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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Glydin on March 26, 2006, at 22:32:43
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors? » Glydin, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 20:23:18
Even though we differ on how we "see" things, I really do try to be respectful of how you "see" things. I don't feel there is any given back and I would really like get that but I'm thinking I'm not going to. While it's difficult to assess tone in the written word, I feel the tone is hostile.
Posted by SLS on March 27, 2006, at 6:54:56
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by djmmm on March 26, 2006, at 20:45:02
> > Well this is it, although, I wouldn't call it what I feel is "comfortable".
> >
> > The SSRI's have not been around long enough. Simply put, we lack long term safety data.
> >
> > It is not guarenteed that what a doctor tells you about a medicaton is correct. Doctors have been incorrect in the past. It wasn't so long ago that fenfluramine was considered a safe weight loss drug.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
> >
>
>
> Here are a couple more negative studies:
>
> http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/toxicity-brain-damage.htmThe problem I see with this site is that it has an agenda. It does not produce a balanced or objective presentation. It is, obviously, a website devoted to the invalidation of antidepressants as a treatment for depression. However, many of the studies it cites seem to be legitimate and conducted with objectivity. The presentation can be very pursuasive, albeit biased. I think the site is a good resource if you are in urgent need of information to nullify the utility of antidepressants.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 8:20:21
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors? » linkadge, posted by Glydin on March 26, 2006, at 22:32:43
My tone was not meant to be hostile, it was mean to be assertive.
I respect everybody's view. I don't necessarily agree with people's tendancy to presume the safety of the meds, but that does not mean I don't have respect for them as a person.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 8:21:55
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by SLS on March 27, 2006, at 6:54:56
I don't necessarily belive in the intentions of antidperessantfacts.com either. They do link to medline studies which we can process independantly.
Linkadge
Posted by med_empowered on March 27, 2006, at 8:58:23
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 8:21:55
I think docs in general (and, for some reasons, psychiatrists in particular) tend to ignore the "Precautionary Principle": until something is proven safe (or at least the risks are known), you should minimize exposure. And if you look at all the treatments in psychiatry that came and went (barbiturates, quaaludes, common use of amphetamines) the big problem wasn't the chemicals per se--it was more over-prescribing b/c of "trends" in RXing and more patient selection and poor clinical management. The SSRIs have been used for EVERYTHING, which is one reason we have so many problems--if their use had been more limited, it probably wouldn't have been as problematic.
Posted by Glydin on March 27, 2006, at 9:01:46
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors?, posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 8:20:21
I was out of line when I posted that and I regret it. I apologize Link.
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 9:32:08
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors? » linkadge, posted by Glydin on March 27, 2006, at 9:01:46
You have every right to question my intentions.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 9:46:03
In reply to ADs, posted by med_empowered on March 27, 2006, at 8:58:23
This is the thing. I have taken a difference stance, and that is guilty untill proven innocent.
I don't think that systematic studies have been done on a lot of the problems that are now surfacing, and I am really just wondering why?
We do thousands of studies that seem to show MDMA is capable of dammage to the serotonergic system, yet when one study seems to show the same with SSRI's there is no follow up? That doesn't make sence esp. since SSRI's are swallowed much more commonly then E.
I guess I am just wondering why psychiatry has to wait for problems to happen instead of being proactive?
Linkadge
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 27, 2006, at 11:52:29
In reply to Re: ADs » med_empowered, posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 9:46:03
Maybe doctors who do the studies showing that long term SSRI use isn't too healthy, get death threats from the Big Pharma companies....LOL
Seriously, it wouldn't surprise me.
Maybe there just isn't the funding - I take it that Pharma companies aren't going to specifically fund studies that show that their drugs aren't safe are they?
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 15:18:51
In reply to Re: ADs, posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 27, 2006, at 11:52:29
Good point. This is serious buisness for the drug companies. I'm sure they work to couteract all possibilities that might lead to sales decline.
Linkadge
Posted by vainamoinen on March 27, 2006, at 16:44:40
In reply to Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors?, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 17:00:05
My experience has been, after being on an SSRI for about 6 years now, that if I decrease the dosage in anything but an excruciatingly slow manner I go into a tailspin of depression.
