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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by Karen44 on January 13, 2007, at 22:19:32
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left? » Karen44, posted by blueberry1 on January 13, 2007, at 21:26:17
Thanks blueberry; I will ask my pdoc on Monday about these other options. By the way I used to be a long distance runner until I broke my neck when I was younger. Last year had cervical spine surgery as things had deteriorated over the years. I well remember the runner's high when I would push through the pain and keep going. I used to run alot when I was a teenager and lived in a home with lots of violence and multiple times I was almost murdered. Running was my antidepressant-antianxiety medication.
Karen44
Posted by stargazer on January 13, 2007, at 23:57:09
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left? » Karen44, posted by blueberry1 on January 13, 2007, at 21:26:17
Karen...I agree with blueberry to try a stimulant. I had luck when I took Wellbutrin, Celexa and Adderall together, only noting improvement with the addition of Adderall.
Currently on Emsam 6 mg x 2 mos with initial energy, but then diminishing over past few weeks. Now with addition of stimulant, my depression has improved in terms of energy and positive thinking.
And I know if I didn't go to my pdoc with this suggestion, he would have just increased the Emsam to 9 mg, which in my mind would make me feel better in the short term but I felt I had unresolved ADD symptoms and needed a stimulant, like when I had success with Adderall.
I think when I was on Adderall, my pdoc didn't really know if it was doing anything and he suggested something else. It was only after stopping the Adderall, I knew it was doing something. I can remember saying to him that I felt the depression wascasued by ADD, he disagreed with me. So we started a whole round of new meds including Lamictal, Marplan, Seroquel and Cymbalta, followed by Emsam.
I really think the stimulants are the missing piece in many treatment plans, at least in mine and possibly yours. You have nothing to lose by trying something different, especially since many of us here are now having success with stimulants. Adderall seems to be one of the better ones. That would be my suggestion for you to try.
Good luck Karen...Stargazer
Posted by ryanz on January 14, 2007, at 2:08:46
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 13, 2007, at 17:58:28
Since you are on Emsam already, you might be interested in reading the comments and following the links at the following url:
With regard to ECT, you might want to read this:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=59631
Posted by ronaldo on January 14, 2007, at 7:54:23
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left? » blueberry1, posted by Karen44 on January 13, 2007, at 20:49:08
Karen,
It seems you have taken a vast amount of different medications - none of which have helped. Do you think perhaps you have been over-medicated? Personally I am now embarking on a course of coming off my medications on the grounds that they were not doing me any good, and this being the case, then they have to go.
What do you think would happen to you if you came off all meds? Gradually, on the requisite slow taper, with other meds to make the withdrawal process more bearable? Is it possible that what you are feeling now is not your original illness but your brain's reaction to multiple over-medication? This is just my own idea based on my own course of action with Zyprexa. I have not taken one tenth of the medication you have taken. But I welcome the chance to get my own brain back - hopefully in an undamaged condition.
I realize coming off all meds, except for the natural remedies like fish oil, will be exceedingly difficult for you. You might have to take a year or six months off work. But in the end, hopefully, you will have back a brain restored to the condition it was in before you embarked on medication. By your own admission medications have not done much for you. Perhaps you should show them the door. Sounds much easier than it is in practice. But if there are some medications which you have not tried, and which come recommended, then maybe you should give them a fair trial. If they fail then cleansing your brain may be an option. On the other hand I may be talking a load of tripe. I am going to give it a try for myself though.
Maybe cleansing your brain of all meds might be worth a try before taking the somewhat drastic step of ECT.
ronaldo
Posted by leo33 on January 14, 2007, at 16:18:10
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left? » Karen44, posted by blueberry1 on January 13, 2007, at 21:26:17
Look at the bright side Karen, at least you are able to work and be responsible for yourself, that is good. If I may ask how do you afford all your meds and doctor's visits?
