to some unknown "else".
Posted by dapper on July 10, 2008, at 4:23:33
In reply to Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI?, posted by atmlady on July 9, 2008, at 12:31:27
I took stablon (tianeptine) for about 2 months with my effexor, and it worked well for me. But goal was to get off the effexor. One is a inhibitor, and one an enhancer, but its far more complicated than that with regards to effects on brain chemistry. I am now off effexor and feel like i am back in remission. Plus my sex drive has returned, thank god. Only side effect now is a bit of insomnia, but I dont mind since I work at night and can sleep in quite a bit. Current cocktail: 12.5mg stablon 2 or 3x daily
trivastal 50mg 1x daily
200mg lamictal 1x dailygood luck
Posted by bleauberry on July 10, 2008, at 16:35:18
In reply to Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI?, posted by atmlady on July 9, 2008, at 12:31:27
I have often wondered if the serotonin effect of a drug really doesn't have much to do with the mood, but that it does other things such as set in motion other adaptive changes in receptors and hormones, turn certain gene-talk on or off, and create side effects of too much serotonin. I think people who truly are deficient in serotonin are the ones who respond almost immediately. Serotonin reuptake inhibitor/enhancer...way too generic and limited to explain what these drugs are really doing, I think.
Try visiting tianeptine.com. The drug does a lot of other stuff that sounds to me like much more meaningful and important than anything having to do with serotonin. Visit the manufacturer's site too. They hardly mention the serotonin effect at all. It's the other stuff, primarily neuronal plasticity, genetic communication, receptor communication, and dendrite growth, that gets the focus.
A while back I saw an abstract at pubmed where a patient was given a conventional antidepressant, it didn't work, then they were given tianeptine, it didn't work, and then they were given a conventional antidepressant plus tianeptine together and it did work. But, no mention of what the other antidepressant was.
I personally would have no hesitation in combining tianeptine with another antidepressant, admittedly in careful tip-toe dosing at first, and that may actually happen in the not-too-distant future.
Posted by dapper on July 11, 2008, at 2:48:54
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI? » atmlady, posted by bleauberry on July 10, 2008, at 16:35:18
> I have often wondered if the serotonin effect of a drug really doesn't have much to do with the mood, but that it does other things such as set in motion other adaptive changes in receptors and hormones<
With regards to the seratonin enhancement or inhibition occuring within hours, and then the effects felt several weeks later, the theory is referred to as the 'cascade' effect...like a domino set, you are tipping one over and causing other events to occur, one after the other. Good luck in your mental struggles..
Posted by atmlady on July 11, 2008, at 5:32:00
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI? » atmlady, posted by bleauberry on July 10, 2008, at 16:35:18
I'm glad you wrote, bleauberry, because you and I seem to share similar symptoms of depression and respond to similar meds. I am still doing well on the ixel (am taking a 6 week breather from provigil), but worry that come winter, when the depression always seems to rear its ugly head, the ixel may lose effectiveness and i'll need a plan B. So I've purchased some stablon and then some strattera, and so that's plan b, just in case.
Meanwhile, bleauberry, i had some armour thyroid which i bought several months ago, because i have all the symptoms of low thyroid, plus it runs in the family (my mom and her mom). Was afraid to take it as I've always tested "normal" but last week I got to thinking hmmmmm...... all of the meds i do well on are stimulating, why would this be so? So today is day 3 with half a grain of the thyroid and I'm feeling pretty darn good. I seem to remember you also take thyroid - I think synthetic. Are you taking it because you are actually low or were you like me - experiencing the symptoms but not testing low?
Yesterday I found this post from a year ago about stablon, which says stablon increases thyroid levels, which made me go hmmmmm...... even louder.
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/20070710/msgs/769414.html#769414
Posted by bleauberry on July 11, 2008, at 21:07:16
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI? » bleauberry, posted by atmlady on July 11, 2008, at 5:32:00
That's great Ixel is being good to you. Ya know, it is a unique med, different than the others. I have a gut feeling it is going to hold you nice when winter arrives. If I'm wrong, I bet an extra 25mg or 50mg would be all you'ld need. That's just based on clinical studies at pubmed where that kind of dose change made a pronounced difference in the percentage of remission patients, which was very high.
