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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by San Diegan on March 10, 2006, at 17:15:31
The people who say psychiatry is bunk, and all psych meds are bad--are there ANY psych meds they think are ok for getting relief from mental problems? Do you all think there's any merit to their position? It does seem like pdocs have very little idea how the meds work, and that the harm is much more than the good they do...
I read breggin's website and it really scared me about the psych meds
Posted by med_empowered on March 10, 2006, at 17:49:50
In reply to anti-meds, anti-psychiatry, breggin.., posted by San Diegan on March 10, 2006, at 17:15:31
psychiatry NEEDS peter breggin--a lot of stuff shrinks did and still do is just ridiculous and harmful. That said...I think the no-meds, ever position is just as dogmatic as the all meds, all the time position.
Personally, I think anti-convulsant mood stabilizers, benzos, sleeping pills, and stimulants are pretty helpful, if the dosing is done appropriately. Antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc...not so much. Just my opinion though.
Posted by linkadge on March 10, 2006, at 18:25:07
In reply to anti-meds, anti-psychiatry, breggin.., posted by San Diegan on March 10, 2006, at 17:15:31
Its a whole spectrum of beliefs. With those who think their miracle pills on the one side, and on the other side there are those who believe they should all be banned.
I personally believe there is merrit some of the to things that opponents like Breggin speak of. Much of what he says about say, antipsychotics, has been confirmed on certain levels.
Linkadge
Posted by bassman on March 10, 2006, at 18:29:18
In reply to mixed bag, posted by med_empowered on March 10, 2006, at 17:49:50
I wish that I could go to a psychiatrist and say, "I've got panic disorder" and he'd say, "fine-look, I have several options that we can try...". It is more like, what ever is wrong with you, the pdoc says, "no, you should be taking Zoloft or..." Then you take his favorite med until it's obvious it doesn't work. I know a lot of people would disagree with me, but when it comes to the meds part, I've been much more satisfied with internists. They don't seem to have any favorite med, they are willing to give it the ol', "let's try this and that until it works..."-and then they aren't invested in you coming on a regular basis to beg for your prescriptions, which I think is inofitself a source of great anxiety.
I'm less convinced about therapy unless you get a really great therapist-and the chances of that are about the same as winning the lottery. Sure there are a lot of meds out there that have oodles of side effects and don't help very much-but it is the same thing with pain medications, anti-hypertensives, etc. I pinched a nerve in my back about a year ago and went through every pain killer that my ortho and intereist could think of. They didn't help the pain that much, but they sure made me dopey-so I ended up with a daily ice pack right where the nerve was pinched and daily yoga. That quickly did what the meds could not. If there were perfect meds, there would be only one in each class. Also there are certainly a lot of people that like to trivialize the emotional pain of anxiety and depression, so they say "no meds" when they mean "shake it off, wimp". My wish for such folks is for them to have serious depression and anxiety for just one month. They would become enlightened.
Posted by Phillipa on March 10, 2006, at 18:52:28
In reply to Re: mixed bag, posted by bassman on March 10, 2006, at 18:29:18
I agree. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by jedi on March 10, 2006, at 20:23:12
In reply to Re: mixed bag, posted by bassman on March 10, 2006, at 18:29:18
...
Also there are certainly a lot of people that like to trivialize the emotional pain of anxiety and depression, so they say "no meds" when they mean "shake it off, wimp". My wish for such folks is for them to have serious depression and anxiety for just one month. They would become enlightened.Hey bassman,
I sure agree with that statement. Medications have saved my life on several occasions. Depression that goes on and on for months and years is some of the worst kind of pain. It can destroy lives and deserves to be treated by the best that science has to offer. Our knowledge of the brain is woefully inadequate, but we are learning all the time. This "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude can only come from someone who has not suffered from severe depression.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by San Diegan on March 11, 2006, at 1:13:16
In reply to Re: mixed bag » bassman, posted by jedi on March 10, 2006, at 20:23:12
The only meds that really help me without intolerable se's are benzos. I'm afraid to use them tho, because of the fear that the next doc will insist on taking it away and giving me extremely toxic stuff like antipsychotics. My options are limited with docs too, as I have medicare/medi-cal
Posted by bassman on March 11, 2006, at 8:25:55
In reply to Re: mixed bag, posted by San Diegan on March 11, 2006, at 1:13:16
That's miserable-you have to worry about the med that is working for you because you can't trust the judgment of your next doc. But it is typical of psychoactive medication-some docs just seem to think they know best. And they don't; they just don't know they don't. The patient alone knows how he/she feels.
Posted by jedi on March 11, 2006, at 10:24:09
In reply to Re: mixed bag, posted by bassman on March 11, 2006, at 8:25:55
> That's miserable-you have to worry about the med that is working for you because you can't trust the judgment of your next doc. But it is typical of psychoactive medication-some docs just seem to think they know best. And they don't; they just don't know they don't. The patient alone knows how he/she feels.
