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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AMD on May 2, 2006, at 11:46:22
Folks,
I've been experiencing something new lately: racing thoughts. I don't mean obsessive thoughts (although, of course, I have a history of that). I mean a feeling of not being able to focus, of my brain "running away".
What would cause this? Decreased dopamine? Excessive glutamate firing?
Note that nothing trigged it this time, that I can think of. No drugs, in particular.
amd
Posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 13:59:55
In reply to Racing thoughts ..., posted by AMD on May 2, 2006, at 11:46:22
I would start with the glutamine firing. I just wrote a post on this about 30 min ago. Check it out.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060429/msgs/639225.html
What is your diagnosis?
What is your medication?
Posted by AMD on May 2, 2006, at 14:06:56
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » AMD, posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 13:59:55
That's interesting. I always figured glutamine release was essentially a positive thing: kept one thinking quickly and making connections between ideas in an enhanced way. So perhaps, instead, it's a damaging process.
Too bad we don't know more about how all these neurotransmitters actually work.
It's more like post hoc ergo proctor hoc, methinks.
I feel fried today. My worry is that my last alcoholic binge did some permanent damage, as this has subsisted for some time.
Is it possible to go from clear-thinking to mental debilitation with a night of drinking too much? Or would this be depression? I can never tell the difference between the two, and when I feel like this -- numb and slow in the head -- I worry my brain is slowly, but actively, being eaten away.
Or would an increase in Lamictal cause these feelings? I doubled up on the dose this morning, as it's helped me stabilize in the past.
amd
Posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 14:34:46
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by AMD on May 2, 2006, at 14:06:56
>> Is it possible to go from clear-thinking to mental debilitation with a night of drinking too much? Or would this be depression? I can never tell the difference between the two, and when I feel like this -- numb and slow in the head -- I worry my brain is slowly, but actively, being eaten away.
** I think it's called a hangover. Have another beer.
>> Or would an increase in Lamictal cause these feelings? I doubled up on the dose this morning, as it's helped me stabilize in the past.Doubling up never helped me (I take 200mg twive a day.) Lamictal works both on the high and low end of mood swings co-conmittantly. I have experimented with LOW doses of Wellbutrin to bump me up. I think it helps a little.
Posted by AMD on May 2, 2006, at 14:52:01
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » AMD, posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 14:34:46
> ** I think it's called a hangover. Have another beer.
>If this is a hangover, it's a killer one. It's been over a week. I don't think this has to do with imbibing alcohol.
> Doubling up never helped me (I take 200mg twive a day.) Lamictal works both on the high and low end of mood swings co-conmittantly. I have experimented with LOW doses of Wellbutrin to bump me up. I think it helps a little.I have a new psychiatrist who specializes in addiction, who I'm very excited to see. So finally I should have some consistent treatment.
In the meantime, I'm hoping my mind will return soon. I am miserable right now and my concentration skills are very hindered.
amd
Posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 15:48:31
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » AMD, posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 14:34:46
Declan, me Irish too. First line son. Love Guinness.
Posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 16:00:02
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by curtm on May 2, 2006, at 15:48:31
Posted by rjlockhart on May 2, 2006, at 16:36:53
In reply to Racing thoughts ..., posted by AMD on May 2, 2006, at 11:46:22
I have racing thoughts sometimes, usally when i do i get manic.
I think it is glumate firing with some dopamine in the syspse that is not suppost to be, that makes you paranoid about thoughts.
A while i had, i used to post, that i was absolutly going insane. I get so incrediably with my thoughts nothing would stop it, i would express it, saying im going insane. It was very intense, Klonopin didnt help, i was headed for Seroquel (AP) to shut my thoughts down.
The worst is being paranoid about your own thoughts. You have to tell yourself, its fine, everything is fine, well thats what i did like 6 times.
Feeling out of control can be emotionally instable, mentally, they both are the same, i still have mental instablity, i am not on the right medication.
Zyprexa can be helpful some of this. Xanax doesnt help manic episodes, it only helps panic. But when you feeling unstable, sometimes antipsychotics help. Stimulants also, which is a degree off what where talking about, but they sometimes help with the "order" of thought, which is mainly why they are prescribed for ADD. But they are NOT for Psychosis.
