![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 5, 2008, at 19:53:49
Hi,
I have sleep apnoea & take modafinil to keep me alert during the day. It's not strong enough though. So I am after something to add to it to give me enough of a boost to be productive all day.
I have taken Ritalin (methylphenidate) but it's not good for me. Makes me feel "speedy" and affects my judgement + I can't stand the "coming down" as it's wearing off.
I can get Dexedrine (Dextroamphetamine) so I really want to know from those of you who have taken both, whether Dexedrine just feels like a stronger version of Ritalin or whether it's totally different. Please tell me your experiences..!
I know there's a promising new group of stimulants being developed called Ampakines, some of which are (Piracetam, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, Phenylpiracetam = Carphedon = Phenotropil).
The VERY new ones sound better again but as far as I can tell they are unavailable, ie CX717.
If you have any experience with these, please tell me too...!
Thanks for the help..! :)
The Tired One *yawn*..... ;)
Posted by dbc on June 5, 2008, at 21:31:50
In reply to Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Molybdenum on June 5, 2008, at 19:53:49
Dexedrine is the superior stimulant in almost all situations if its available. Often even people who have desoxyn (D-Methamphetamine) avaiable to them prefer dexedrine.
Many people describe it almost as "relaxing", i know that sounds absolutely strange but its true.
Posted by Dade on June 6, 2008, at 5:06:52
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by dbc on June 5, 2008, at 21:31:50
> Dexedrine is the superior stimulant in almost all situations if its available. Often even people who have desoxyn (D-Methamphetamine) avaiable to them prefer dexedrine.
>
> Many people describe it almost as "relaxing", i know that sounds absolutely strange but its trueCome on-how many "people have Desoxyn available to them"?.-a VERY VERY seldom scripted med.
thanks
Posted by Molybdenum on June 6, 2008, at 6:15:31
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Dade on June 6, 2008, at 5:06:52
>
> Come on-how many "people have Desoxyn available to them"?.-a VERY VERY seldom scripted med.
>
> thanks
>
>Well if you take a peek at Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desoxyn
Says it's "...indicated for treatment of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), narcolepsy, and exogenous obesity."
Can you imagine a more popular list of disorders? Wish I'd invented it...!
Wiki goes on to say "...Desoxyn's safety and efficacy is well-established. This has allowed the treatment to emerge as a highly profitable return for Ovation's US$40 million acquisition..."
- and this is just the legal end... ;)
Posted by dbc on June 6, 2008, at 6:38:32
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Dade on June 6, 2008, at 5:06:52
> Come on-how many "people have Desoxyn available to them"?.-a VERY VERY seldom scripted med.
>
> thanksSearch for word desoxyn.
Posted by Dade on June 6, 2008, at 7:20:47
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by dbc on June 6, 2008, at 6:38:32
> > Come on-how many "people have Desoxyn available to them"?.-a VERY VERY seldom scripted med.
> >
> > thanks
>
> http://www.addforums.com/
>
> Search for word desoxyn.
>Yes ok-Desoxyn is available can legalally, and in good medical practice be trialled,, usualled after other remedys have been trialed.
It is usualled used in TR Nayrcolepsy or last line ADD/HD.
Thanks to it's infamouus chemical compound name.
Thanks
>
Posted by undopaminergic on June 6, 2008, at 11:16:34
In reply to Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Molybdenum on June 5, 2008, at 19:53:49
>
> I have taken Ritalin (methylphenidate) but it's not good for me. Makes me feel "speedy" and affects my judgement + I can't stand the "coming down" as it's wearing off.
>
> I can get Dexedrine (Dextroamphetamine) so I really want to know from those of you who have taken both, whether Dexedrine just feels like a stronger version of Ritalin or whether it's totally different. Please tell me your experiences..!
>I haven't tried Dexedrine itself - only the milder combination of phenylethylamine (PEA) with selegiline. PEA, however, has the same mechanism of action, so my observations may be of some relevance.
Dexedrine/PEA (DXP) is much more potent than methylphenidate (MPH). The reason for this is that MPH can only potentiate the action of naturally released dopamine (DA) by blocking its reuptake, and in the absence of stimulated neurotransmitter release, MPH is without effect - fortunately, such an extreme situation does not occur in practice. DXP, on the other hand, empties neuronal storage vesicles of their DA content and reverses the direction of the DA transporter, so that it transports large quantities of DA into the synapse - since this occurs in the absence of neuronal firing, DXP causes the release of neurotransmitters that would not have been released if it were not for the drug.
