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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 4, 2007, at 18:45:13
How to get out of jail without using my get out of Jail Card Zyprexa.
This is the game I play, if I didn't have Zyprexa what would I do? Because Zyprexa has been my get out of Jail card so many times, I sometimes have actually felt quite good on it.
But I think what would I do if I didn't have that drug. What works, what doesn't work and yet nothing else really seems to help that much.
And it sort of scares me because I can see so little hope on the horizon, it would just be endless apathy and feelings of nothingness, emptiness.
I know it sounds really stupid but I have to find other things to work besides Zyprexa because if that ever fails on me then I'm left with nothing. If that makes sense.
I know if I was somebody who was suffering who didn't even have that to help me then I would be thinking for God sake woman just take the drug and stop complaining, stop worrying about it but years ago antidepressants worked really well and now they don't and I don't know why. The same thing could happen with Zyprexa.
Denise
Posted by Phillipa on September 4, 2007, at 22:12:25
In reply to How to get out of jail without using my card., posted by deniseuk190466 on September 4, 2007, at 18:45:13
Denise no ad ever really worked for me only the benzos now they are not the same and I can't make it change. I'm doing the theraphy hopefully some help there. Don't know either. Phillipa
Posted by Brody on September 5, 2007, at 9:20:04
In reply to How to get out of jail without using my card., posted by deniseuk190466 on September 4, 2007, at 18:45:13
Hi Denise, If you know that you are going to be doing the CBT thing, but you have to wait a YEAR (!!), you might want to try a little "dip" into the treatment method on your own. I can give you the name of a workbook that my therapist is using with me.... I know there are dozens of books, but I can't recommend any of the others.
Of course it isn't the same as having a therapist to guide and prompt you through the work, but it might be very revealing and provide some relief in the meantime?
It is "Succcessful Problem Solving", by Matthew McKay, Phd.
You may be able to get one at a bookshop over there.... A good place to get one very inexpensively online is at a book search site called fetchbooks.com or, I got mine at eBay. I'm not familiar with the overseas shipping expenses... maybe unreasonable?
As I have stated at PB before... I could not do the CBT until I had my flaming depression and anxiety calmed down to a dull roar with meds...
All the best,
Janet
Posted by rvanson on September 5, 2007, at 17:43:29
In reply to How to get out of jail without using my card., posted by deniseuk190466 on September 4, 2007, at 18:45:13
> How to get out of jail without using my get out of Jail Card Zyprexa.
>
> This is the game I play, if I didn't have Zyprexa what would I do? Because Zyprexa has been my get out of Jail card so many times, I sometimes have actually felt quite good on it.
>
> But I think what would I do if I didn't have that drug. What works, what doesn't work and yet nothing else really seems to help that much.
>
> And it sort of scares me because I can see so little hope on the horizon, it would just be endless apathy and feelings of nothingness, emptiness.
>
> I know it sounds really stupid but I have to find other things to work besides Zyprexa because if that ever fails on me then I'm left with nothing. If that makes sense.
>
> I know if I was somebody who was suffering who didn't even have that to help me then I would be thinking for God sake woman just take the drug and stop complaining, stop worrying about it but years ago antidepressants worked really well and now they don't and I don't know why. The same thing could happen with Zyprexa.
I spoke with you a few weeks back as to your adhedonic condition and your ECT propects and I have been finding this herb to be quite motivating since then, as I am treatment resistant too.I dont know if its available in the UK but maybe its worth a try if you can get it.
Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 6, 2007, at 16:09:04
In reply to Re: How to get out of jail without using my card. » deniseuk190466, posted by rvanson on September 5, 2007, at 17:43:29
Hi rvanson,
What herb would that be then, you didn't actually say the name.
Don't say cannibis because that doesn't help me.
Denise
Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 6, 2007, at 16:14:51
In reply to Re: How to get out of jail without using my card. » deniseuk190466, posted by Brody on September 5, 2007, at 9:20:04
Hi Brody,
Thanks for that suggestion, I'll see if I can order it.
Do you think the therapy will help you to come off the medication then? I guess that would be the real test.
I also wonder about CBT, because I know that when medication is helping me I don't even have the same thoughts as I do as when it is not. So therefore there aren't the same thoughts to challenge, I'm like two different people. So I still can't see how CBT can work.