So in a way it's not unlike methadone or heroin or any other addictive drug.
Now the flip side is that I am convinced that if it were not for antidepressants I would be dead by my own hand a long time ago.
So I'm strung out on prozac. Seems like a small price to pay for the quality of life I enjoy now.
And if I'm fattening the wallets of big pharm so be it. I'm also contributing towards their R&D budgets which may find a cure for cancer, heart disease, or diabetes.
The more cynical view would be that a cure for any of those maladies is not in the best interest of big pharm. But even a treatment of lifelong medication is better than the alternative is it not?
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 19:03:20
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by vainamoinen on March 27, 2006, at 16:44:40
When I came off SSRI's my depression plunged to a level that it had never been before medicating. It stayed that way for a long time untill I felt somewhat like I did before taking the medications.
If I was to decide to medicate again, I would have to be prepared to face those consequences.
Linkadge
Posted by summerflowers on March 28, 2006, at 6:43:15
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 19:03:20
I used to think SSRIs on their own were as harmless as lollies.But something definatly permanantly changed in me since I went on and off them twice.I dont think their harmless anymore.
Posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 7:59:27
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by summerflowers on March 28, 2006, at 6:43:15
I find a lot of people are humbled by the first time they withdrawl from an AD for whatever reason.
I think that it is interesting how a lot of people's opinions change during/after withdrawl.
The drug goes from the best thing since sliced bread, to well, a little less than that.
Linkadge
Posted by vainamoinen on March 28, 2006, at 14:32:38
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » summerflowers, posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 7:59:27
>
> I think that it is interesting how a lot of people's opinions change during/after withdrawl.
>
Ha, tell me about it. Even though the physical symptoms of Prozac withdrawal are nothing compared to the zaps you get from withdrawing from Effexor or Paxil, the depression is daunting. I dare say that the depression following AD withdrawal is worse than the depression the AD's were meant to treat. That's kinda effed up.
Posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 15:47:36
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by vainamoinen on March 28, 2006, at 14:32:38
Its really effed up. It has been a year since being off SSRI's and many things for me aren't the same. I have problems walking that I can't seem to explain to doctors. Problems with ballance. My vision too was very dim for a long time after SSRI withdrawl. Another problem was that in myself the withdrawl depression included strong suicidiality where none had existed previously. I never suffered panic attacks either (anxiety but no panic attacks), during SSRI withdrawl I had some really bad panic attacks.
So while the drugs may help, people need to know about these things. If I had knew then what I know now, I would have not taken them.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 19:36:34
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » vainamoinen, posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 15:47:36
That's it!!!!!!No more SSRI's for me. I've already cut down on the luvox and my anxiety is getting worse even with the valium. So link did the panic anc anxiety finally go away. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 21:53:20
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 19:36:34
Eventually the panic attacks subsided. But for information, If I had to do the withdrawl again, it would have been done more slowly.
There seems to be a tendancy to withdrawl faster and faster as you reach nothing. Don't fall into that tendancy.
Linkadge
Posted by Glydin on March 28, 2006, at 22:25:15
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 19:36:34
Did you read the other post?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060322/msgs/625227.html
I hope you make your decisions carefully and look at more than one school of thought on the subject....
Posted by ian34 on March 28, 2006, at 22:39:28
In reply to Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors?, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 17:00:05
> I remember reading that one study which was done showing that high dose of SSRI's dammaged brain cells in a similar manner to serotonin releasers like MDMA. I was wondering if any more studies had been done allong those lines.
>
> That one study basically concluded that more studies should be done before the drugs can be concluded as safe. Why have no other studies been undertaken ?
>
> LinkadgeHmm, well according to scientology drugs and psychiatry are a tool of the evil intergalactic warlord, Keno, to suppress our knowledge that we used to have god-like powers. There is a similar bias with the website that you linked. Anyway taking mdma is like taking a bottle of ads all at once
Posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:20:41
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew receptors? » Glydin, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 20:23:18
> Well this is it, although, I wouldn't call it what I feel is "comfortable".