Greater potency of DXP, may mean greater speediness and a more potent effect on judgement. On the other hand, if you're lucky(?), massive synaptic concentrations of DA may cause aninhibition of neuronal firing - probably by enhanced stimulation of presynaptic autoreceptors - and this may be experienced as a paradoxical calming or relaxing effect. This may not last, perhaps due to the desensitation of autoreceptors, and so speediness may follow after an initial period of calming effects. It may be possible to restore the calming effect by increasing the dose. Unfortunately, some areas of the brain - such as the prefrontal cortex - are sensitive to excessive levels of neurotransmitters, so larger doses of DXP may result in executive dysfunction and impairment of working memory. These are some of the mechanisms and factors that may play a role in your success with DXP.
You may find the "coming down" from MPH unpleasant, but wait till you see that of DXP, and all your adverse experiences with MPH will seem exceedingly benign. Remember the storage vesicles that were emptied by DXP? They have to be refilled, and during the time it takes for that process to complete, you will essentially be dopaminergically deficient. To add insult to injury, this refractory period of neurotransmitter replenishment is in addition to the downregulation of receptor density or sensitivity that also occurs with MPH, but that is much more severe with DXP due to its greater potency.
You will become totally dependent on the drug, as you will be anergic and quite possibly dysphoric and anhedonic without it, forcing you to take the drug just to restore the previous baseline of function that you enjoyed prior to starting it. Another plausible development is that of experiencing increasingly intense craving for the drug during any attempts at abstience, so that you become hopelessly entangled in a web of addiction.
If, for some remarkable reason, you do not experience significant tolerance, you may be able to use DXP successfully. Otherwise, however, prolonged use of DXP is unsustainable, or at least unproductive - at least in the absense of coadministration of agents that prevent tolerance - such as possibly memantine or dextromethorphan.
Good luck!
(By the way, I really did exaggerate matters a bit, so you may perhaps not need quite as much luck as it might seem based on the above. ;)
> I know there's a promising new group of stimulants being developed called Ampakines, some of which are (Piracetam, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, Phenylpiracetam = Carphedon = Phenotropil).
>Although at least some of the racetams have AMPA-modulatory actions, they are usually referred to as nootropics rather than ampakines, while the latter term is applied to the more potent and specific AMPA-modulating drugs, such as the CX-series of compounds, including the one you mention below:
> The VERY new ones sound better again but as far as I can tell they are unavailable, ie CX717.
>
Posted by dbc on June 6, 2008, at 12:04:48
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by undopaminergic on June 6, 2008, at 11:16:34
>
> You may find the "coming down" from MPH unpleasant, but wait till you see that of DXP, and all your adverse experiences with MPH will seem exceedingly benign. Remember the storage vesicles that were emptied by DXP? They have to be refilled, and during the time it takes for that process to complete, you will essentially be dopaminergically deficient. To add insult to injury, this refractory period of neurotransmitter replenishment is in addition to the downregulation of receptor density or sensitivity that also occurs with MPH, but that is much more severe with DXP due to its greater potency.
>
Woooah there, this is quite the opposite. The crash from MPH for most people is a sudden hard crash which is extremely abrasive much like its bigger brother cocaine and people often find themselves desiring to stay at a certain level MPH use to avoid this. Dexedrine on the other hand while rewarding at first doesnt like repeated dosing or you experiance some sort of autoreceptor feedback and the only way to fix it is to escalate the dose and if you're sane you will not do this.There is a much higher rate of potential abuse with dexedrine BUT to say anyone who uses it is going to become horribly strung out and addicted like a junkie is silly and we know its untrue. Theres a perfectly well adjusted subsection of people that have been using the drug for years without escalating doses and abusing it.
In the long run the racemic mixtures of amphetamine are more dangerous simply due to the nature of the L-AMP and im pretty certain thats pretty agreed upon.
In all honesty MPH was extremely grating and abrasive of a stimulant and made me think of its bigger uglier brother. While dexedrine was a positive experiance as long as i kept to my normal doseage.
