![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 15:24:36
My pdoc advised me to reduce my Nardil by 15 mg (down from 45) to try to combat the insomnia. This was two days ago and I'm not feeling as perky and energetic as I was before..
My question is, would I be feeling the reduction this soon?? My feeling is that if 30 mg doesn't make me feel as good as 45 mg, then I'll take the insomnia at 45..because other than the dreaded insomnia, I haven't felt this good in years!
Posted by ny2bk on December 16, 2007, at 16:47:06
In reply to Reducing nardil question, posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 15:24:36
> My pdoc advised me to reduce my Nardil by 15 mg (down from 45) to try to combat the insomnia. This was two days ago and I'm not feeling as perky and energetic as I was before..
>
> My question is, would I be feeling the reduction this soon?? My feeling is that if 30 mg doesn't make me feel as good as 45 mg, then I'll take the insomnia at 45..because other than the dreaded insomnia, I haven't felt this good in years!
>
>i could be wrong,but with almost all assurance i can say that insomnia or at the least sleep disturbance is a infamous and unfortunate unavoidable side effect of the two major maois,similiar to the diet situation.
Im not sure changing the dose,especialy when its a dose that is producing benifits will do much good as the insomnia usualy is not too dose dependant.
Rather working vigantly with various options to treat the insomnia seems to be the best way.
Giving up a therputic effect is terrable especialy if its not gonna be the answer.
Posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 17:20:20
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by ny2bk on December 16, 2007, at 16:47:06
> > My pdoc advised me to reduce my Nardil by 15 mg (down from 45) to try to combat the insomnia. This was two days ago and I'm not feeling as perky and energetic as I was before..
> >
> > My question is, would I be feeling the reduction this soon?? My feeling is that if 30 mg doesn't make me feel as good as 45 mg, then I'll take the insomnia at 45..because other than the dreaded insomnia, I haven't felt this good in years!
> >
> >
>
> i could be wrong,but with almost all assurance i can say that insomnia or at the least sleep disturbance is a infamous and unfortunate unavoidable side effect of the two major maois,similiar to the diet situation.
>
> Im not sure changing the dose,especialy when its a dose that is producing benifits will do much good as the insomnia usualy is not too dose dependant.
>
> Rather working vigantly with various options to treat the insomnia seems to be the best way.
>
> Giving up a therputic effect is terrable especialy if its not gonna be the answer.Yes, I agree..however, my sleep meds weren't cutting it, even though we increased the seroquel..he suggested trying the reduction for a week, but I think I may just go back to the 45 mg dosage..don't want to fool with success..
Posted by Phillipa on December 16, 2007, at 17:25:52
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 17:20:20
Thought nardil was supposed to help anxiety if anxiety is helped then wouldn't insomnia be as to me they are the same beast. Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on December 16, 2007, at 18:55:08
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question » Justherself54, posted by Phillipa on December 16, 2007, at 17:25:52
> Thought nardil was supposed to help anxiety if anxiety is helped then wouldn't insomnia be as to me they are the same beast. Phillipa
They're not the same. It's true that feeling anxious could interfere with sleep, but insomnia is another animal altogether.
gg
Posted by Phillipa on December 16, 2007, at 19:46:54
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question » Phillipa, posted by gardenergirl on December 16, 2007, at 18:55:08
GG well you just taught me something. So I guess my insomnia is gone leaving anxiety during the day or is the valium at bedtime letting me sleep? How to find out? Phillipa
Posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 21:32:08
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question » Phillipa, posted by gardenergirl on December 16, 2007, at 18:55:08
> > Thought nardil was supposed to help anxiety if anxiety is helped then wouldn't insomnia be as to me they are the same beast. Phillipa
>
> They're not the same. It's true that feeling anxious could interfere with sleep, but insomnia is another animal altogether.
>
> ggNo kidding gg, nardil induced insomnia is another animal..I'm not anxious when I go to bed..just can't fall asleep easily (and am drugged to the nines) and then wide awake at 3 or 4..frustrating side effect to be sure..
>
>
Posted by ny2bk on December 16, 2007, at 23:57:36
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 21:32:08
> > > Thought nardil was supposed to help anxiety if anxiety is helped then wouldn't insomnia be as to me they are the same beast. Phillipa
> >
> > They're not the same. It's true that feeling anxious could interfere with sleep, but insomnia is another animal altogether.
