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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjlockhart98 on August 30, 2005, at 22:56:14
I have read articles that clonazepam binding to gaba recepetors is moderatly.
I take Klonopin 5mg (yes 5mg) for severe anxiety with panic syndrome.
3-4mg will almost knock me out before.
Lorazepam at 4mg wasnt that strong, i just felt laid back and calm. But it didnt help during amphetmaine withdrawl. I had to go back to clonazepam.
Clonazepam is much more mentally clouding than others, such as lorazepam. I could work well on 1-2mg fine without any disorganization. Klonopin seems to make it hard to keep up with everyhting. I dont want to do much.
Well if you know much please post something.
Posted by willyee on August 31, 2005, at 2:27:17
In reply to Is Clonazepam a high potency benzodiazepine?, posted by rjlockhart98 on August 30, 2005, at 22:56:14
Due to its very long half life,it is one of the stronger ones used.I *think* klonopin has a half life of around 12 hrs,imnot sure but compare that to say xanax and u have a med for two different purposes,klonopin for gad,xanax for panic attacks.
They all kinda share there potency,just little differeces here and there.One might opt a doc to use one or the other,but klonopin is used often because the half life being so long allows for more of an effective anxiety reliaf period,as well as cuts back on short and swift rebounds that xanax for example has.
You also have time frames for which the med takes to become active,all these factors usualy come into play and end up beinging klonopin and xanax to the forefront of use,but probuably because of these factors not because one is any *stronger* than the other.Certain people/condtions call for certain benzos riding on its specific characteristics.
Just to note,benzos are all actualy considered MINOR tranquilzers as the barbiutes and anti-psyhcotics are considered MAJOR tranqulizers.
So next time klonopin knocks u on ur ars--- just rember your simply on a MINOR tranquilzer and dont sweat it lol.
Posted by yxibow on August 31, 2005, at 5:25:50
In reply to Is Clonazepam a high potency benzodiazepine?, posted by rjlockhart98 on August 30, 2005, at 22:56:14
> I have read articles that clonazepam binding to gaba recepetors is moderatly.
>
> I take Klonopin 5mg (yes 5mg) for severe anxiety with panic syndrome.I've been up to 8mg... but I wouldn't recommend this without frequent monitoring.
> 3-4mg will almost knock me out before.
>Benzodiazepines are, not necessarily the "addictive" medications that some may label, but they do have a degree of habituation depending on the person and while some have been on Librium or Valium since they came out 45 years ago with no troubles, others continue to ramp up.
> Clonazepam is much more mentally clouding than others, such as lorazepam. I could work well on 1-2mg fine without any disorganization. Klonopin seems to make it hard to keep up with everyhting. I dont want to do much.
Each benzodiazepine has slightly different subreceptor bindings... for anxiolytic, for anticonvulsant, and for sedative-hypnotic. Temazepam, Halcion, Rohypnol, etc, are more in the sedative-hypnotic range. Ativan tends to be more in the anxiolytic range, but it also has a shorter half life and a sense of immediacy in gratification. Clonazepam probably has slightly more in the anticonvulsant range although it probably equally shares it with its anxiolytic properties and is most frequently prescribed psychiatrically because it has a long half life and is easier to withdraw from thus. This is just from my personal experience and a general nuance of the medications -- its hard to say scientifically what a particular benzodiazepine will do for which person
Personally I'm tapering from clonazepam to diazepam (Valium) to see if there is any slight difference in anxiolytic effect. They both have long half lifes but may have slightly different nuances.
As for "high potency", I would say that intravenous Versed for surgery is a pretty potent benzodiazepine (not from personal experience :). But I dont think you'd want to be driving the streets on that...
Posted by Glydin on August 31, 2005, at 9:13:50
In reply to Is Clonazepam a high potency benzodiazepine?, posted by rjlockhart98 on August 30, 2005, at 22:56:14
The half life of Klonopin is anywhere from 18-50 hours by most resources. It has been my observation most routine users dose several times a day, therefore I think there lies a potential for the actual drug level to be more than one would expect based on dose due to the overlap. I would think this would be very individual with many factors of metabolism and clearence specific to one person to another.
I believe the potency and strength of benzo's are dose and individual dependent. This seems to be borne out with the relaying of experiences in comparing - "this one snowed me, this one didn't". For alot of folks it appears to be a trial and error situation.
I get the feeling you are not satisfied with your response and I remember your doc is reluctant to RX another benzo for whatever reason. If this were the case for me, I would go in search of another doc.
Posted by yxibow on August 31, 2005, at 15:24:00
In reply to Re: Is Clonazepam a high potency benzodiazepine?, posted by Glydin on August 31, 2005, at 9:13:50
> The half life of Klonopin is anywhere from 18-50 hours by most resources. It has been my observation most routine users dose several times a day, therefore I think there lies a potential for the actual drug level to be more than one would expect based on dose due to the overlap. I would think this would be very individual with many factors of metabolism and clearence specific to one person to another.
This is true.. however "in vivo" (animal) and "in vitro" (man) studies of half life differs wildly. The typical half-life of clonazepam more averages 12-16 hours, hence twice daily dosing.
>
> I believe the potency and strength of benzo's are dose and individual dependent. This seems to be borne out with the relaying of experiences in comparing - "this one snowed me, this one didn't". For alot of folks it appears to be a trial and error situation.Definately... and some people are "fast metabolizers" of medication (I think that includes myself), and eliminination occurs earlier.