Please take care
Matt
Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2006, at 22:05:06
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by rjlockhart on May 2, 2006, at 16:36:53
AMD I have the same thing . I think it's increased anxiety. Trouble reading my eyes read too fast. And my thoughts get all jumbled up. I'm still taking valium. thinking of trying ENSAM. Love Phillipa
Posted by AMD on May 2, 2006, at 22:25:53
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2006, at 22:05:06
What is ENSAM? Been seeing a lot of posts about it.
amd
Posted by jakeman on May 2, 2006, at 22:31:15
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2006, at 22:05:06
Heavy drinkers often have a depletion of glutamine that can lead to anxiety and cognitive impairment. There are studies about it and Joan Mathews Larson writes a lot about it in her books.
warm regards, Jake
> AMD I have the same thing . I think it's increased anxiety. Trouble reading my eyes read too fast. And my thoughts get all jumbled up. I'm still taking valium. thinking of trying ENSAM. Love Phillipa
Posted by jakeman on May 2, 2006, at 22:36:15
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » Phillipa, posted by jakeman on May 2, 2006, at 22:31:15
PS. I'm not saying that anyone here is a heavy drinker. Just that glutamine is a valuble nutrient when in the right balance. I generally take 500 mg per day as needed to help my brain power.
> Heavy drinkers often have a depletion of glutamine that can lead to anxiety and cognitive impairment. There are studies about it and Joan Mathews Larson writes a lot about it in her books.
>
> warm regards, Jake
>
>
> > AMD I have the same thing . I think it's increased anxiety. Trouble reading my eyes read too fast. And my thoughts get all jumbled up. I'm still taking valium. thinking of trying ENSAM. Love Phillipa
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2006, at 22:36:30
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » Phillipa, posted by jakeman on May 2, 2006, at 22:31:15
ENSAM is the new patch no pill an MAOI that you put on your skin. I like the idea of now putting another pill in my body . And if bad side effects can take it off and effects gone in 2-6 hours and at the low dose no diet restrictions. Still watching as it's very expensive. Hope this helps. Love Phillipa
Posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 8:55:01
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » Phillipa, posted by jakeman on May 2, 2006, at 22:31:15
Anything one can do to reverse this damage? Does it recover on its own?
amd
Posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 8:56:03
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2006, at 22:36:30
> ENSAM is the new patch no pill an MAOI that you put on your skin. I like the idea of now putting another pill in my body . And if bad side effects can take it off and effects gone in 2-6 hours and at the low dose no diet restrictions. Still watching as it's very expensive. Hope this helps. Love Phillipa
That's interesting. I'll do some research.
amd
Posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 8:57:38
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by jakeman on May 2, 2006, at 22:36:15
> PS. I'm not saying that anyone here is a heavy drinker. Just that glutamine is a valuble nutrient when in the right balance. I generally take 500 mg per day as needed to help my brain power.
Have you noticed a significant increase in cognitive skills (particualrly executive functioning) taking the 500 m.g.?
My understanding is that OTC glutamine (glutamate?) does not cross the blood-brain barrier and thus has little effect.
amd
Posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 9:40:16
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » Phillipa, posted by jakeman on May 2, 2006, at 22:31:15
>> Heavy drinkers often have a depletion of glutamine that can lead to anxiety and cognitive impairment. There are studies about it and Joan Mathews Larson writes a lot about it in her books.
I am a pretty heavy drinker, 6-8 beers a day, EVERYDAY. I don't have any Joan Mathews Larson books.
Do you know why this occurs. Is it the brain's oxygen supply and/or the dehydration effect of alcohol that causes cognitive impairment? Why would it cause anxiety?
Posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 9:43:05
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » jakeman, posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 8:57:38
Free glutamic acid cannot cross BBB in appreciable quantities; instead it is converted into glutamine.
Here is the link I found all this information yesterday and today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate
Be sure to check out the associative links. It gets kind of complicated. Good luck.
Curt
Posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 9:48:51
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » jakeman, posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 9:40:16
> I am a pretty heavy drinker, 6-8 beers a day, EVERYDAY. I don't have any Joan Mathews Larson books.