> >
> > gg
>
> No kidding gg, nardil induced insomnia is another animal..I'm not anxious when I go to bed..just can't fall asleep easily (and am drugged to the nines) and then wide awake at 3 or 4..frustrating side effect to be sure..
> >
> >
>
>I found the worst part of MAOI insomnia is when you never DO get to sleep,then in the morning your,or ill say I AM conflicted as to if i should take my normal morning dose,fore at this point with no sleep i fear it would make me maniac.
FYI- I dont wanna post more than is asked,but i will say being on a MAOI for so long ive sorta devised a strategy on attacking the insomnia that rides along with it.
Posted by Justherself54 on December 17, 2007, at 0:23:42
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by ny2bk on December 16, 2007, at 23:57:36
> > > > Thought nardil was supposed to help anxiety if anxiety is helped then wouldn't insomnia be as to me they are the same beast. Phillipa
> > >
> > > They're not the same. It's true that feeling anxious could interfere with sleep, but insomnia is another animal altogether.
> > >
> > > gg
> >
> > No kidding gg, nardil induced insomnia is another animal..I'm not anxious when I go to bed..just can't fall asleep easily (and am drugged to the nines) and then wide awake at 3 or 4..frustrating side effect to be sure..
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> I found the worst part of MAOI insomnia is when you never DO get to sleep,then in the morning your,or ill say I AM conflicted as to if i should take my normal morning dose,fore at this point with no sleep i fear it would make me maniac.
>
> FYI- I dont wanna post more than is asked,but i will say being on a MAOI for so long ive sorta devised a strategy on attacking the insomnia that rides along with it.What is your strategy..I'd really like to know..thanks
Posted by gardenergirl on December 17, 2007, at 0:37:59
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question » gardenergirl, posted by Phillipa on December 16, 2007, at 19:46:54
> GG well you just taught me something. So I guess my insomnia is gone leaving anxiety during the day or is the valium at bedtime letting me sleep? How to find out? Phillipa
I don't really know how to find out in your case. I guess I'd just go with what's working, eh?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 17, 2007, at 0:40:57
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 21:32:08
> No kidding gg, nardil induced insomnia is another animal..I'm not anxious when I go to bed..just can't fall asleep easily (and am drugged to the nines) and then wide awake at 3 or 4..frustrating side effect to be sure..
Oh yes, that sounds familiar. What finally worked for me in dealing with the early awakening was Ambien. I now also take Provigil, and that's helped, too, though I'm not sure exactly how. I don't need Ambien every night now, which is nice.
Do what you can about the insomnia. Sleep is an important part of mental health, and if you can get that under control somehow, it will probably help the Nardil work better for you, too.
Good luck,
gg
Posted by ny2bk on December 17, 2007, at 8:46:09
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by Justherself54 on December 17, 2007, at 0:23:42
> > > > > Thought nardil was supposed to help anxiety if anxiety is helped then wouldn't insomnia be as to me they are the same beast. Phillipa
> > > >
> > > > They're not the same. It's true that feeling anxious could interfere with sleep, but insomnia is another animal altogether.
> > > >
> > > > gg
> > >
> > > No kidding gg, nardil induced insomnia is another animal..I'm not anxious when I go to bed..just can't fall asleep easily (and am drugged to the nines) and then wide awake at 3 or 4..frustrating side effect to be sure..
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I found the worst part of MAOI insomnia is when you never DO get to sleep,then in the morning your,or ill say I AM conflicted as to if i should take my normal morning dose,fore at this point with no sleep i fear it would make me maniac.
> >
> > FYI- I dont wanna post more than is asked,but i will say being on a MAOI for so long ive sorta devised a strategy on attacking the insomnia that rides along with it.
>
> What is your strategy..I'd really like to know..thanks
NOTE- The post seems to go off topic but does result in whole and full to the sleep issue lol.Well sleep sometimes feels like an enemy,so im not sure i ever seen a 100 percent remedy myself.
However ive come to look at it this way,...i lift weights,and for years i would get stronger,however would not actualy GROW but rather stay the same size.
Sine im obsessive with routines,i would be strict on my workouts,# of sets weight,time of workout etc.
It was only when my illness almost fully disabled me that i HAD to change,and i began lifting when i could,how i could,changing almost every aspect.I began to grow quickly and noticably from 180 to approx 250 which is where im now.
Ok to bring this back to topic,my thinking is sleep remedies,like muscle training,is subject to keeping the mind guessing.
When i would take the same aid such as say ambien,it would quickly POOP OUT,this went for much of most sleep meds.