Posted by calamityjane on June 6, 2008, at 12:20:35
In reply to Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Molybdenum on June 5, 2008, at 19:53:49
Comparing Dexedrine and Ritalin is exactly like comparing two different fruits. Just like with fruit, your personal preference will be the determining factor on which is better.
My personal opinion, however, is that you would find Dexedrine more effective seeing as how this is a sleep related issue, and not ADD. It works very well, and the rush is there but is quite different than Ritalin. Dexedrine is quite intense, in a good way.
Word of advice - NEVER up your dosage until absolutely necessary. Once you go up, you cannot go down. (your body adjusts to the up in dosage, and then smaller amounts are no longer effective). Use as small a dose as possible the first time you take it - even if just 5mg. You will be glad you did. Dexedrine is highly addictive, and so you should be very careful with this drug.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 6, 2008, at 18:07:35
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by dbc on June 6, 2008, at 12:04:48
First - thanks for all the info. It helps to hear from those you've actually TAKEN them. The web is so full of circular references - you think you've found ten articles conveying the same idea but then you realise 9 just re-hashed the other one or each other...(!).
> Woooah there, this is quite the opposite. The crash from MPH for most people is a sudden hard crash which is extremely abrasive much like its bigger >brother cocaine and people often find themselves desiring to stay at a certain level MPH use to avoid this.Not sure what you mean here though. Unless you plan on not sleeping again, how do you find yourself staying "..at a certain level MPH use to avoid this [sudden, hard crash]"...? You have to stop taking them all by 5pm +or- a few hrs so be able to sleep, right? So how do you avoid coming down?
>Dexedrine on the other hand while rewarding at first doesnt like repeated dosing or you experiance some sort of autoreceptor feedback and the only way >to fix it is to escalate the dose and if you're sane you will not do this.
>
I'm a bit confused here too. How can Dex be such a widely used treatment if "it doesn't like repeated dosing". I was hoping to just take a little bit of Dex to supplement the modafinil - to give it a bit more power as even on 400mg modafinil I still get yawning & tired by 2pm.
> There is a much higher rate of potential abuse with dexedrine BUT to say anyone who uses it is going to become horribly strung out and addicted like a junkie is silly and we know its untrue. Theres a perfectly well adjusted subsection of people that have been using the drug for years without escalating doses and abusing it.I agree.
>
> In the long run the racemic mixtures of amphetamine are more dangerous simply due to the nature of the L-AMP and im pretty certain thats pretty agreed upon.
>
> In all honesty MPH was extremely grating and abrasive of a stimulant and made me think of its bigger uglier brother. While dexedrine was a positive experiance as long as i kept to my normal doseage.So glad you said that - that's what I am hoping for. To repeat myself..."MP sucks..!"
Thanks again for sharing.... :)
Posted by bleauberry on June 6, 2008, at 18:22:31
In reply to Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Molybdenum on June 5, 2008, at 19:53:49
You might want to explore the various brain stimulants at "smart drug" mailorder websites, some of them you mentioned in your post. While they are usually taken for improving cognitive function and creativity, it is often noted they have stimulative properties that are synergistic with other ones like modafinil.
Treating fatigue with stimulants is usually a road to worsening of the underlying problem. Recently someone here was cured of a longtime illness with a combo that included prozac, modafinil, ritalin, and...the key to keep it all working...memantine. But those stories are very rare. More often than not you will hear stories of good effects at first, tolerance developing to where the drug doesn't do much anymore besides worsened side effects, and worsened psychiatric symptoms of depression, anxiety, or psychosis. Not always, but often enough to respectful of that path.
It might make some good sense to find an alternative or integrative MD who can test you for these specific things:
24 hour 4 sample saliva cortisol (to test for hypoadrenalism)
Thyroid free T3, free T4, total T4, and TSH.Low cortisol can be treated with licorice root and/or physciological replacement doses of hydrocortisone and/or adrenal cortex extract, or sometimes whole adrenal extract.
Thyroid is tricky. Someone can have hypothyroid symptoms and yet the doc says the lab numbers are within normal. Normal isn't good enough. Too broad. Too generalized. What is needed is what is optimal for you, and you only, and only a trial will identify what that is. Even top psychiatrists know that patients can respond to T3 or T4 even when there is no lab number justifying it, as seen in Dr Bob's Tips discussions between various doctors. Visit thyroid madness to learn more.
