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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on December 17, 2006, at 11:19:11
So, I hear that in depressed patients REM sleep occurs too early on in sleep, and that in normal patients it occurs more frequently towards the latter half of sleep.
So, if I took an anticholinergic agent right before bedtime, to reduce REM sleep. Then set my alarm to wake up half way through the night to take a cholinergic agent to induce REM sleep (thus pulling my REM sleep forward), could this improve mood?
Linkadge
Posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 11:36:45
In reply to manipulating my REM sleep, posted by linkadge on December 17, 2006, at 11:19:11
No idea, but I have heard that scientists are focusing more on deep sleep phase, since it seems to determine the quality of sleep.
Posted by ronaldo on December 17, 2006, at 11:53:36
In reply to manipulating my REM sleep, posted by linkadge on December 17, 2006, at 11:19:11
Hi Linkadge,
Don't we sleep in approx. 4 hour cycles? If so you would have to get up three times in the night to take a tablet. How quick acting are these tablets: anti/cholinergic agents? They would have to act within an hour or two to achieve the desired effect. Personally it all sounds a bit Heath-Robinson to me and I don't think you would get it to work. There must be easier ways?
.....ronaldo
> So, I hear that in depressed patients REM sleep occurs too early on in sleep, and that in normal patients it occurs more frequently towards the latter half of sleep.
>
> So, if I took an anticholinergic agent right before bedtime, to reduce REM sleep. Then set my alarm to wake up half way through the night to take a cholinergic agent to induce REM sleep (thus pulling my REM sleep forward), could this improve mood?
>
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> Linkadge
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Posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2006, at 11:54:20
In reply to Re: manipulating my REM sleep » linkadge, posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 11:36:45
How do you know how much deep sleep you get if you wake each night at 3 and four hour intervals? love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on December 17, 2006, at 12:32:24
In reply to Re: manipulating my REM sleep » linkadge, posted by ronaldo on December 17, 2006, at 11:53:36
I don't want to eliminate REM sleep in the first half, just reduce it, and increase REM in the latter half.
Linadge
Posted by laima on December 17, 2006, at 18:39:18
In reply to Re: manipulating my REM sleep, posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2006, at 11:54:20
If you get a sleep study done, they will tell you exactly how long you spend in each stage, how often you wake up, and lots of other interesting things.
> How do you know how much deep sleep you get if you wake each night at 3 and four hour intervals? love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2006, at 19:49:33
In reply to Re: manipulating my REM sleep » Phillipa, posted by laima on December 17, 2006, at 18:39:18
Unfortunately I was told that medicare doesn't cover them and they are very expensive. Love Phillipa
Posted by laima on December 17, 2006, at 21:48:31
In reply to Re: manipulating my REM sleep » laima, posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2006, at 19:49:33
Oh. I'm sorry to hear that. Also surprised.
> Unfortunately I was told that medicare doesn't cover them and they are very expensive. Love Phillipa
Posted by Klavot on December 18, 2006, at 4:50:57
In reply to manipulating my REM sleep, posted by linkadge on December 17, 2006, at 11:19:11
> So, I hear that in depressed patients REM sleep occurs too early on in sleep, and that in normal patients it occurs more frequently towards the latter half of sleep.
>
> So, if I took an anticholinergic agent right before bedtime, to reduce REM sleep. Then set my alarm to wake up half way through the night to take a cholinergic agent to induce REM sleep (thus pulling my REM sleep forward), could this improve mood?
>
>
> LinkadgeHi Linkadge
Read Wikipedia's article on "Narcolepsy" for some interesting info on the effects of REM sleep.
Best, Klavot
Posted by Jimmyboy on December 20, 2006, at 20:49:47
In reply to Re: manipulating my REM sleep » linkadge, posted by Klavot on December 18, 2006, at 4:50:57
Read that METHYL-B12 has positive effects on normalizing your sleep cycle, you may want to look that up..