What i started to do was create a aresanal,it consists of Nuerontion,klonopin,xanax.
I take these three in crumb like increments,first time i take usualy the same amount to create the base,i.e same amount of all three,again in tiny doses.
I lay down,and see if that alone allows me to sleep.If it does not,ill add a tiny pieace of ONE of the three and wait a adequate time,depending on how i feel,maybe 20 min,30,so on.
I continue to do this trying hard to learn to just rest and not think about sleep.Usualy unless a rough night or other situation,the first base dose works.However i almost never add more then a 2nd cycle,meaning,
base dose of three,small increment of just one alone,...second increment of just one alone.
Ive had a friend do this and she was amazed and how more normal her wakening was compared to almost forcing herself to sleep on a single sleep med.
Keep in mind,again i use miniscure amounts,im not looking for the combo to knock me out,instead what i get is when i am mentaly tired i can lay down and my mind wont fight me drifting away.
Common doses i use are
Nuerontion - Chalk tablets of 600 mg which allow me to easly break it apart using small pieaces which i can only assume would be appox 100 mg.
Klonopin - half of a half of a .5 tab
xanax - this is for me a strong sedative,i use at times so small amounts of a 1 mg tab its almost dust.
I know the above might not be the easist to obtain from a doc,but im certain other ones can be used instead,id only strongly recomend nuerontion be in the mix,as well as at least 3 other options.
When i used less,just nuerontion and xanax,well the sleep was just simply harder to achieve,as well as less of a restorive feel to the quality of sleep.
I actualy am planning slowly to add a OTC to it looking at a small amount of a L THEANINE capsule under my tongue.
Sorry for the long post.
Posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2007, at 20:10:27
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by ny2bk on December 17, 2007, at 8:46:09
Jeez with the total of 20mg of valium and no benzo lmg of xanax is like candy to me and it takes ages to fall asleep. Wish they would formulate a sleep aid like a mack truck. Phillipa
Posted by bulldog2 on December 18, 2007, at 10:31:29
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question » ny2bk, posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2007, at 20:10:27
> Jeez with the total of 20mg of valium and no benzo lmg of xanax is like candy to me and it takes ages to fall asleep. Wish they would formulate a sleep aid like a mack truck. Phillipa
Have you ever tried benadryl? 50 to 100 mg of benadryl added to my klonopin at night helps me sleep.
Posted by Phillipa on December 18, 2007, at 18:59:54
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by bulldog2 on December 18, 2007, at 10:31:29
Bulldog really as I've only taken benadryl once and it was in response to bee stings and all it did was make me feel wierd no sleep? This was during the day. Phillipa
Posted by bulldog2 on December 19, 2007, at 15:34:27
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on December 18, 2007, at 18:59:54
> Bulldog really as I've only taken benadryl once and it was in response to bee stings and all it did was make me feel wierd no sleep? This was during the day. Phillipa
50 to 100 mg of benadryl with a benzo at night has a very synergistic sleep inducing effect.
Posted by DavidLA on December 19, 2007, at 22:15:13
In reply to Reducing nardil question, posted by Justherself54 on December 16, 2007, at 15:24:36
I have been taking Nardil for almost 10 years. YMMV, but I take Trazadone every night to sleep and it works like a charm. The only downside I experience is a hangover effect in the morning depending upon how much I take and how late I go to sleep. Lots of coffee helps.
Best of luck,
DLA
Posted by Justherself54 on December 20, 2007, at 7:02:35
In reply to Re: Reducing nardil question, posted by DavidLA on December 19, 2007, at 22:15:13
I've gone back to my regular dose of 45 mg as I found no difference with the insomnia..unfortunately I can't take trozadone, as I get the hangover for the whole next day..some nights are getting better..I'm still very restless and wake easily. I've found that if I eat anything past 6 p.m. I awake during the night with heartburn (I've never had trouble with heartburn)..so I'm learning as I'm going..
So far it's been the most effective AD for energy I've ever taken other than paxil which made me manic. I have no apathy. I feel a little on the hypomanic side, but nothing my pdoc is concerned with at this point.
In fact, if I continue to show stability, there is hope that I may be able to return to work, after 2 years on disability..so insomnia, heartburn, the occasion wobbly legs aside, it's the best I've been on in the 20 some years I've been dealing with my mood disorder..every SSRI I've taken has pooped out on me..I'm hoping that Nardil's reputation for longevity will be the key to success..
Thanks to everyone who responded..greatly appreciated..
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.