Posted by Karen44 on January 14, 2007, at 20:58:40
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by leo33 on January 14, 2007, at 16:18:10
Thanks to all; I will look into something like theProvigil. Actualy feeling better today and so will see if it lasts. I will not take ECT off the table, but I think I am more than reluctant to potentially throw away 24 years of education. I can't take off work for 6 months or a year; rather I should say that for me that would be the worst thing in the world. I would end up going down the tubes. Being at home for three weeks after surgery put me into a real funk especially given that it was right before Christmas. So, thanks. Yes, I am fortunate to have my job and some good friends.
Karen44
Posted by blueberry1 on January 15, 2007, at 5:55:42
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left? » Karen44, posted by ronaldo on January 14, 2007, at 7:54:23
That's a decent suggestion to go with no meds and see how things are. It probably works for some people. It wouldn't for me though. My brain was screwed up already. First major depression was at age 6 for no reason. If I let my brain return to where it was, that was not a good place.
Posted by stargazer on January 15, 2007, at 9:23:55
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left? » ronaldo, posted by blueberry1 on January 15, 2007, at 5:55:42
B...Have you been meds since you were 6 years old without any time off them? I don't think stopping meds would necessarily take you back to that place since the brain changes constantly and it is unlikely that whatever symptoms you had then would be similar to those you would have today...Just my opinion.
I do believe when you are on meds that are no longer working, sometimes the only way to figure this out is to wean off all or most of them.
I've have done this several times and believe it is a helpful experiment to either prove you may not need meds or start on a new course of meds.
Of course, my pdoc has always advised against doing this, but when you get to the point that you are not getting any better, it becomes a worthwhile or essential decision for "proof" of a condition or need for meds.I once had a beautiful few months without meds which eventually resulted in a crash but it was a necessaary step for me to see that my brain was "broken" and needed treatment.
SG
Posted by blueberry1 on January 15, 2007, at 15:53:23
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?/blueberry, posted by stargazer on January 15, 2007, at 9:23:55
> B...Have you been meds since you were 6 years old without any time off them?
>No. I had serious year-long bouts of major depression off and on, intermingled with year-long periods of feeling fairly ok. Was always very withdrawn. And yet an overachiever. I wasn't put on meds till later in life.
First med was paxil. After a year on it I did ok for 6 months off of it. Thought all was well. I was wrong. Depression struck again out of the blue like it always does and this time it was even worse than ever.
I have had brief med-free times in the last 10 years and they were all so devastatingly crippling that of the two evils - meds or no meds - meds is the lesser of the evils. Trying to find the right ones, or trying to find ones that will work longterm, is a massive struggle. But the struggle without is even worse. Oh well. I'm screwed.
Posted by stargazer on January 15, 2007, at 23:22:22
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?/blueberry, posted by blueberry1 on January 15, 2007, at 15:53:23
Then I'm screwed too since I have had the same history,mostly on meds since 1987 and brief periods off them. Screwed may be too mild a word, but we don't want to be blocked...SG
Posted by Karen44 on January 16, 2007, at 0:50:24
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 13, 2007, at 17:58:28
I am going to try Provigil, and in the meantime arrangements are being made for me to have ECT at one of two different hospitals should it come to that. I really don't want to go that route, but my depression is now impacting on my job.
Karen44
Posted by blueberry1 on January 16, 2007, at 6:04:21
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 16, 2007, at 0:50:24
> I am going to try Provigil, and in the meantime arrangements are being made for me to have ECT at one of two different hospitals should it come to that. I really don't want to go that route, but my depression is now impacting on my job.
>
> Karen44If you think depression is impacting on your job, just wait till you see what ECT does to that. First off, it will take a month or more of treatments, in which time probably 95% of people must take a leave of absence from work. Try explaing that to your boss. If all goes well, and that is a big if, you will be lucky if you remember all the details of your job and how to do it. And don't forget, there are lots of people who have gone through ECT, came out with amnesia and lives changed negatively forever, and their depression is just as bad as ever.
Check out electroshock therapy responses at remedyfind. It is actually one of the lowest ratings of all treatments for depression. Only in literature and hype do they make it sound good. Ask real people.
I sound so negative on ECT. In all honesty there is one person here who does well with it, goes into work the same day he gets shocked, and has minimal problems. According to my doctor, a story like that is very very rare.