Basically I feel identifying the underlying cause and slowly treating it is a better longterm solution than using a short-term bandaid that is going to likely make the whole thing worse at some point.
Other things to look at:
Gluten intolerance. Easy to test for. Symptoms include profound fatigue.
If you have silver amalgam fillings in your teeth, you gotta get them out ASAP.
Diet: Heavy on proteins, light on carbs, heavy on raw veggies and fruits, very low on sugars, low caffeine. Takes a couple months to start seeing benefits, but they are longlasting.
Get a prescription for an antibiotic such as Doxycycline or Minocycline, start with 25mg a week, 50mg for a week, then 100mg for a couple weeks. If you have any number of mysterious hidden bacterial or micro-organism causes at the root of your problems, you should feel a lot worse as soon as you start treatment (means lot of hidden things are being killed), and you should feel a lot better in a few weeks.A lot of stuff I know. Focus on the big ones...thyroid, adrenal, antibiotics. A typical MD or psychiatrist probably won't be the one to help you get where you want to go. There are others MDs in the minority, usually integrative, who treat these things routinely.
If you want to stay within the confined world of psychiatry, then look to things such as prozac, duloxetine, desipramine, all of which can synergistically be stimulating in combo with modafinil.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 6, 2008, at 19:55:53
In reply to comparing oranges to apples, posted by calamityjane on June 6, 2008, at 12:20:35
>
> Word of advice - NEVER up your dosage until absolutely necessary. Once you go up, you cannot go down. (your body adjusts to the up in dosage, and then smaller amounts are no longer effective). Use as small a dose as possible the first time you take it - even if just 5mg. You will be glad you did. Dexedrine is highly addictive, and so you should be very careful with this drug.Thanks Ms. Jane,
Sounds like very good advice. I had a little "speed" and benzo habit when I was a teenager and I remember very clearly how unpleasant it was to break them both. The memory of that has stuck with me ever since (20+ yrs). So thanks for reminding me - I will take it very gently.
I also plan to take one weekend per month (or maybe every fortnight if absolutely necessary) without any stims just to reset my sensitivity. Would you like to come over on that weekend? ;) I'm not looking forward to it. It'll be horrible I am sure. I recently returned to using modafinil after finding a cheap source (thanks to someone here) and I have already taken a couple of weekends off. Other than having NO ENERGY, very tired, yawning, etc it really plunged my mood way down to almost despair. So although I know it's necessary to take a break, I am not looking forward to how bad it will get once I have added Dex to my daily cocktail.....;)
:)
Posted by dbc on June 6, 2008, at 19:56:10
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine » dbc, posted by Molybdenum on June 6, 2008, at 18:07:35
> Not sure what you mean here though. Unless you plan on not sleeping again, how do you find yourself staying
>Ever noticed how many extended release formulas there are of MPH? Its somewhere around 15, repeatedly taking IR doses is pretty damn unpleasent for most people.
>
> > I'm a bit confused here too. How can Dex be such a widely used treatment if "it doesn't like repeated dosing".
>It does fine with moderate repeated dosing, i found 3 doses a day of IR every 4 hours or so to be about the limit. If someone decides "well golly i have a term paper due ill just pop my same dosage multiple more times over the next 15 hours ill be fine". No you wont, the dexedrine will not play nice unless you start escalating the dosage. It will be unpleasent and make you a twitchy mess rather than keep lighting up your reward system. Unfortunately, this does give people an incentive to abuse the drug but on the other hand it does stop more casual abuse.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 6, 2008, at 20:21:06
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by bleauberry on June 6, 2008, at 18:22:31
Thanks for the detailed thoughts bleauberry - really appreciate it.
I've spent hours researching the nootropics / smart drugs on the web. The trouble is that there's very little impartial or scientific data out there. Just a zillion anecdotals. Plus of course the blatantly biased advertisements and more annoyingly, the advertisements deceptively "posted" to forums as personal anecdotals.
I've tried to make notes about each one I've found but often find contradictory info on a med. So very hard to work out which to concentrate on. Some are too expensive for me, whereas Piracetam seems to be almost free...! As I said, CX717 sounds promising but of course, it's unavailable.