I mean when I'm depressed, I feel sick, tired, anxious, empty, weak, that's a fact. I'm not thinking negatively about how I'm feeling, I'm thinking realistically. I've always tried though not to let those feelings stop me from doing things, although sometimes even though I try I end up giving up. But to me it's like if somebody has a headache, then they do actually have a headache, are they supposed to think "well ok I have a headache and I am in dreadful pain but nevermind I'm going to go out and try and have a good time".
But thanks again and I will order the book and try and be open minded.Denise
Denise
Posted by rvanson on September 7, 2007, at 0:49:30
In reply to To rvanson, posted by deniseuk190466 on September 6, 2007, at 16:09:04
> Hi rvanson,
>
> What herb would that be then, you didn't actually say the name.
>
> Don't say cannibis because that doesn't help me.Hi Denise,
It's called Rhodiola Rosea.
As far as I know its legal in most countries, but you never know with over 100 countries on the planet.
Its available in health food stores here in the US and its for sale on many internet stores too.
Here is the wikipedia link to it:
Posted by Brody on September 7, 2007, at 16:32:17
In reply to To Brody, posted by deniseuk190466 on September 6, 2007, at 16:14:51
>
>
> Do you think the therapy will help you to come off the medication then? I guess that would be the real test. >
>
>I will be happy to give you my take on this, but I am an expert only with regard to my personal experience. There are many people at PB with a different perspective and experience. Perhaps they will jump in here.
Off meds? I don't know. I have been successfully off of AD's for periods of time in between major depressive episodes, however I know that I seem to follow the predicted model for relapsing: There is less time between each successive major depression, and each one lasts longer. And it seemed that there was the ever present dysthmyia, even when the severe episodes were abated.
It may be that I will always need medication. If I do, I hope I will be one of the fortunate ones that manages to find relief from it, even if it takes some trials. I am so grateful for the ones that are working for me right now.
My depression does seem to me to be situational in it's inception.... it is always waiting, ready to pounce and take me down whenever certain stressors are present in my life. And once it gets a grip, I know I have a battle on my hands. That's when the anti-depressants have saved my life.
However, I can look back at the various degrees of severity and duration of the worst depressive periods, and draw parallels to my life circumstances, and more importantly, my method of responding to them.
Since adulthood, (I am 52) I have gone through 4 or 5 different periods of psychoanalysis, and the sum total of my babbling away to psychologists over the course of 30 years didn't produce any significant change in insight that I could detect.... certainly nothing with any lasting consequence.
This does seem quite a bit different to me. CBT is very hands on, with lots of homework, and it is a process that I can logically follow. At the end of which I hope will be a more correct core belief system about myself. Theoretically, these core beliefs affect every thought I have about myself and others and the world I live in. If they are out of whack (do you use that phrase in the UK?), they are likely affecting my behavior, and over time, possibly my mental health.
Some (including the doctor that prescribes my medication) believe that CBT can reduce the incidence of relapse in major depression. That got my attention.
>
>
> I also wonder about CBT, because I know that when medication is helping me I don't even have the same thoughts as I do as when it is not. So therefore there aren't the same thoughts to challenge, I'm like two different people. So I still can't see how CBT can work.>
>
>
Yes! I hear what you are saying! In fact, when I first had to do some "scoring" of my core beliefs about myself, I found it difficult to answer the questions, because my answers today are significantly different than they would have been when I was majorly-depressed a couple of months ago. I could barely get out of a chair. The self loathing was palpable.But I haven't forgotten how that felt. I use my recall and answer questions the way I know I would in a severe depression. I think it doesn't really matter what the scores are.... the work is the same. You just do the work and see what develops.
I have only my own brief experience with it to go by. I know no one personally for whom it has been successful. Like everything else offered up for relieving the pain of depression.... it won't work for all.
>
>
> I mean when I'm depressed, I feel sick, tired, anxious, empty, weak, that's a fact. I'm not thinking negatively about how I'm feeling, I'm thinking realistically. >
>
I know. It's a dreadful, awful, nasty, vicious, debilitating illness. I did not imagine my physical symptoms... they are very real. I will try anything to feel better.
>
> But thanks again and I will order the book and try and be open minded. >
>
>
Denise.... I think you may have hit on it here.... if you do want to give it a go, and if you can, maybe to suspend doubt for the sake of the experiment could be one link to any successful outcome. I figure, what have I got to lose?
Janet
Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 8, 2007, at 12:43:51
In reply to Re: To rvanson » deniseuk190466, posted by rvanson on September 7, 2007, at 0:49:30
Hi Rvanson,
Thanks for this, this is the same herb as Linkadge mentioned.
