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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 3:36:54
Why are these drugs so readily accepted at mental health forums like this when they are known to cause akathisia, tardive dykenisia, suicide, violence and other debilitating side effects? After reading and experiencing these, i'd much rather look for some other 'quick fix.'
Posted by DanielJ on March 1, 2005, at 7:22:49
In reply to SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 3:36:54
My son has schizophrenia. Without Zyprexa and Zoloft he would be institutionalized. As it stands he is back in school getting straight a's. He has no major complaints about these medications and has been taking them for 2 years. They help many people and don't cause damage if taken in correct dosage.
Posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 8:14:41
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by DanielJ on March 1, 2005, at 7:22:49
I beg to differ. Many take these drugs properly or as their physician orders and run into horrible problems beyond their control. Psychiatric drugs have proven to be a hit or miss. 50% may get the benefit, while the other 50% will end up running into a disaster. That's a pretty faulty system if you ask me. It's basically no different than experimenting on a bunch of rats. Psychiatric drug success stories are common, but psychiatric drug casualties may be even more common.
Posted by banga on March 1, 2005, at 8:28:06
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 8:14:41
I beg to differ on that. I cannot have a life if I don't take medication. Slight amounts of antipsychotics has allowed me to function again. Suicide and disability due to psychiatric illness is rampant in my family. No they are not perfect and are not without risks--psychiatrists and drug manufacturers definitely need to do a better job of warning about dangers. BUt it is not true that 50% run into disaster. If you are taking this board as an example for the % that get hit by the bad effects, you are not considering the natural selection that occurs--it is that segment of the patients who had problems that come here. Those that are fine do not feel the need to participate. So you don't hear much here from the people who have been helped and go on with their life.
But for some there are no other options. I have tried everything under the sun and only meds help me. All the non-quick fixes.
As I said, I agree that perhaps many psychiatrists are too quick in prescribing before other things are tried. People should be better informed, there is no question. But very very many people try everything else to no avail. My mother spent her life miserable and wishing for death. What kind of a life was that?
I am feeling good this morning. I would not if I had no medication. I hope/am sure that sometime in the future a better option other than medication will appear, but in the meantime Ill take the risks.
Posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 8:41:33
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by banga on March 1, 2005, at 8:28:06
And I just said that many people do end up getting the benefits such as yourself. I think you are right though. Alot of the problems come from the wrong diagnosis and over prescribing by certain ignorant doctors. If doctors would be more careful or aware then I think the problems would be lessened considerably.
Posted by Bill LL on March 1, 2005, at 8:51:11
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by banga on March 1, 2005, at 8:28:06
Neal- I would agree with Banga that 50% is too high a number to describe SSRI disasters. About 50% do not respond to a given drug, but many of those people then do respond later to a different drug or drug combination. I personally have taken SSRI's for about 10 years. I feel much much better with them than I did without them.
I'm not sure exactly what you were saying. For example, Effexor and Duloxetine are generally not classified as "SSRI's". Were you including them as well? Or were you saying that the non-SSRI drugs are more effective with less problems? Effexor has in fact been shown to be more effective than SSRI's in at least one trial.
From what I have read, scientists believe that SSRI's have prevented many more suicides than they have caused. I think that now that people are more aware of the problems with people first starting on SSRI's, that these problems will be better controlled.
In the past year, I have discovered that I do better with drugs that affect both serotonin and norepinephrine. Serotonin relieves my depression and anxiety, and NE increases my ability to concentrate (lowers ADD symptoms). Right now I am taking an SSRI (Lexapro) and a drug that affects both serotonin and NE (duloxetine). MAny people can also control both neurotransmiters by taking Strattera with an SSRI. I also did well on that combination in the past.
Posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 9:00:06
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by Bill LL on March 1, 2005, at 8:51:11
I have read thousands of SSRI horror stories on the web and have also seen petitions signed by thousands of people that speak against some of the drugs like paxil and effexor. While that may not bring the percentage range up to 50%, we are talking about thousands of people testifying against these drugs. That means that there are several other thousands who are probably experiencing problems and not speaking about them.