The other thing is that I'm in Australia and our version of the FDA is very quick to add any new drugs, precursors, isomers, etc to one of the schedules. This means that nearly everything with any shred of evidence to suggest it has a real pharmacological effect, gets put in the category of us needing a local doc's script to be able to legally import. And I don't feel like any legal hassles these days.
Last obstacle is the same one faced in any country where practising medicine carries a lot of liability issues: that it's difficult to find a doc that will prescribe something that's got the possibility of causing harm. Given the lack of scientific studies on some of the nootropics, that's a real prob too. :)
I will take you other suggestions on board too.
Thanks Again. :)
M.
Posted by bleauberry on June 6, 2008, at 21:07:56
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine » bleauberry, posted by Molybdenum on June 6, 2008, at 20:21:06
> I've spent hours researching the nootropics / smart drugs on the web. The trouble is that there's very little impartial or scientific data out there. Just a zillion anecdotals. Plus of course the blatantly biased advertisements and more annoyingly, the advertisements deceptively "posted" to forums as personal anecdotals.
>Yeah, too bad. But ya know, even with the most heavily researched stuff, it all means nothing until one actually swallows the pill to see what it does to them personally.
I have hung out other forums a lot, a real lot, ones that specialize in things like mercury chelation, hypoadrenalism, and thyroid. Common symptoms in all these groups are fatigue, brain fog, and depression. Many actual people have used the smart drugs. Based purely on my own anecdotal observance, the two biggest players are Hydergine and Piracetam, often in combination. In the book Amalgam Illness by PHd Andrew Cutler, he personally took Hydergine for fatigue and brain fog during mercury chelation rounds, and it is mentioned several times in his book as a useful supplement. Piracetam seems to somehow synergize with it for a unique effect that neither alone provides.
With that in mind, I still think it is crucial to get a detailed critical look at thyroid optimization and adrenal status. And a round of blind antibiotic use is pretty straight forward with the potential for surprising results. If there is evidence an antibiotic could help, for example with a strong negative reaction on the first few days (lots of endotoxins from lots of things being killed), my doctor has a protocol that involves two antibiotics of different mechanisms that need to be taken for minimum 3 months.
I only say this because: I have lab diagnosed hypoadrenalism, but for some weird reason hydrocortisone made me more fatigued and more depressed...my "fairly normal" thyroid numbers look more like hypothyroid in the eyes of a discerning expert...and when I was given Doxycycline to treat a skin infection, I noticed my energy and endurance improved dramatically. The more critters that were killed, the better I felt physically and psychiatrically. I even had one day of pure total remission, this after years of drug failures and ECT failure. There isn't enough science behind it. It is just one of those things you have to try and see.
Doxycycline didn't do a thing for the skin infection. But wow did it help in other unexpected ways. I found it hard to tolerate. Doc switched me to Minocycline and it has been 3 days now. If it goes anything like Doxy did, I don't expect to see any hint of energy benefit for about 2 weeks. This time though the treatment is supposed to go minimum 3 months, versus the short 2 weeks for a normal skin infection.
Just something else to ponder. All I know for sure is that your fatigue is not just some mysterious thing...it has a definite cause and a definite way to defeat that cause, totally unrelated to any talk of using stimulants to merely counter the symptoms.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 6, 2008, at 21:23:05
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine » Molybdenum, posted by bleauberry on June 6, 2008, at 21:07:56
Thanks bleauberry,
my fatigue is definitely cause by my central sleep apnoea (CSA). I stop breathing up to once a minute & then when my blood CO2 rises, another part of the brain that handles "survival" takes over and I then hyperventilate. I do this all night apparently - all confirmed with sleep studies. CSA is much rarer than Obstructive Sleep Apnoea, which most people have heard of. CSA is usually caused by brain damage (head injury) or heart failure. I've been checked for both of them & don't have either.
So in my case I know the cause but I can't do much about it other than pep myself up enough to work during the day. So the best I'll ever feel is what a normal person feels with chronic sleep deprivation + some good stimulants. I'll probably die younger than I ought to re this but I only worry about things I can change.
:)
Posted by undopaminergic on June 7, 2008, at 17:00:16
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by dbc on June 6, 2008, at 12:04:48
> >
> > You may find the "coming down" from MPH unpleasant, but wait till you see that of DXP, and all your adverse experiences with MPH will seem exceedingly benign. Remember the storage vesicles that were emptied by DXP? They have to be refilled, and during the time it takes for that process to complete, you will essentially be dopaminergically deficient. To add insult to injury, this refractory period of neurotransmitter replenishment is in addition to the downregulation of receptor density or sensitivity that also occurs with MPH, but that is much more severe with DXP due to its greater potency.