I'll order some but what is it like compared to something like St John's Wort. I've tried St John's Wort even years ago when I wasn't so bad and I seem to remember it doing didley squat?
Denise
Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 8, 2007, at 12:55:29
In reply to Combination AD Meds + CBT *long post* » deniseuk190466, posted by Brody on September 7, 2007, at 16:32:17
Hi Janet,
I don't think my depression has been situational and I've never had (as far as I can tell major depressive episodes). I think my mood is constantly low and sometimes it just gets lower. Most of the time I feel suicidal although I still work.
To give you an idea, I was dysthymic (looking back) from 17 to 24, then it got worse for no reason at all and then I took antidepressants for 10 years which completely eradicated it. I came off them and then 3 years later suicidal depression set in (for no apparent reason).
Six years later and I have still never gone into a total remission, I had a brief spell between 2003 and 2005 when the Seroxat seemed to start helping me enjoy life again and then 2005 the Seroxat seemed to stop working. Since then my circumstances keep changing but the depression doesn't lift. I've tried lots of anti-depressants and I feel constantly dysthymic with no real appetite for life. The only thing I can count on to help relieve it is Zyprexa.
As far as I am aware I never had any distorted core beliefs and I don't now. I am familiar with the list of Core Beliefs that this expert drew up and said they applied to everyone, to be honest I did look at them and couldn't really say I had any of those core beliefs, unless I was in denial.
Do you always get a complete response with antidepressants and what are you taking now?
Denise
Posted by Brody on September 8, 2007, at 14:31:34
In reply to To Brody, posted by deniseuk190466 on September 8, 2007, at 12:55:29
>
>The only thing I can count on to help relieve it is Zyprexa.
>Hi Denise,
I copied this from Crazy Meds... always an entertaining take on meds there:
Zyprexa: "Odds of it working for depression - Really good. As a stand-alone med for depression it can work but not very often. But when you mix it with an antidepressant for treatment-resistant major depressive disorder no other atypical antipsychotic works as well as Zyprexa (olanzapine) at pulling people out of the abyss of endless days and nights of laying in a bed of dirty, rumpled sheets staring at the walls and ceiling waiting, waiting, waiting for someone to just come in and kill you to finally put an end to it."
I hope I didn't break any rules by copying that!
>
>couldn't really say I had any of those core beliefs, unless I was in denial.
>
>For certain, our histories with depression are quite dissimilar.
It doesn't sound to me as though you are in denial about your thinking. If you have read the material, and a bell of recognition didn't go off in your head, as in: YES! THAT'S WHAT I DO!!", that may be very telling... It seems our only sure commonality is the misery!
I was always aware of my tendancy toward low self esteem and other distorted perspectives, and I knew where they came from. I just couldn't find any help in eradicating them. I wish I could have had this type of help when I was in my 20's.
>
> Do you always get a complete response with antidepressants and what are you taking now?
>
That would be a definite NO. I have had varying degrees of response:SSRIs: Total ZERO, except for constant desire to sleep.
TCAs: Pretty good help from Desipramine. (works on norepinephrine) I was able to go off of it successfully and was off meds for about 2 years.
SNRIs: Wellbutrin provided partial relief with continued dosage raises until 450mg, then Abilify was added and that helped some but it didn't last. Ultimately, this completely pooped out.CURRENT: For the past 4+ months I have been on EMSAM, my first MAOI. My p-doc was very aggressive in raising doses: 2 weeks on 6mg; 2 weeks on 9mg; 1 month on 12 mg. The 12mg was great for the depression but my blood pressure plummeted and I was falling over all the time so we dropped back down to 9mg and I felt some of the previous "boost" diminish. She then added 100mg Provigil, and that has been the secret ingredient that brought everything into the light for me.
There is an increase in anxiety and insomnia for many EMSAM users in the initial weeks. I have handled those times with a little Xanax. I am pretty much off the Xanax now.
Are you taking the Zyprexa now? Do you go on and off of it?
Have you had any of the tests for hormonal imbalances, thyroid problems, food allergies? I have read here that this has been helpful for some.
I wish I knew more about your national health care system. I think they are a good idea in theory... Am I right that the Canadian one works a little better in terms of getting treatment faster? I guess there are med restrictions there as well. I hope I am here to see the day when someone finally comes up with a way to get all of us the equitable treatment we need and deserve. My meds are some of the most expensive on the list, and I would be without them if not for my health insurance. I know how fortunate I am in this regard.