>
> The SSRI's have not been around long enough. Simply put, we lack long term safety data.Actually the first drug that could be called an SSRI has been around for 37 years, Clomipramine (Anafranil), a tricyclic with SSRI properties, although only approved in late 1989 in the US. Zimelidine was approved in the early 80s by what is now Astra-Zeneca, and banned eventually due to the rare Guillain-Barré syndrome and other multiple organ issues. It was followed shortly by Prozac (1987) which was derived from studies of Benadryl, which it is related to, among other things. So we have around at least 20 years here and more elsewhere of true SSRI history. I'm not saying we know everything about them but we have had quite a number of patient-years of medication.
Posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:36:40
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by ian34 on March 28, 2006, at 22:39:28
> > I remember reading that one study which was done showing that high dose of SSRI's dammaged brain cells in a similar manner to serotonin releasers like MDMA. I was wondering if any more studies had been done allong those lines.
> >
> > That one study basically concluded that more studies should be done before the drugs can be concluded as safe. Why have no other studies been undertaken ?
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> Hmm, well according to scientology drugs and psychiatry are a tool of the evil intergalactic warlord, Keno, to suppress our knowledge that we used to have god-like powers.
And saying or opening your mouth to anything rational about Scientology could land you with harassment, spying, litigation, and endless things. The organization was founded by a failed science fiction writer. Its a wierd place, the main mothership here in Southern Californa, guards stand outside the place, along Hollywood Blvd. Creepy really. And yes, they have done quite a lot of damage about psychiatry. But we have freedom of "religion" here. Other countries have tried to prosecute them with middling success. And of course it is right there among the glitterati like Tom Cruise and company who can afford the ponzi schemes the organization extracts money from people. Not to mention their stance on homosexuality which is another story, it is unclear but likely that L. Ron Hubbard's son, Quentin Hubbard committed suicide over that.
I'm sure I will get an earful on this, but thats my stance on it, I've known people who have gotten sucked into it.
Posted by summerflowers on March 29, 2006, at 2:21:52
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » ian34, posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:36:40
I find scientology interesting.I also sometimes wish id stuck to my younger days of drinking my old mans whiskey and smoking the odd marujuana. Since being on and off SSRIs iv had weight problems as in bloating that havent come right,and I feel foggy like not quite myself,things dont feel the same,and I can def put it all back to when I started those pills.I also remember the first time I took them they were the best thing.It felt like I was seeing the world through different eyes.I felt really in tune with the crowds around me.?
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 14:05:11
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto, posted by ian34 on March 28, 2006, at 22:39:28
I did not link drugawareness.org.
The study done which showed that SSRI's caused corkscrewed/shriveled receptors was *not* done by an antimedication organization. This study was fairly mainstream actually, you can find it posted on other reputable sites by googling it.
I understand that SSRI's and MDMA are different drugs, but the study is suggesting that they can impact serotonergic neurons in a similar way. I was a unsubstantiated beleif, that only serotonin releasers like MDMA were capable of such issues.
Admittedly, the dose was high. But, these changes were noted (I believe) at as little as 10x an equivilant human dose, after only 4 days.
The point being, that it is probably advantagious for follow-up studies to clarify the effects.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 14:16:31
In reply to Re: Any more studies done on SSRI/corscrew recepto » linkadge, posted by yxibow on March 29, 2006, at 0:20:41
I agree, we have patient years, but this does not conclude safety.
For instance, we have patient years on antipsychotics, but only recently have we attained the type of imaging necessary to confirm that the drugs actually can lead to structural abnormalities in the brain. I mean we could observe problems, but it seems that medical science needs to see thing under a microscope before it can be called a fact.
So, while it is anecdotal that the drugs may cause problems, poop-out, dependance, cardiovascular, cognative, I think that we are approaching a time that we may be able to confirm or dispute such reports with more accuracy, than we were 30 yrs ago.
Its the same think with pregnancy. While mothers have been using the drugs during pregnancy for a long time, we only now are conducting well designed studies to *sses the risk for child. So why has it taken us this long to reach those conclsusions, despite a suspected risk ?
Linkadge
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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