> >
> Woooah there, this is quite the opposite. The crash from MPH for most people is a sudden hard crash which is extremely abrasive much like its bigger brother cocaine and people often find themselves desiring to stay at a certain level MPH use to avoid this.
>A stable level of MPH should be maintained until you're ready to retire for the day. This means at least three repeated doses of immediate release products, or one or at most two of Concerta or other extended release formulations.
Many years ago when I tried MPH the first time, I did notice a bit of a crash, but these days it's so exceedingly subtle that I rarely notice until I look at the clock at and see that it's the time it should be wearing off. Furthermore, the greatly worsened lethargy that occurs if one doesn't take PEA is not noted with MPH, and it sometimes takes a few hours after waking before I take MPH - such a thing was unthinkable with PEA, which always had to be one of the first things done in day in order to ascend from the fatigue and get started. Finally, the withdrawal syndrome that occurs upon cessation of PEA or even just selegiline, is much more prolonged and severe than anything I've ever noted with MPH.
I suppose it could be that PEA is more destructive than dextroamphetamine, but the latter is generally considered more potent in practically every respect. On the other hand, the withdrawal symptoms certainly occur fast after frequent intake of PEA is stopped, and it's much easier to mainlain stable levels of dextroamphetamine. However, this doesn't explain why the withrawal syndrome upon cessation would be more prolonged than with dextroamphetamine, and I don't think it would be.
I'm not sure whether MPH or cocaine is the bigger brother, as MPH is slightly more potent and considerably longer lasting, although cocaine is certainly more popular - and more suitable - for abuse. Anyway, a crash from intranasal, intravenous, or inhaled administration is likely to be harder, and to occur sooner, and it's really interesting to hear that there are people who experience phenomena resemling that with oral MPH products.
> Dexedrine on the other hand while rewarding at first doesnt like repeated dosing or you experiance some sort of autoreceptor feedback and the only way to fix it is to escalate the dose and if you're sane you will not do this.
>Those using the drug medically rarely take repeat doses in a short amount of time, but at least two, and sometimes three doses a day would generally be required with the immediate release products, as opposed to the spansules, etc.
> In the long run the racemic mixtures of amphetamine are more dangerous simply due to the nature of the L-AMP and im pretty certain thats pretty agreed upon.
>I think the L-isomer is probably more dangerous in terms of cardiovascular risks, but I would certainly consider the D-isomers of both amphetamine and methamphetamine more addictive, and almost certainly more neurotoxic, although that is mainly relevant at doses higher than those used therapeutically.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 8, 2008, at 19:52:35
In reply to Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Molybdenum on June 5, 2008, at 19:53:49
Hi there,
anyone else have experience with these two meds?
In particular, where you needed a "clear headed" stimulant effect rather than for AD(H)D or the like. Plus where you use(d) them on an on-going basis rather than occasionally.
Thanks :)
Mr. Be Damned.
Posted by Sigismund on June 9, 2008, at 1:58:19
In reply to Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Molybdenum on June 5, 2008, at 19:53:49
I'd prefer Dexedrine to Ritalin if I had to choose.
Ritalin is the kind of drug that would keep me holed up in the library.
I can imagine taking Dexedrine and talking to people.I don't like piracetam.
Posted by Dade on June 10, 2008, at 4:56:05
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Sigismund on June 9, 2008, at 1:58:19
I was scripted 4, 20mg Ritalin SR tabs=120 month and then sent for review, where upon my 'Dr feelgood' gave me 20mgs IR Dex.
I found the brand name Ritalin 20mgSR gave good effects as far as concentration went, but due to different MOA caused "very good wellbeing effect"
Dex 5mg tabs caused a greater focusing on anything i was doing effect, reguardless of what that was.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 10, 2008, at 5:20:08
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Sigismund on June 9, 2008, at 1:58:19
> I'd prefer Dexedrine to Ritalin if I had to choose.
>
> Ritalin is the kind of drug that would keep me holed up in the library.
> I can imagine taking Dexedrine and talking to people.