>
> I get the feeling you are not satisfied with your response and I remember your doc is reluctant to RX another benzo for whatever reason. If this were the case for me, I would go in search of another doc.I would be careful when "shopping" for doctors for C-IV medication -- one, there may be a reason why one's current doctor is hesitant (multiple drug combinations), and two, one doesn't want to look like one is seeking controlled substances. Do a little research and present a case for another benzodiazepine.
Valium is a valid alternative to Klonopin, never mind the 60s comments about "mother's little helper" -- it has a long half life and less risk for inter-dosal dependency.
More obscure ones include Quazepam exists although generally used more for sleep but all benzodiazepines are used off label these days; and the obscure ones prazepam (Centrax), Serax (oxazepam), Tranxene (clorazepate) (I had difficulties with inter-dosal use with tranxene so one might be cautious with that one).
Posted by Glydin on August 31, 2005, at 15:38:47
In reply to Re: Is Clonazepam a high potency benzodiazepine?, posted by yxibow on August 31, 2005, at 15:24:00
> I would be careful when "shopping" for doctors for C-IV medication -- one, there may be a reason why one's current doctor is hesitant (multiple drug combinations), and two, one doesn't want to look like one is seeking controlled substances. Do a little research and present a case for another benzodiazepine.
~~~I agree and my commentary was not based just on this post by this poster. I believe he has posted before of trying to make a case for a change and if I rememer correctly Matt has stated his doc's comment of "You can't be your own doctor" and dismissed further discussion of the subject. I hope I'm remembering this correctly and if not, I do apologize in advance.You are correct, there may be reasons for the doctor's advice and current plan for Matt. I am respectful of the practioner's role, but I think part of that role is to listen to patient's responses and adjust accordingly.
I just wanted to clear up why I would make this suggestion to Matt.
Posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2005, at 19:18:57
In reply to Re: Is Clonazepam a high potency benzodiazepine? » yxibow, posted by Glydin on August 31, 2005, at 15:38:47
In my experience klonopin had a dulling affect at 3mg. I always liked xanax. But after a few years all it did was make me tired. So I switched to valium l5mg a day. I thought it would make me feel relaxed like it did years ago. But it doesn't. And the funny thing is I fell asleep without any medication at all a few times. What does this mean? So if the valium doesn't do anything and either do AD's anymore does this mean I'm a fast metabolizer and it takes more of a med to work? This metabolizer thing has me confused. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Paulbwell on August 31, 2005, at 21:41:07
In reply to Is Clonazepam a high potency benzodiazepine?, posted by rjlockhart98 on August 30, 2005, at 22:56:14
> I have read articles that clonazepam binding to gaba recepetors is moderatly.
>
> I take Klonopin 5mg (yes 5mg) for severe anxiety with panic syndrome.
>
> 3-4mg will almost knock me out before.
>
> Lorazepam at 4mg wasnt that strong, i just felt laid back and calm. But it didnt help during amphetmaine withdrawl. I had to go back to clonazepam.
>
> Clonazepam is much more mentally clouding than others, such as lorazepam. I could work well on 1-2mg fine without any disorganization. Klonopin seems to make it hard to keep up with everyhting. I dont want to do much.
>
> Well if you know much please post something..5mgs Clonaz=10mgs Diazepam in Gaba binding capabilities. I was scripted Clonaz at 2-6mgs daily and hated it. Depression, dribbling,=Yuck give me another Benzo anyday, althought it's very good for panic.
Cheers
Posted by TheMagicPill on September 1, 2005, at 2:07:37
In reply to F*ck yes!!!, posted by Paulbwell on August 31, 2005, at 21:41:07
i've taken 4-5 mg per day and it didnt faze me. my pdoc said one of her clients was on 9mg/day. i guess every med affects every1 differently, but i personally think klonopin is one of the safest meds out there. the ppl who abuse it are the ones who use it recreationally.
Posted by med_empowered on September 1, 2005, at 5:52:59
In reply to Re: You should be fine, posted by TheMagicPill on September 1, 2005, at 2:07:37
Klonopin is high potency...until recently, it was mostly used for epilepsy, and as an add-on mood stabilizer in bipolar and for behavioral "issues" in some schizophrenic episodes. Anyway, the big problem I had with it was the emotional flattening...basically, at 4mgs/day, I had low-grade, drug-induced depression from the Klonopin. It sucks that Ativan didn't do much for you, since it is pretty good stuff...I like Librium myself, although it can be tough to get the "right" dose when you're doing it PRN....too little and you're still panicky, too much and I felt like a sloppy (but *HAPPY*) drunk. I've heard that Limbitrol, the Elavil+Libtrium combo, is good stuff, but that isn't terribly popular anymore, and tricyclics are kinda rough on a lot of people. As for your dosage...its good to keep all meds, including benzos, as low as you can, but you need to keep it high enough to function well. So...if you cogntive-behavioral type work, you might find yourself able to lower or eliminate the Klonopin and still function nicely. If the Klonopin is greatly impairing you right now, you should talk to your doc...you may want to lower the dose, add/substitute another anxiolytic, increase your stimulant, or...tough it out, at least short-term. Benzos are pretty nice to your body overall, so as long as you don't have any major problems (elevated liver enzymes, daytime sedation, cognitive impairment), you should be able to play with dosage w/o fear of major problems. Good luck!
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