I really hope you can find the formula that will alleviate your depression and that you don't have to wait until you are my age to get there!
Janet
Posted by rvanson on September 9, 2007, at 6:42:00
In reply to Re: To rvanson, posted by deniseuk190466 on September 8, 2007, at 12:43:51
> Hi Rvanson,
>
> Thanks for this, this is the same herb as Linkadge mentioned.
>
> I'll order some but what is it like compared to something like St John's Wort. I've tried St John's Wort even years ago when I wasn't so bad and I seem to remember it doing didley squat?
>
Hi Denise,Well the Rhodiola Rosea is bringing back some of my emotions and even my libido, that have been dormant for many years now, mostly due to the SSRI meds I was taking for so many years, IMO.
Rhodiola is nothing like Saint Johns Wort, which didn't do anything for me either, whatsoever.
IMO, this herb does have a real effect, and it doesn't cause excessive anxiety and jitteryness, like the herb, Ginseng, does.
It's certainly not a cure-all, so far, but its better then most of the crummy AD's I have been on for far too long now.
All in all, I'd say its worth the money to try it before you consider the ECT treatments, and see if it helps you.
Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 10, 2007, at 15:02:13
In reply to Continuation - What is working for me » deniseuk190466, posted by Brody on September 8, 2007, at 14:31:34
Thanks for copying and pasting the bit about Zyprexa.
I will still order the book as it is worth a try, anything is worth trying. I know that I have always had problems getting close to people but I have never really thought have that causing my depression more like the other way round. I feel that my depression sort of stops me from feeling able to trust people with my feelings, after all I have a lot to hide and you can't go round telling people you feel suicidal all the time. When my depression was completely in remission (when antidepressants actually worked in my 20s) I still sort of was a bit of a loner and still a bit wary of people but I was more able to connect with people and feel as though I was on the same planet at least :-)
When I was in my 20s the first antidepressant I took prothiaden a TCA and that got my depression totally in remission, I felt so good. Even when I came off them five years later, I didn't feel as bad as I had before I had taken them. I have tried prothiaden this time round and it hasn't been effective.
I'm glad the Emsam and provigil is working for you. I haven't tried provigil but I have tried Nardil which seemed to make me feel worse (less anxiety) but more depressed every time I tried it. I haven't tried provigil though.
Lately, I just seem to feel as though I'm suffocating all the time, well it's like I'm holding my breath all the time and my whole body feels so uptight, contorted uptight, no matter what I do the feelings seem to be there. It's really unpleasant. Do you ever or did you ever get those sensations?
Denise
Posted by deniseuk190466 on September 10, 2007, at 15:03:37
In reply to Rhodiola Rosea » deniseuk190466, posted by rvanson on September 9, 2007, at 6:42:00
Hi,
I'm going to order some now and give it a try. Does it help with anxiety at all?
Denise
Posted by rina on September 11, 2007, at 18:54:26
In reply to How to get out of jail without using my card., posted by deniseuk190466 on September 4, 2007, at 18:45:13
Denise,
I really applaude you for your honesty and forthright approach in telling your struggle with your AD's and depression. It reminds me of when I was first diagnosed with bipolarl. I was on Effexor at the time and Focalin only. Mind you while on these drugs prior to entering her office this particular day, I wasn't diagnosed bipolarl.A few things I remember from that day was by the time I entered her office, I had bought clothes for Lord knows who because the baby clothes I bought couldn't have been for my kids, they were 6 and 8 at the time. These were infant clothes.
I was talking faster than I could remember what I was saying. I was pacing back and forth, my mind finishing sentences before I started to think along those lines. When that day was all said and done I left here office crying and excited and orders to stop the Focalin 40mg and Effexor 225mg abruptly.
To this day, I still wonder how I survived the withdrawal and the rapid cycling with bp elevation all at once. Not forgetting a wiped out emergency savings account of 8000.00 in less than a weeks time.
Then came the Abilify, which made me feel weird and depressed all the time. There we went to Depakote standing alone again. This was and is a doozy by itself. At 250mg it was okay but at 700 or 750mg I can't remember but I was depressed more than I've ever been in my life. There were days without showers or clothes,no social or family interaction,swatting bugs outside when there were none. Just feeling miserable.
So I'm responding to your post because once again I admire the fact that you've reached out and embraced opinions and advice of others. I wish I was confident enough and had the self-esteem during my tough time to do what your doing. For that, I commend and thank you. Good Luck and I wish you all the best!! Keep me posted.
This is the end of the thread.
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