A bright side story. One guy at remedyfind went through dozens of monotherapy antidepressants, antipsychotics, mood stabilizers, stimulants, and ECT. Still depressed. He is doing fantastic now. His combo...Cymbalta, Wellbutrin, and Deprenyl. None of them on their own work very good.
Just goes to show you there is always hope, and it shows up a lot of times in combining the right meds.
Posted by stargazer on January 16, 2007, at 10:39:58
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 16, 2007, at 0:50:24
My depression always affected my job and this has been for more than 20 years and I'm still searching inthat situation. For me it's always a day by day struggle. I had a brief moment when I too contemplated ECT but eventually tried something that turned me around, but not for very long. I no longer would try ECT, I have too much experience with it, having worked in the field.
I have quit many jobs because of the depression...Sad but true my career has never been what it could have been but I am thankful I can still work when I feel better, but forget cimbing the career ladder, that is all behind me now. The depression has been a constant since my teens. Brief responses to MAO's showed me I did have the capacity for career success, but the deprssion always returned and made it impossible for me to excel in any positions I had.
I always regret the lost opportunities. I have come to realize I'll never be a superstar but understand once I get this under control again, I will be able to work. Never in a high level, stress ridden field, which tells me that is not where I belong anyway.
SG
Posted by juanantoniod on January 16, 2007, at 17:16:43
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 13, 2007, at 17:58:28
Have you considered VNS Therapy for depression? I had the implant in January of 2006 and I seem to have a little bit of improvement, and I've only been at the therapeutic dose for 6 months. I think that ECT is great for acute, can't get out of bed, depression. But for chronic, low grade, treatment resistant depression, VNS Therapy can work better.
If you've really tried all medications and combos and medication adjuncts, such as stims, then I would say give VNS a look. After you view the Cyberonics Website, vnstherapy.com, if you are still interested, then get the book, "Out of the Black Hole". It's all about VNS for treatment of depression. Also fill out the IVEA form for Cyberonics so that you can start finding a doc in your area to do it, and get started on insurance approval. Let me know if you have any questions.
Best wishes,
Antonio
Posted by Karen44 on January 16, 2007, at 22:52:30
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?/Job impact, posted by stargazer on January 16, 2007, at 10:39:58
> My depression always affected my job and this has been for more than 20 years and I'm still searching inthat situation. For me it's always a day by day struggle. I had a brief moment when I too contemplated ECT but eventually tried something that turned me around, but not for very long. I no longer would try ECT, I have too much experience with it, having worked in the field.
>
> I have quit many jobs because of the depression...Sad but true my career has never been what it could have been but I am thankful I can still work when I feel better, but forget cimbing the career ladder, that is all behind me now. The depression has been a constant since my teens. Brief responses to MAO's showed me I did have the capacity for career success, but the deprssion always returned and made it impossible for me to excel in any positions I had.
>
> I always regret the lost opportunities. I have come to realize I'll never be a superstar but understand once I get this under control again, I will be able to work. Never in a high level, stress ridden field, which tells me that is not where I belong anyway.
>
> SG
StargazerSorry about your situation with jobs. My situation has been very different. I have excelled; I was one of four people accepted into a postdoctoral fellowship program in clinical psychology at Menninger's (then ranked number one in the county). They took four people each year from applicants from not just all over the u.s. but from all over the world. I am not meaning to brag but to make a point that I have exelled and have climbed the career ladder. The only job I ever quit was in 1980 and due to depression that resulted in hospitalization.
I have been researching like crazy about ECT and in the professional journals and looking hard at the data. I have stopped becuase enough is enough in that regard. I know what I would be willing to accept and not accept re ECT. I will be talking to a doctor who does ECT at U of C and one from a hospital closer to my home. I am also going to contact a psychiatrist in Topeka who I know from working at Menninger's and who I know personally as well. I learned by accident that he did or does ECT. I think he will be honest with me. I know I could mess up things with my job, but if something doesn't change, I won't have a job anyway. And, it would not be that easy for me to find another job in my field. Plus I am a few months shy of three years, and I will be retiring. So, yes I hope I don't have to go that route. My husband is a neuropsychologist and very upset that I even consider ECT. At the same time, he said he would not stand in my way.
