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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 7:39:15
Guys, i'm going through a strange trip.
I am under a muzzle order so to speak and
told to wait to understand what is going
on with my friend who broke my heart (though
i am apparently misunderstanding the situation
which i am not permitted to understand "right now".So, i am dealing with anxiety, depression and
fear and anger. The Rivotril is helping me a bit
and I am wondering if there is a chance for such
situations to let the bipolar disorder become stronger. But my dr. did not think an increase in lithium was necessary-- at least i've not the bloods back -- soon.I was asked (not by dr. - bless him) if i wanted to see a therapist. As you know i have complete contempt for them and think they are vultures. Sorry about that - some may be nice. It's just that i have as much education and common sense as they do, and i know my friend does too, but we part on the "lack of medication-as-a-cause" philosophy.
You may know that most of the great politicians and generals of all time were actually suffering from some affective disorder and were unmedicated.
Some interesting books on this "A Brotherhood of Tyrants: Manic Depression and Absolute Power" and another Swede author whom i cannot recall now, but will post when he comes to mind-it's a classic scholarly work on the subject.
Thanks for your patience in reading this stuff - i would appreciate feedback on emotional crisis and drugs.
Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on June 16, 2007, at 8:32:34
In reply to Standing in the shadows, posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 7:39:15
I'm sorry to hear you're going through a crisis Squiggles. Stress can aggravate bipolar disorder so it's good you're keeping it under control with the supervision of your doctor.
As you probably know, Winston Churchill suffered from depression most of his life which was said to be a form of manic depression, and might have been behind his grandiose thinking and vast, expansive schemes. I'm not usually very patriotic but hearing these still sends a tingle down my spine.
'Their Finest Hour':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ose_UfL2SGs'Fight Them On The Beaches':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0JsPXg-e1s&mode=related&search=Q
Posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 10:33:04
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on June 16, 2007, at 8:32:34
I don't understand. (Your friend doesn't want to take medication?)
It seems hard for you to respect his decision (?)
Do you really think his life is in danger? If not, do you not think he has the right to decide not to take meds?
There would be people who'd think that I should be on meds, but I know myself. I function better off meds. I would have had to drop out of school if I had to stay on meds (just for example)
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 10:53:39
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows, posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 10:33:04
> I don't understand. (Your friend doesn't want to take medication?) Don't know;
>
> It seems hard for you to respect his decision (?) Have to have the medical facts to make that
decision;>
> Do you really think his life is in danger? If not, do you not think he has the right to decide not to take meds? I don't if his life is in
danger- the statistics say that unmedicated depression is a high risk for suicide. He has a right to kill himself just like the anti-psychiatry brigade says-- that doesn't exactly cheer me up. I think a psychopharmacolgist could have found a drug that doesn't make life so miserable you'd rather take the risk. But he does not want to go to one.
>
> There would be people who'd think that I should be on meds, but I know myself. I function better off meds. I would have had to drop out of school if I had to stay on meds (just for example)You must be an exception. Also, it takes time to know if you will relapse. I relapsed on lithium (crap batch) after feeling wonderful and healthy for six months.
Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on June 16, 2007, at 11:18:15
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 10:53:39
I know you're smart but sometimes a third party can help you see things clearer and your friend too. It's worth a try with meds of course. Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 11:39:02
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on June 16, 2007, at 11:18:15
> I know you're smart but sometimes a third party can help you see things clearer and your friend too. It's worth a try with meds of course. Love Phillipa
I can't see a bloody thing right now. The
IQ of Einstein couldn't help when facts are
completely undisclosed. And that's the way
it's wanted. You think maybe this is an IQ test?Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 13:12:46
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 10:53:39
>the statistics say that unmedicated depression >is a high risk for suicide.
Which is kind of nonsensicle to say since most psychiatric medications have not been proven to reduce the risk of suicide.
The only two medications that have somewhat significant anti-suicide data are lithium and clozapine, but even the case for these is debatable.
If it is true that antidepressants don't reduce suicide, then it would be just as fair to say that the risk of suicide on medication is high.
I would personally only be concerned if he was to stop taking a medication for which the antisuicide effect is unequivocol. Since no such medication exists, why be worried??
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 13:16:30
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 11:39:02
I wouldn't put these medications on a pedistal like this.
Just the fact that in some cases antidepressants might actually increase the risk of suicide tells me that the paitent should have full right to decide to stop meds.
What if you forced somebody to continue to take a medication that was making them suicidal?