Hi Guys,
I had a PDOC several years ago that made me endure nine months of HELL because he refused to prescribe a MAOI (Nardil) for me. In that nine-month period, he must have tried me on six or seven different medications. I told him repeatedly that phenelzine was the only med that had ever brought me out of major depression. I really believe this guy would have let me die on a SSRI or SNRI before giving me the med needed to save me. The last resort was when he spent our entire half-hour appointment, on the phone to a clinic, trying to get the results of a desipramine blood level. I finally put together about twenty pages of research on atypical depression and social anxiety, wrote a three-page letter, and submitted it to a new GP. This was just to get the prescription I needed to save my life. Going through this kind of effort, when you are so sick that you can barely get out of bed, seems to be quite normal when working with MAOIs. It should not be this way. IMHO, the MAOIs should be 2nd tier meds for atypical depression and not the last chance before ECT. Some PDOCs even put them after ECT in their hierarchy of treatments.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by Last Chance on March 11, 2006, at 10:33:39
In reply to Re: mixed bag, posted by bassman on March 10, 2006, at 18:29:18
Bassman - very simply and beautifully put. Are you a bass player?, just curious. Performing with SP, anxiety, can be impossible without some kind of med. Richard
Posted by bassman on March 11, 2006, at 11:23:22
In reply to Re: mixed bag, posted by Last Chance on March 11, 2006, at 10:33:39
My day job is being a research chemist. My fun "job" is playing the bass and the guitar in a somewhat talent-challenged band. When I get stressed playing, my hands sweat and my fingers shake-so playing the bass is easier (harder to miss the strings!)I find if I'm playing in church or somewhere where I'm just playing a couple tunes, I really have to lecture myself about not practising so hard so I can mess things up now-and that helps me focus. I give myself the, "the most important thing in the next 5 minutes in your life is to play well" speech. Any other string players out there, keeping a tissue in your left hand until you play really helps..
Posted by linkadge on March 11, 2006, at 11:55:09
In reply to Re: mixed bag, posted by jedi on March 11, 2006, at 10:24:09
Geez, thats crazy. And your doctor is not atypical by any means. I don't know why some doctors are so anti-MAOI. My doctor only believes in the SSRI-Antipsychotic combination.
What happened to the good old days when doctors actually wanted their patients to get better - "for real".
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on March 12, 2006, at 6:12:51
In reply to anti-meds, anti-psychiatry, breggin.., posted by San Diegan on March 10, 2006, at 17:15:31
> The people who say psychiatry is bunk, and all psych meds are bad--are there ANY psych meds they think are ok for getting relief from mental problems? Do you all think there's any merit to their position? It does seem like pdocs have very little idea how the meds work, and that the harm is much more than the good they do...
>
> I read breggin's website and it really scared me about the psych meds
>
I think i'd be dead without the drugs;
the docs who are sceptical about psychiatric
medications should talk to colleagues who
themselves are mentally ill, but practicing.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 12, 2006, at 6:20:01
In reply to Re: mixed bag » bassman, posted by jedi on March 10, 2006, at 20:23:12
I agree with your message Jedi.
All doubt would be removed if
these silly doctors were made to
visit mental institutions and observe
the effects of mental illness.
This should be part of their degree
requirement. I think many of them
have just taken sociology
courses and do not understand the
extent to which the brain influences
the "mind" when diseased. If we're
lucky they have relative who is
ill, e.g. Dr. Torrey and his sister.Squiggles
Posted by med_empowered on March 12, 2006, at 10:43:17
In reply to Regularity = stability » jedi, posted by Squiggles on March 12, 2006, at 6:20:01
I think part of the problem is the power imbalance in psychiatry. You go to a psychiatrist and they label your experience, pushing it into one of the pre-made diagnostic categories...from the beginning, what matters most isn't **your experience**, but rather the docs understanding/labelling of your experience--the expert's word counts for more than the mental patient's word.
Then, shrinks seem to regard their patients with less trust and sometimes even with a bit of disdain. I'm sure we've all had docs who, despite being over-compensated for their time, just seemed that they were too "busy" to really help, even when "helping" is what they **DO** and is in fact the only reason their profession exists--the possibility that drugs and therapy can alter behavior and thoughts and improve human existence.
And then you have the "know-it-alls" who seem to "know," through some sort of psychiatric magic, just what treatment(s) are appropriate. And if it these magical treatments don't work? Well, then its your fault--you're "treatment-resistant" or possibly non-compliant or possibly you have a previously undiscovered personality disorder that "complicates" the picture. THe situation is ridiculous and untenable, especially considering the billions of $$$ pumped into this profession annually for rather lackadaisical results.
Posted by Squiggles on March 12, 2006, at 11:44:12
In reply to meds..., posted by med_empowered on March 12, 2006, at 10:43:17
> I think part of the problem is the power imbalance in psychiatry. You go to a psychiatrist and they label your experience, pushing it into one of the pre-made diagnostic categories...from the beginning, what matters most isn't **your experience**, but rather the docs understanding/labelling of your experience--the expert's word counts for more than the mental patient's word.
>
> Then, shrinks seem to regard their patients with less trust and sometimes even with a bit of disdain. I'm sure we've all had docs who, despite being over-compensated for their time, just seemed that they were too "busy" to really help, even when "helping" is what they **DO** and is in fact the only reason their profession exists--the possibility that drugs and therapy can alter behavior and thoughts and improve human existence.
>
> And then you have the "know-it-alls" who seem to "know," through some sort of psychiatric magic, just what treatment(s) are appropriate. And if it these magical treatments don't work? Well, then its your fault--you're "treatment-resistant" or possibly non-compliant or possibly you have a previously undiscovered personality disorder that "complicates" the picture. THe situation is ridiculous and untenable, especially considering the billions of $$$ pumped into this profession annually for rather lackadaisical results.I don't think you would agree with me,
because I have read your posts. My own
view is that the APA, CPA, etc. should
stop drug company reps. from selling their
wares. They should be more patient-friendly
throught their immense resources. A-n-d
I think that the asylum (or clinics of
a similar sort) should come back
for people who need more intensive care.
As things stand, the treatment of mental
illness is not taken as seriously as it
should be. It is not a glamorous disease,
except in Hollywood movies and they mostly
take place in asylum settings.Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2006, at 18:00:54
In reply to meds..., posted by med_empowered on March 12, 2006, at 10:43:17
Med I fully agree how can l0minutes with a person tell them what is wrong with them and what meds to take. Makes no sense to me. Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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