VNS - I am not so sure it is so safe either any more than ECT.
Posted by juanantoniod on January 17, 2007, at 15:14:21
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?/Job impact, posted by Karen44 on January 16, 2007, at 22:52:30
VNS is much safer than ECT. It is done in *1* outpatient procedure, not many, and none of the following occurs:
Side Effects of Electroshock Therapy
It is well established and documented that memory impairment is the worst side effect and is the one most frequently cited by patients. The other most common side effects are headaches, nausea, confusion and muscle ache or soreness. Over the course of ECT, patients may have difficulty remembering newly learned information. Some patients report memory loss for events that occurred during the day, weeks, and months preceding ECT. Some patients have reported long lasting problems with recall of some of these memories and some patients have claimed they have “permanent brain damage.”> VNS - I am not so sure it is so safe either any more than ECT.
>
Posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 16:28:27
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?/Job impact » Karen44, posted by juanantoniod on January 17, 2007, at 15:14:21
> VNS is much safer than ECT. It is done in *1* outpatient procedure, not many, and none of the following occurs:
>
> Side Effects of Electroshock Therapy
> It is well established and documented that memory impairment is the worst side effect and is the one most frequently cited by patients. The other most common side effects are headaches, nausea, confusion and muscle ache or soreness. Over the course of ECT, patients may have difficulty remembering newly learned information. Some patients report memory loss for events that occurred during the day, weeks, and months preceding ECT. Some patients have reported long lasting problems with recall of some of these memories and some patients have claimed they have “permanent brain damage.”
>
> > VNS - I am not so sure it is so safe either any more than ECT.
> >
>
>
I don't know why, but my pdoc has concerns about VNS, says approval was rushed through the FDA before we have really studied whether or not there will be adverse consequences. What can I say; I am aware of the potential for adverse things happening with ECT.Karen44
Posted by juanantoniod on January 17, 2007, at 18:13:20
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?/Job impact, posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 16:28:27
VNS Therapy for *depression* was rushed through FDA because it is an important therapeutic option that needed to be available to the public. Any adverse effects would have been known by now, because it has been used for *many years* in the treatment of epilepsy. Now, it's almost the second line treatment if the first or second trial of medication fails. Use this information how you wish.
> > VNS is much safer than ECT. It is done in *1* outpatient procedure, not many, and none of the following occurs:
> >
> > Side Effects of Electroshock Therapy
> > It is well established and documented that memory impairment is the worst side effect and is the one most frequently cited by patients. The other most common side effects are headaches, nausea, confusion and muscle ache or soreness. Over the course of ECT, patients may have difficulty remembering newly learned information. Some patients report memory loss for events that occurred during the day, weeks, and months preceding ECT. Some patients have reported long lasting problems with recall of some of these memories and some patients have claimed they have “permanent brain damage.”
> >
> > > VNS - I am not so sure it is so safe either any more than ECT.
> > >
> >
> >
> I don't know why, but my pdoc has concerns about VNS, says approval was rushed through the FDA before we have really studied whether or not there will be adverse consequences. What can I say; I am aware of the potential for adverse things happening with ECT.
>
> Karen44
Posted by ryanz on January 17, 2007, at 21:18:34
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 13, 2007, at 17:58:28
Karen, here's something you might want to read if you have not already:
http://www.breggin.com/Electroshockscientific.pdf
Posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 21:31:31
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by ryanz on January 17, 2007, at 21:18:34
> Karen, here's something you might want to read if you have not already:
>
> http://www.breggin.com/Electroshockscientific.pdf
>
>Yes I have read what he had to say; I think it best that I stop posting on this topic as it is starting to upset me that everyone seems to want to convince me that I should not do ECT. I have read a lot more than you realize - I have talked to people on the etc.org boards, and frankly some of them have been more supportive than anyone here in spite of their difficulties. Some are vehemently opposed to ECT and were significantly damaged. Some have problems but are supportive. Some have had only minor or insignificant memory impairments. I have read all sorts of things, and as I said, I have also critically evaluated lots of journal articles on the subject. I know the risks, and it is up to me what I should do. I am trying other things. You have to live with yourself and your decisions, and I have to live with mine. I am truely sorry I ever posted on the subject as it hurts me that I may do something that is so disapproved of by most everyone here.