JB
Posted by linkadge on December 20, 2006, at 22:23:10
In reply to Re: manipulating my REM sleep, posted by Jimmyboy on December 20, 2006, at 20:49:47
I guess the reason I ask is that some researchers have known for a long time that certain depression can go into overnight remission if sleep archetecture is altered.
I read about one doctor who treated depression entirely with manipulations of sleep.
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on December 21, 2006, at 18:24:38
In reply to Re: the reason I ask., posted by linkadge on December 20, 2006, at 22:23:10
Yeah sleep deprivation works to very temporarily help my depression, but it was a horrible experience and pretty much all for nothing b/c the depression came back so quick..
But yeah I agree that sleep architecture is either a cause or effect of depression, I just wish there was another medication other than Xyrem ( GHB ) that would put you into stage 4 sleep. Not that I wouldn't try it , I would love to, but I think you have to go to a sleep doctor and spend a fortune to get _possible_ access to it.
JB
Posted by linkadge on December 21, 2006, at 20:42:36
In reply to Re: the reason I ask., posted by Jimmyboy on December 21, 2006, at 18:24:38
Sleep deprivation eliminated my depression so absolutely and completely that I really wonder what on eath all these drugs have been doing all this time.
Anxiety gone, feelings of worthlessness gone, anhedonia gone (although I didn't have the energy to cary out too many pleasurable activities). Hopelessness gone.
Linkadge
Posted by teejay on December 23, 2006, at 13:23:06
In reply to Re: the reason I ask., posted by linkadge on December 21, 2006, at 20:42:36
Interesting thread linkadge.
I agree sleep deprivation can for a very short time be a good antidepressant. The trouble is, as one gets older, staying up all night really does leave one feeling terribly washed out and tired the next day (in my youth it wasn't such a problem) so other than for reminding yourself what it feels like to be relatively normal, its a wasted exercise.
Depression, CFS and a whole host of other disorders seem to share the symptom of non restorative sleep. Thats no coincidence IMO.
TJ
Posted by linkadge on December 23, 2006, at 15:51:17
In reply to Re: the reason I ask., posted by teejay on December 23, 2006, at 13:23:06
But why I can go from weeping day after day for hours and hours in a chaotic jumble of suicidality, and feel relatively ok after one night of SD remains a mystery.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 23, 2006, at 17:02:08
In reply to Re: the reason I ask., posted by linkadge on December 23, 2006, at 15:51:17
Perhaps the sleep issue is complex- I have to agree with the observation that it is quite a different thing to stay up all night when one gets older, such as well into one's 30's, than it was at age 20-25. My body simply can't deal with that anymore, and the exhaustion really overwhelms any discernable benefit.I've heard somewhere that what may be beneficial for mood about sleep deprivation is the deprivation of REM, bad dreams. That an anxious or depressed person keeps hashing out negative emotions and scenarios during the night instead of giving the brain a break. Also heard from a psychiatrist that "if you ever want to make someone psychotic, just deprive them of the deep stages of sleep for awhile." I pulled a couple all-nighters for my work last month- and felt pretty "off" (meaning: feeling strange, auditory weirdness, etc.) until I got more sleep again. I rather believe him.
> But why I can go from weeping day after day for hours and hours in a chaotic jumble of suicidality, and feel relatively ok after one night of SD remains a mystery.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 24, 2006, at 13:15:00
In reply to Re: the reason I ask., posted by laima on December 23, 2006, at 17:02:08
I've never gone psychotic on one nights sleep deprivation. Although the world does seem a little bit more live during that day. I mean "live" in the sense that it seems new and otherwordly.
I've only once gone without sleep 2 day in a row. Perhaps that time it could have been more virging on psychosis. I would see flashes of images that I knew were in my mind and not infront of me.
The MAOI's and TCAs have been known to cause psychosis and they seem to have the most profound ability to alter sleep archetecture.
I've heard that a person who is in remission during a day of sleep deprivation can lapse back into depression with as little as 10seconds of REM sleep on the EEG.
Early researchers thought that the primary problem was with some dysregulation during sleep.
Sleep can alter catecholamine metabolism. Too much sleep and you feel more tired.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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