I tried armour too and it was bad for me. Did the opposite of what I expected. I got much more fatigued and depressed very fast. My lab readings were within normal, but suspiciously out of balance with each other, suggesting a trial of T3 which I haven't done yet.
Considering the urinary side effects I had that were pretty bad, I was able to do 25mg ixel spread out in 3 8mg doses throughout the day for 2 weeks. Not sure why I gave up on it, I think because I knew I couldn't get any higher on dose. Maybe a low dose like that would eventually work a lot better, but require longer time to get there? I have no doubt I will be on ixel again soon. It has been a gradual decline without it.
Stablon is taking longer than I expected to arrive. Should be any time now.
You're fun to talk with. Stay in touch!
> I'm glad you wrote, bleauberry, because you and I seem to share similar symptoms of depression and respond to similar meds. I am still doing well on the ixel (am taking a 6 week breather from provigil), but worry that come winter, when the depression always seems to rear its ugly head, the ixel may lose effectiveness and i'll need a plan B. So I've purchased some stablon and then some strattera, and so that's plan b, just in case.
>
> Meanwhile, bleauberry, i had some armour thyroid which i bought several months ago, because i have all the symptoms of low thyroid, plus it runs in the family (my mom and her mom). Was afraid to take it as I've always tested "normal" but last week I got to thinking hmmmmm...... all of the meds i do well on are stimulating, why would this be so? So today is day 3 with half a grain of the thyroid and I'm feeling pretty darn good. I seem to remember you also take thyroid - I think synthetic. Are you taking it because you are actually low or were you like me - experiencing the symptoms but not testing low?
>
> Yesterday I found this post from a year ago about stablon, which says stablon increases thyroid levels, which made me go hmmmmm...... even louder.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/20070710/msgs/769414.html#769414
>
>
>
Posted by Mike_Cohen_2 on July 14, 2008, at 13:29:37
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI? » atmlady, posted by bleauberry on July 11, 2008, at 21:07:16
I found some old archives, but I wanted to see if anyone has had any success with this drug for anxiety. If so, what dose and frequency and how long have you been on it. SSRI's do squat for me. They keep me from crying, but don't take away the sadness. Honestly, I feel better after a good cry, so IMHO crying is good. My depression seems to be secondary to my anxiety, or at least is seems to be as I have free floating anxiety all day long even with benzos.
I'm so tired of playing lab rat. I have about 20 different meds I've tried over the past 15 mos. when all this started for me. Nothing helps the anxiety except the benzos. I got some relief from Buspar for the first two weeks, but then it turned on me and I think it made it worse in the end. Other than that, I've tried most of the SSRI's, Mood Stabilizers, Augmentation with Antipsychotics, etc. I even saw a homeopathic Dr. and spend a few hundred bucks on supplements which did squat.
I took 5-HTP 100mg three times/day while on 50mg of Zoloft. Got the crazy diarrhea from it, but in the end, no relief from anxiety and I think it started putting me into Serotonin syndrome, so I stopped taking it.
Bleuberry, I saw you ordered Stablon and wondering what, if any, effect it has done on you. I'm not sure I understand how it works. If it enhances Serotonin release, then doesn't it work just like our bodies do without it ? The SSRI block to reuptake, thus keeping the Serotonin in the Synapse, so they claim. Isn't that where you want it ? I'm really confused about the two. Maybe you can clear the air for me. I have a 30 day supply here, not sure if I should take it with the 50mg Zoloft QD or just switch it. If I switch it, do I get the withdrawal?
I think I'll change my username to LabRat..lol
Gary
Posted by atmlady on July 14, 2008, at 19:51:48
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI? » atmlady, posted by bleauberry on July 11, 2008, at 21:07:16
BB, I will certainly keep in touch! I always enjoy reading your posts. You know when to call a horse a horse and a zebra a zebra! LOL!
Posted by Marty on July 17, 2008, at 16:02:33
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI?, posted by dapper on July 10, 2008, at 4:23:33
> trivastal 50mg 1x daily
Can I ask you why you're on Trivastal and how it feels ? Since I tried Tianeptine I'm curious of other Servier products.