I wish you all well with your decisions, and please let me now make mine. Thank you.
Karen44
Posted by halcyondaze on January 17, 2007, at 22:04:57
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 21:31:31
Quoting Peter Breggin on THIS board?
Come on.
I guess you're prepared to stop all of your psychiatric medication, as he advocates?
Let's consider the source here.
I am truly ashamed to be posting here if this is the kind of standard we are now holding ourselves to.
Posted by ryanz on January 17, 2007, at 22:20:42
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 21:31:31
> Yes I have read what he had to say; I think it best that I stop posting on this topic as it is starting to upset me that everyone seems to want to convince me that I should not do ECT. I have read a lot more than you realize - I have talked to people on the etc.org boards, and frankly some of them have been more supportive than anyone here in spite of their difficulties. Some are vehemently opposed to ECT and were significantly damaged. Some have problems but are supportive. Some have had only minor or insignificant memory impairments. I have read all sorts of things, and as I said, I have also critically evaluated lots of journal articles on the subject. I know the risks, and it is up to me what I should do. I am trying other things. You have to live with yourself and your decisions, and I have to live with mine. I am truely sorry I ever posted on the subject as it hurts me that I may do something that is so disapproved of by most everyone here.
>
> I wish you all well with your decisions, and please let me now make mine. Thank you.
>
> Karen44
>Hey: you posted "publicly" not only here but elsewhere such as ect.org asking people's opinions about ECT and their experiences with ECT. You've been soliciting this information while at times often lecturing to others about ECT. You've made it very clear in multiple postings now that you've been trying to quote "educate yourself" and read as much as you can about ECT before making your decision.
All I did was post a simple link to a scientific paper that many people do not know about, including psychiatrists who conduct ECT.
I never made any personal comments at all regarding my opinion or my own experience with ECT on this board, nor did I ever say that you should or should not have ECT. I posted the link because you've been posting your questions and concerns about ECT all over the web. If you don't want people posting links to scientific papers, etc, then by all means do not solicit opinions in the future by posting all over the web.
And, btw, you are not the only one here having serious difficulties with life-threatening depression, and contrary to your comments, I think people 'have' been supportive of you here. Apparently, your idea of support is not to hear other struggling persons' honest opinions and experiences as to your type of concerns and questions, but rather I guess you just wanted responses that amount to, "don't worry, be happy!"
Whatever route you choose in addressing your depression, I wish you the best.
Posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 23:22:44
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by ryanz on January 17, 2007, at 22:20:42
I may have asked opinions, and I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am, however, sorry if some of you think you have to now become hostile. I think I should just stay away from this whole damn board. Just because you may also be depressed doesn't give you the right to attack me. NO MORE.
Karen44
Posted by Karen44 on January 17, 2007, at 23:29:59
In reply to Re: Is ECT all that is left?, posted by ryanz on January 17, 2007, at 22:20:42
> > Yes I have read what he had to say; I think it best that I stop posting on this topic as it is starting to upset me that everyone seems to want to convince me that I should not do ECT. I have read a lot more than you realize - I have talked to people on the etc.org boards, and frankly some of them have been more supportive than anyone here in spite of their difficulties. Some are vehemently opposed to ECT and were significantly damaged. Some have problems but are supportive. Some have had only minor or insignificant memory impairments. I have read all sorts of things, and as I said, I have also critically evaluated lots of journal articles on the subject. I know the risks, and it is up to me what I should do. I am trying other things. You have to live with yourself and your decisions, and I have to live with mine. I am truely sorry I ever posted on the subject as it hurts me that I may do something that is so disapproved of by most everyone here.
> >
> > I wish you all well with your decisions, and please let me now make mine. Thank you.