>
> I don't like piracetam.Hey Sigismund,
so you're saying the Ritalin puts you on edge but the dex makes you more outgoing? Did you find the dex affected your judgement much? And what dose were you taking / how often / how long did it last please?
While I'm firing questions, can you describe how the piracetam made you feel?
Thanks :)
M.
Posted by Molybdenum on June 10, 2008, at 5:35:00
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine, posted by Dade on June 10, 2008, at 4:56:05
> I was scripted 4, 20mg Ritalin SR tabs=120 month and then sent for review, where upon my 'Dr feelgood' gave me 20mgs IR Dex.
>
> I found the brand name Ritalin 20mgSR gave good effects as far as concentration went, but due to different MOA caused "very good wellbeing effect"
> Dex 5mg tabs caused a greater focusing on anything i was doing effect, reguardless of what that was.Thanks Dade,
it's just bizarre the different effects people get from these meds.
Because my sleep apnoea gives me chronic tiredness, I think it probably affects the way I perceive the effects of these drugs too. With the Ritalin I always felt like a tired person who had taken "uppers". Sure I got a bit of energy and (undesirably for me) a little "speedy" feeling, but it was always like a layer spread on top of my underlying tiredness. So when it started to wear off, I just felt wretched.
The only stim I'm currently taking is 200mg modafinil twice a day. I don't have a clue why, but it seems to cancel my tiredness - at least a large component of it and for me there's zero "coming down" phase. I do get yawning & tired by 3-4pm, but it's more of a "back to normal" feeling than the "retribution" I got from Ritalin.
I hope my sleep doc goes for the idea of adding the dex. Two weeks til my appointment - wish me luck..!
Posted by Dade on June 10, 2008, at 5:48:35
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine » Dade, posted by Molybdenum on June 10, 2008, at 5:35:00
> > I was scripted 4, 20mg Ritalin SR tabs=120 month and then sent for review, where upon my 'Dr feelgood' gave me 20mgs IR Dex.
> >
> > I found the brand name Ritalin 20mgSR gave good effects as far as concentration went, but due to different MOA caused "very good wellbeing effect"
> > Dex 5mg tabs caused a greater focusing on anything i was doing effect, reguardless of what that was.
>
> Thanks Dade,
>
> it's just bizarre the different effects people get from these meds.
>
> Because my sleep apnoea gives me chronic tiredness, I think it probably affects the way I perceive the effects of these drugs too. With the Ritalin I always felt like a tired person who had taken "uppers". Sure I got a bit of energy and (undesirably for me) a little "speedy" feeling, but it was always like a layer spread on top of my underlying tiredness. So when it started to wear off, I just felt wretched.
>
> The only stim I'm currently taking is 200mg modafinil twice a day. I don't have a clue why, but it seems to cancel my tiredness - at least a large component of it and for me there's zero "coming down" phase. I do get yawning & tired by 3-4pm, but it's more of a "back to normal" feeling than the "retribution" I got from Ritalin.
>
> I hope my sleep doc goes for the idea of adding the dex. Two weeks til my appointment - wish me luck..!Yes good luck,
Ihave had chronic tiredness, fatigue for a long time.
I used to be treated with 2, 20mg Ritalin SR tabs B.I.D, which was adaquate for a while, however due to an unsatisfactory response with work ect, that was upped to 3, 20mg SR 2x a day, then due to the short response, my specialist added 20mg IR's as needed-which was usually 3x a day, sometimes it's satisfactory, sometimes not.
Posted by Sigismund on June 10, 2008, at 16:22:06
In reply to Re: Ritalin (methylphenidate) vs Dextroamphetamine » Sigismund, posted by Molybdenum on June 10, 2008, at 5:20:08
>so you're saying the Ritalin puts you on edge but the dex makes you more outgoing?
Yes
>Did you find the dex affected your judgement much?No, not at normal doses. Well, maybe it does? Amphetamine is not great for me.
>And what dose were you taking / how often / how long did it last please?5mg tablets. The effect is much more long lasting than with Ritalin, though not so long acting as methylamphetamine. 5mg twice a day would do me.
>While I'm firing questions, can you describe how the piracetam made you feel?Piracetam and the similar drugs gave me a sense of focus that was a bit of a strain and a cold unpleasant feeling.
This is the end of the thread.
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