Out of curiosity, does your daily drinking ever lead to memory loss (during the drink episode) or stupor? E.g., a black out or extreme drunkenness?amd
Posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 9:51:54
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 9:43:05
I just visited Wiki for that information to verify my thoughts.
What effect does NMDA have on glutamic acid, and Lamictal on NMDA? I drank excessively last week, to blackout (or at least spotty memory) and I'm concerned I may have gotten a serious illness from the episode. Damage to my executive functions in particular. One week later and I'm still having trouble putting together thoughts into coherent plans.
Will this ever recover?
What role might the Lamictal have in this? I took double doses the last two days. Would this hinder concentration to this degree?
And 80 m.g. of Celexa? Any studies showing whether a high dose hinders concentration or inhibits memory formation?
Ta,
amd
> Free glutamic acid cannot cross BBB in appreciable quantities; instead it is converted into glutamine.
>
> Here is the link I found all this information yesterday and today:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate
>
> Be sure to check out the associative links. It gets kind of complicated. Good luck.
>
> Curt
>
Posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 9:53:07
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » curtm, posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 9:48:51
> Out of curiosity, does your daily drinking ever lead to memory loss (during the drink episode) or stupor? E.g., a black out or extreme drunkenness?
>
> amd
No, but I do wake up with a slight slight headache. Better within a half hour or so.
EVERYDAY
Posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 9:56:43
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » AMD, posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 9:53:07
Ah, but I am wondering if twice-monthly binging to excess (to blackout over the course of, say, six hours) will lead to permanent brain damage. Particularly one night of such behavior after a few months of abstinence.
I feel that way today. In a fog and having difficulty concentrating. I can't think; I'm not feeling creative. I'm curious whether this is actually the drugs I'm no, rather than any latent effect from last week's drinking.
(After one week, it's certainly not an acute hangover!)
amd
> > Out of curiosity, does your daily drinking ever lead to memory loss (during the drink episode) or stupor? E.g., a black out or extreme drunkenness?
> >
> > amd
>
>
> No, but I do wake up with a slight slight headache. Better within a half hour or so.
> EVERYDAY
>
>
Posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 10:27:30
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ..., posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 9:56:43
>> What effect does NMDA have
** I see you found the confusing part,too. What is also confusing is that glutamine is the most exitatory neurotransmitter, but it is also the precursor for the most common inhibitory transmitter, GABA. They both affect the nerve activity, but in opposing ways...:?
>> I drank excessively last week, to blackout (or at least spotty memory) Will this ever recover?
** Of course it will. You probably need some heavy rehydration. Get away for a day. Go fishing. Get some fresh air.
>> And 80 m.g. of Celexa? Any studies showing whether a high dose hinders concentration or inhibits memory formation?
** I don't know about Celexa, but I noticed some short term memory loss on Wellbutrin. Strangely, I also had slight halos on lights with night vision.
>> What role might the Lamictal have in this? I took double doses the last two days. Would this hinder concentration to this degree?
** Again, double doses aren't necessary. It doesn't take immediate effect. It takes days for the levels to taper up (or down.) I don't think the Lamictal affects my concentration much. It is probably just a lack of exercise, too much drinking, and normal stress in my life.
** Oh, I forgot about this site. Good info on Lamictal. Better than the official Lamictal site:
Posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 10:50:51
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » AMD, posted by curtm on May 3, 2006, at 10:27:30
Somethimg else interesting.
Photoreceptors in the eyes produce less glutamine when subjected to light. So does that mean what we see and what lighting we see it in affects our perception of it and our mood?
Purely hypothetical.
Posted by jakeman on May 3, 2006, at 22:46:25
In reply to Re: Racing thoughts ... » jakeman, posted by AMD on May 3, 2006, at 8:57:38
Yes. I do my share of binge drinking. It seems that taking glutamine first in the morning helps restore some of my brain function, maybe restoring what was depleted. My impression is that it does get into your system. I take it on an empty stomach. There are ways to minimize hangovers with vitamins. I guess that's a personal choice...
~Jake
> Have you noticed a significant increase in cognitive skills (particualrly executive functioning) taking the 500 m.g.?
>
> My understanding is that OTC glutamine (glutamate?) does not cross the blood-brain barrier and thus has little effect.
>
> amd
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