![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Schess81 on October 3, 2005, at 22:15:28
I used adderall for about a year, 30-40mgs a day- a Dr thought it would help me concentrate- but it actually worked great for my depression. Then it seemed to poopout, so I decided to get off of it (this was about 2.5 yrs ago) Anyway, in the MDMA thread above SLS quoted some abstracts about d-amphetamine and neuro-toxicity. I've always been convinced my depression, but expecially anhedona, has been worse since my amphetamine use. Any you smart people think I could have killed a few dopamine/reward curcuit neurons? Or were my doses way too low and am I just paranoid? The adderall still works somewhat against my anhedonia and depression if I take now, but instead would it be safer to add another stim like ritalin or provigil for my TRD?
Posted by med_empowered on October 4, 2005, at 4:17:49
In reply to Amphetamines and depression, posted by Schess81 on October 3, 2005, at 22:15:28
hey! I had a similar situation...60mgs/adderall (kinda high dose, I know) was RX'd for ADHD, but it helped more with depression...unfortunately, it also made me lose lots of weight, etc. etc. so I went off of it. I'm taking super-high dose St. John's Wort now, and I feel fine (this isn't a recommendation or anything...just my experience). Anyway, I seem to remember reading somewhere that kids who were given Ritalin tended to have more depression that kids who werent...they also tended to use illegal stimulant drugs (like cocaine, which is ritalin-ish) when they got older. This might just be an interesting coincidence; after all, ADHD people often have other mood disorders,and mood disorders up the risk of drug use and severe depression a good bit. It could also be that there was some kind of brain damage, but that kids today might not be affected...apparently, back in the day, ritalin doses were considerably higher than they are now; hence the term "Ritalin Kid"--the suspiciously happy and focused kid who can stare off into space for hours on end without complaining. So...who knows. Anyway, back to you. My **guess** would be that since you used a stimulant at RX'd doses which were pretty modest (in narcolepsy, by comparison, doses sometimes reach 180mgs of amphetamine), the odds that you did any sort of lasting damage to your brain seem **minimal** at most. I guess a good comparison would be coke heads...cocaine users often go through intense periods of sadness/despair following withdrawal; I read one study that showed that prolonged withdrawal actually allowed the brain to re-grow damaged neurons and what-not. So...my wild guess-timate would be that either a) your brain wasn't and isn't damaged at all or b) as long as you can avoid heavy drug use, any **mild** damage that happened to your brain will probably be repaired, if it hasn't been already. Have a good day!
Posted by Maxime on October 4, 2005, at 11:19:40
In reply to Re: Amphetamines and depression, posted by med_empowered on October 4, 2005, at 4:17:49
I don't know if they can cause damage. All I know is that when the dexedrine wears off, I am so depressed that I can barely function. It wasn't like that with the Adderall XR. Or at least it wasn't as pronounced. It felt more like my brain was winding down for the day.
Maxime
Posted by Phillipa on October 4, 2005, at 19:36:08
In reply to Re: Amphetamines and depression, posted by Maxime on October 4, 2005, at 11:19:40
Sounds wonderful. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Schess81 on October 4, 2005, at 22:18:34
In reply to Re: Amphetamines and depression, posted by med_empowered on October 4, 2005, at 4:17:49
Thanks for your assurance Med E., youre probrably right about it all. Still, I keep telling myself I have no damage, but it always nags on me; since I took adderall, I haven't gotten a complete remission of my depresson- and like I said, I feel like I have this anhedonia and lack or reward I didn't have before. I have spent a bit of time wondering and researching: if I did kill any neurons that didn't grow back, where are they, and what symptoms would result?
Well, this is long but I hope somebody is willing to read it, lol.
In the first journal abstract SLS quotes in that ecstasy thread, it states that "amphetamine and methamphetamine undoubtedly cause irreversible brain damage with long-term use" well, I have to admit, this does NOT sound good to me.
According to another of those journal abstracts:" Results showed that a sensitizing regimen of amphetamine caused a persistent increase in the number of GFAP-positive cells in the dorsal and ventral caudate-putamen." it goes on to say that this "..may be due to mild neurotoxicity"
The last journal abstract states that "Long-term or high dose administration of d-amphetamine (AMPH) in the rat has been shown to result in dopamine terminal neurotoxicity in the striatum of rats. This phenomenon includes depletion of dopamine content, decreased activity of tyrosine hydroxylase and diminish in the number of dopamine reuptake transporter."Anyway, the place where this damage occurs is in the striatum, and more specifically the "dorsal and ventral caudate-putamen." well, this spot I think is part of the mesotelencephalic dopamine system- including the pathway of axons that extend from neurons in the substantia nigra to the nucleus accumbens-a well known, key brain center associated with rewad (of course, significant degeneration of the dopamine producing neurons in the substantia nigra is the cause of parkinsons disease) However, it seems to me that if part of the nigrostriatal or mesolimbic dopamine pathways were compromised somewhere in the striatum, (where amphetamines apparently cause neurotoxicity) perhaps symptoms of anhedonia, low motivation, would result that wouldn't respond well to serotonin AD drugs.
I know that these sympoms are also synonomous with depression, and depression isn't the result of brain damage but a mood disorder in which the brain is essentially stuck in "sad mode". *But* considering that I took amphetamine and felt great and super motivated-I was pretty much high on speed, but I had no idea back then that that was what was happening, hey, I just knew I felt *really* good! And now knowing the fact that amphetamine can be neurotoxic, I can't help but wonder that there may be a connection between that and why I now feel no reward for the things I do. Yeah, I'm aware probrably hundreds of thousands of kids have taken amphetamines for ADHD, with no apparent damage. still, just because low dose amphetamines usually dont cause problems, I cant help but think its *possible*. I wish I could get a hi-res MRI or something that could conclusively prove whether amphetamines caused any harm to my brains reward pathways. (would that be feasable?) Maybe then I would stop obsessing about it all. I feel adding a different dopaminergic drug should help me out, if my theory is correct. Anyway, I'm sure there are a lot of knowledable people out there that can tell me if I'm making any sense with all this or if I am I just making too many crazy assumptions...
Posted by Sebastian on October 8, 2005, at 15:26:30
In reply to Amphetamines and depression, posted by Schess81 on October 3, 2005, at 22:15:28
I would be blaming the MDMA(x). Give it time.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.