> >
> > Karen44
> >
>
> Hey: you posted "publicly" not only here but elsewhere such as ect.org asking people's opinions about ECT and their experiences with ECT. You've been soliciting this information while at times often lecturing to others about ECT. You've made it very clear in multiple postings now that you've been trying to quote "educate yourself" and read as much as you can about ECT before making your decision.
>
> All I did was post a simple link to a scientific paper that many people do not know about, including psychiatrists who conduct ECT.
>
> I never made any personal comments at all regarding my opinion or my own experience with ECT on this board, nor did I ever say that you should or should not have ECT. I posted the link because you've been posting your questions and concerns about ECT all over the web. If you don't want people posting links to scientific papers, etc, then by all means do not solicit opinions in the future by posting all over the web.
>
> And, btw, you are not the only one here having serious difficulties with life-threatening depression, and contrary to your comments, I think people 'have' been supportive of you here. Apparently, your idea of support is not to hear other struggling persons' honest opinions and experiences as to your type of concerns and questions, but rather I guess you just wanted responses that amount to, "don't worry, be happy!"
>
> Whatever route you choose in addressing your depression, I wish you the best.Yes I did initially ask for opinions but not for over and over and over and over. I find your post very nasty and cruel. You do not know me at all,and for you to assume I want responses that indicate "don't worry, be happy" is the height of insult. I view your whole post as accusatory and hostile, and then you end with "I wish you the best." How passive-aggressive is that.
Karen44
Posted by ryanz on January 18, 2007, at 0:12:58
In reply to PLEASE tell me we have not resorted to this., posted by halcyondaze on January 17, 2007, at 22:04:57
> Quoting Peter Breggin on THIS board?
I did not "quote" anyone, nor did I post any of my own thoughts and comments pertaining to it. And just who are you to decide what information is mentioned on this board, particularly when it pertains to a published scientific paper in a medical journal?
>
> Come on.That's your own personal opinion of Breggin which some share and some do not. One of the reasons why this paper is relevant is because he lists a lot of negative findings by other ECT researchers that's been swept under the rug or forgotten about. Even if one does not like Breggin himself, the mere listing of references to negative studies on ECT is by itself enough to make the paper valuable.
The same goes with Sackeim and colleagues whom some respect and some hate. Sackeim admitted in video testimony to receiving money from the manufacturer of shock devices and providing advice to them at the same time he was receiving grant money from the government to investigate potential damage from ECT, while not publicly disclosing this in violation of the law and in violation of the honor code followed by researchers who submit entries to medical journals. Nevertheless, I posted a link to information from him as well recently. Sackeim's studies are referenced by the APA.
> Let's consider the source here.
People can read and decide for themselves whether a particular article is of value or not and compare it with other information on their own. They do not need you to do it for them. And that's the idea. There will be no consensus here or anywhere where else when it comes to papers by well-known major ECT opponents like Breggin, or to historical proponents like Fink and Sackeim. People should be able to read the controversial positions by well-known voices from both sides along with other information.
> I guess you're prepared to stop all of your > psychiatric medication, as he advocates?
All I did was post a URL linking to a published scientific paper that he authored. That's it. The only thing in my posting was a URL. I served neither as a an advocate or as an opponent to his views. Stop misrepresenting.
And if Breggin feels that antidepressant medications are overmarketed, overprescribed and often inappropriate for many of the millions of people taking these drugs, then people have a right to know about the position he is taking and his reasons for this regardless of whether you or I or anyone else disagrees with position. He did, afterall, write a book about it which was talked about on major news networks and he is a very well-known and experienced psychiatrist and researcher who is entitled to his opinion and the right to share his opinion and reasoning with others.
>I am truly ashamed to be posting here if this is >the kind of standard we are now holding >ourselves to
Well, feel free to stop posting. I won't argue with you on that, especially if you're going to be incredibly rude along with misrepresenting the actions and intentions of others. I did absolutely nothing to deserve being treated this way in thread. All I did was post a simple URL to a published medical study for purposes of sharing information after which I was personally attacked by you and Karen. I never even wrote about my personal opinion on ECT or my personal experience with it on this board.
The people who behaved inappropriately in this thread are you and Karen, and I offer no apology to her or to you for posting posting a simple html link to a published medical paper.
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