/\/\arty
Posted by Marty on July 17, 2008, at 16:07:33
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI? » atmlady, posted by bleauberry on July 10, 2008, at 16:35:18
> and that may actually happen in the not-too-distant future.
I'm looking forward reading your posts about your experience if you try that. Any idea which SSRI you would combine ? ... I really wonder how it does feel. I'm currently on Tianeptine btw.
If only Tianeptine could fix some of the serotonine soaking typical side effects.. sexual and cognitive would be great.
/\/\arty
Posted by dapper on July 17, 2008, at 16:43:07
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI? » bleauberry, posted by Marty on July 17, 2008, at 16:07:33
I tried trivastal for no real good reason, just to use it as an alternative to wellbutrin...It mainly comes down to finances, and I read some favorable information related to trivastal, so it has remained in my cocktail...have not tried getting off it, so I can't accurately describe the effects it is really having on me...but this is one of the most effective cocktails I have tried, so I do not intend to tweak things just yet
Posted by Marty on July 17, 2008, at 18:02:05
In reply to Re: Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI?, posted by dapper on July 17, 2008, at 16:43:07
> so I do not intend to tweak things just yet
Wise decision... for a RETARD !!! ;) Just kidding buddy
For people who doesn't know, the med TRIVASTAL complete name is "TRIVASTAL RETARD" but it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with 'meds for retard' / mental retardation etc... so now you know what was the inside joke here :)
Thanks for the info.. I'm looking forward trying this one in the future and we'll report how I felt on it.. maybe it could help you identify some parts of the effect on you.
/\/\arty
Posted by bearfan on July 4, 2009, at 20:13:11
In reply to Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI?, posted by atmlady on July 9, 2008, at 12:31:27
I haven't heard any major contraindications, although most likely it would be best to avoid taking multiple antidepressants if you could avoid it.
Posted by Brainbeard on July 10, 2009, at 16:49:39
In reply to Stablon (tianeptine) with SSRI?, posted by atmlady on July 9, 2008, at 12:31:27
Reacting to the original question: although through a (completely) different mechanism than the SSRIs, the net result of tianeptine's actions on the serotonergic system is in part identical to the SSRIs. The juicy details:
'Chronic administration of tianeptine increases the density of serotonin innervation in the forebrain. (.....) like SSRIs, tianeptine promotes growth of serotonergic axons in the layer IV of the neocortex and forebrain limbic structures, notably the shell region of the nucleus accumbens.' (From David Pearce's 'The Good Drug Guide'; http://www.tianeptine.com/index.html).
Preskorn states: '(.....) tianeptine shares with the classical antidepressants the ability to reduce the expression of the SE transporter mRNA and the number of SE transporter binding sites'.*
To my layman's eyes that seems to come pretty close to serotonin reuptake inhibition after all.
Anyway, the bottom line of all this mumbo-jumbo seems to be that adding tianeptine to an SSRI is not counterproductive but means extra boosting of the serotonergic system (plus, of course, some dopamine boosting, not to mention all the other good stuff tianeptine is doing to your brain).
My personal experience is that tianeptine, like the SSRIs, in the longer term DOES flatten my emotions somewhat, and promotes pleasure seeking behaviour in me, as do the SSRIs.
Dave Pearce seems to have experienced the emotional flattening too, as he writes in his drug diary (http://www.hedweb.com/diarydav/2008.html):'I explored tianeptine (Stablon), which is certainly less anxiogenic [than selegiline, BB]; but eventually my emotions felt flatter rather than deeper, consistent with its reported partial cross-substitution with fluoxetine (Prozac).'
[the reported effect is linked to: http://www.hedweb.com/diarydav/2008.html]Both in theory and in practice, the serotonergic effects of tianeptine might not be that different from the SSRIs after all. Which is not to say that it's not a unique drug with some very interesting properties.
* Sheldon H. Preskorn, Tianeptine: A Facilitator of the Reuptake of Serotonin and Norepinephrine as an Antidepressant?, in: Journal of Psychiatric Practice, Volume 10(5) September 2004, 323-330
This is the end of the thread.
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