There are millions of people on these drugs and im sure several million people get a benefit. However, when you have thousands of people who become victims to the bad side effects, suicide, homicide etc..you would have to agree that those are some scary figures. That just proves that this is all hit and miss and that this is one big experiment.
Those who get the benefit will speak for the drugs. Those who get the horrible reaction will speak against it. That's just how it goes. I was one who got a very bad reaction from paxil that almost killed me, so you won't ever see me advocating a drug that nearly drove me to the grave.
Posted by banga on March 1, 2005, at 9:03:01
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 8:41:33
I think allowing general practitioners prescribe psychotropics was a mistake. Though I am sure many are quite knowledgeable and careful, they dont have the time to specialize. Perhaps once a patient has been on a med long enough, they can take over the regular check-ins so as to free up psychiatrist's time to see more complex, urgent cases.
I keep thinking of an intern I met at my doctors, who was extremely interested in my meds, said he wanted to become a psychiatrist. He said "it's so simple--you have to know three neurotransmitters and that's it." I could barely contain myself. Maybe it was good that I was not yet feeling well and was not up to the task of "correcting" him.
Aside from the obvious interest of drug manufacturers to downply side effects and withdrawal, I dont quite understand why pdocs do not more commonly present patients with an honest risk-vs-benefit discussion of taking medication.
Posted by banga on March 1, 2005, at 9:07:18
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 9:00:06
Dont forget also all those who turn to alcohol and drugs for relief, and the damage they do our society. That was the only thing that helped my depression outside of meds. Dont have to tell you where that got me. Amazing I lived.
Posted by ed_uk on March 1, 2005, at 9:23:06
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by banga on March 1, 2005, at 9:03:01
>I dont quite understand why pdocs do not more commonly present patients with an honest risk-vs-benefit discussion of taking medication.
None of the pdocs I've met have been at all well informed of the risks. They didn't even know that Paxil can cause drowsiness for god's sake!! They must get all their info from the manufacturers!
Ed.
Posted by banga on March 1, 2005, at 9:32:06
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics » banga, posted by ed_uk on March 1, 2005, at 9:23:06
LOL, pretty sad--the field of medicine, the king of the scientific method and critical thinking.... and their own disciples voluntarily being spoon-fed info from clearly biased sources.....
Posted by SLS on March 1, 2005, at 10:09:28
In reply to SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 3:36:54
Hi.
> Why are these drugs so readily accepted at mental health forums like this
Because they work.
> when they are known to cause akathisia, tardive dykenisia,
Yes they are. However, the occurence of these sequalae are very small with the new generation of atypical neuroleptics. I don't have any statistics handy for what the total rate of EPS is with Zyprexa or Seroquel, but it might be informative for someone to post it. At least that would help gain some appropriate perspective. I performed quite a bit of research into this matter and spent quite a bit of time deliberating the matter before coming to the conclusion that for me, the benefits by far outweigh the risks for taking these drugs.
> suicide, violence
Are we still talking about the APs here? Rates of occurence?
> and other debilitating side effects?
Which in particular are you referring to that you haven't already stated above? Which drugs in particular?
> After reading and experiencing these, i'd much rather look for some other 'quick fix.'
"some other 'quick fix'"
I find this term to be contrary to the empirical observations of the clinical courses of stable improvements that these drugs produce. They are effective both acutely and prophylactically.
I think I will continue to indulge in my quick fix. To be fixed quickly is the goal, isn't it?
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 2, 2005, at 11:22:55
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 8:14:41
> It's basically no different than experimenting on a bunch of rats.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't exaggerate.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Bill LL on March 2, 2005, at 11:48:25
In reply to Re: SSRI's and anti psychotics, posted by NealMcCoy on March 1, 2005, at 9:00:06
Neal- What other drugs besides Paxil did you try? And at what dose? Also, what are your main symptoms?
This is the end of the thread.
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