What if they offed themselves because they were forced to stay on a med that they did't want to be on?
If would have offed myself on celexa if somebody had forced me to take it, as it was making me highly suicidal.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 16:08:23
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows, posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 13:12:46
> >the statistics say that unmedicated depression >is a high risk for suicide.
>
> Which is kind of nonsensicle to say since most psychiatric medications have not been proven to reduce the risk of suicide.It's not nonsensical-- it's all over the medical sites and PubMed on the net. Do some research.
What kind of proof do you want- a lemming parade?
>
> The only two medications that have somewhat significant anti-suicide data are lithium and clozapine, but even the case for these is debatable.
>
In this case that I know - it was the reduction in imipramine dose that led to suicidal ideation
and attempt. Furthermore, the psychiatrists raised the dose precisely for that reason-- to prevent suicide-- you think they are nonsensical? All of them?
>
> If it is true that antidepressants don't reduce suicide, then it would be just as fair to say that the risk of suicide on medication is high.Huh?
>
> I would personally only be concerned if he was to stop taking a medication for which the antisuicide effect is unequivocol. Since no such medication exists, why be worried??Good for you-- i hope he's not your son, as we
seem to be speaking hypothetically.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 16:10:43
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows, posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 13:16:30
Yeah, it's a legal matter in your mind.
You're not a Jehovah's witness btw;
Posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 17:12:24
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 16:08:23
>It's not nonsensical-- it's all over the medical >sites and PubMed on the net. Do some research.
>What kind of proof do you want- a lemming parade?Yes it is (IMHO). There has not been any conclusive proof that antidperessants reduce the risk of suicide. A few small studies on pub-med do not show whats happening overall. The rate of suicide has not taken a significant drop since the introduction of antidepressants. In some regions the rate of suicide has decreased since the introduction, while it has increased in other regions. Overall, there is no significiant reduction in suicide since the introduction of antidepressants.
>In this case that I know - it was the reduction >in imipramine dose that led to suicidal ideation
>and attempt.The drug itself may not have been preventing suicide. Perhaps it did nothing for suicidal ideation. Perhaps the hell of drug withdrawl was combining with the current state to push a person over the edge?
>Furthermore, the psychiatrists raised the dose >precisely for that reason-- to prevent suicide-- >you think they are nonsensical? All of them?
No, just misguided. A doctor prescribes a drug because it is supposed to decrease depression, and because a decrease in depression is supposed to reduce suicide. It doesn't work that nicely though. A drug company does not need to proove a drug reduces suicide for it to be approved. Therefore the antisuicide effect is just assumed.
>Good for you-- i hope he's not your son, as we
>seem to be speaking hypothetically.My parents had absolutely no clue how I actually felt on antidepressants. My parents and the doctors just believed what they wanted to. My depression did not reduce on AD's, they just shut me up and made me more managable. I just told them I felt better so that they'd stop bothering me. Thats what they wanted to hear.
If my son wanted to stop imipramine I'd tell him to go for it. Imipramine is both genotoxic and cardiotoxic. Only he'd know how the drug made him ultimately feel. Imipramine is dirty. A lot of people have a hard time tollerating it.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 17:19:02
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 16:10:43
>Yeah, it's a legal matter in your mind.
>You're not a Jehovah's witness btw;Are you saying that this person is stopping the medication because of his religius beliefs ?
That would be a different situation as its not only the psychiatric variables that are to be considered.
If the patient's religion tells them they should not take a medication, yet they do believe the medication helps them medically, then there is a problem. True it is still their decision, but the patient is not stopping it based on how they feel about the medical situation.
I would argue that the individual should be allowed to make their own personal decision. If it is a decision based on religion, then often pressures from family/church members are the driving force behind the decision, which is not right.
The decision should be based on the patients core wishes.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on June 16, 2007, at 17:46:47
In reply to Re: Standing in the shadows, posted by linkadge on June 16, 2007, at 17:12:24
I agree with you about one thing - imipramine is a very toxic drug. I took imipramine before the right dx-- it really felt like a pesticide, a poison, horrible! I do suggest that something cleaner like Remeron and a stimulant might be better, IF NEEDED.
Squiggles
> If my son wanted to stop imipramine I'd tell him to go for it. Imipramine is both genotoxic and cardiotoxic. Only he'd know how the drug made him ultimately feel. Imipramine is dirty. A lot of people have a hard time tollerating it.
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> Linkadge
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This is the end of the thread.
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