![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on December 17, 2004, at 21:05:26
This may be completely wrong, but I just had a strong insight as to why whenever I take an SSRI I have greatly increased suicidal thinking (although it helps my depression)
I know serotonin is strongly linked to insight, and objective thinking. Whenever I initiate an SSRI, I can see my whole life. I can see whats wrong with it so clearly. I can see my my future, and clearly precieve how my dreams are impossable to achieve. Whenever I take an SSRI, it pushes me into the future, and forces me to think about the future. If I were working at a regualar job this might not be bad, but I am at a stage where I don't know my future. Its true that the drugs take your mind off of your present problems, but it seems that it just projects me into future problems.
Does anyone else find that AD medication just shifts your worrying from one thing to another ??
Linkadge
Posted by djmmm on December 17, 2004, at 21:25:34
In reply to I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 17, 2004, at 21:05:26
> This may be completely wrong, but I just had a strong insight as to why whenever I take an SSRI I have greatly increased suicidal thinking (although it helps my depression)
>
> I know serotonin is strongly linked to insight, and objective thinking. Whenever I initiate an SSRI, I can see my whole life. I can see whats wrong with it so clearly. I can see my my future, and clearly precieve how my dreams are impossable to achieve. Whenever I take an SSRI, it pushes me into the future, and forces me to think about the future. If I were working at a regualar job this might not be bad, but I am at a stage where I don't know my future. Its true that the drugs take your mind off of your present problems, but it seems that it just projects me into future problems.
>
> Does anyone else find that AD medication just shifts your worrying from one thing to another ??
>
>
>
> LinkadgeBased on the monoamine theory of depression, I believe the current theory behind the link between SSRIs and suicide is drug induced akathisia (or agitation), and the initial drop of serotonin levels when the brain is exposed to SSRIs
Posted by MM on December 18, 2004, at 4:26:05
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by djmmm on December 17, 2004, at 21:25:34
>Does anyone else find that AD medication just shifts your worrying from one thing to another ??
Definitely.
Posted by linkadge on December 18, 2004, at 9:28:58
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by MM on December 18, 2004, at 4:26:05
If I am correct, akathesia and insight might go hand in hand. The akathesia is mediated via activation of the 2a receptors. This is also what is involved in the initial anxiety too.
LSD works via activation of the 2a receptors. People notice that the drugs let them see their future and past extrodinarily clearly.
But the thing is that, even when the drugs reach their full benifit for me, I am always more impulsivly suicidal than when I started them. They do help my depression, but I could commit suicide at the drop of a needle. It doesn't make much sence.
Linkadge
Posted by MM on December 18, 2004, at 15:11:07
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 18, 2004, at 9:28:58
I don't have much insight here, but I just wanted to say that I've always said that I feel like I'm on acid/LSD a little when I'm on SSRI's (and I didn't like acid).
Posted by linkadge on December 18, 2004, at 15:41:19
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality » linkadge, posted by MM on December 18, 2004, at 15:11:07
I think I have an idea what LSD feels like. Citalopram gives me the feeling that nothing is real, like nothing really exists by itself, but instead only in context to something else.
I've totally lost my religion since starting it.
Linakdge
Posted by jerrympls on December 18, 2004, at 23:23:20
In reply to I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 17, 2004, at 21:05:26
> This may be completely wrong, but I just had a strong insight as to why whenever I take an SSRI I have greatly increased suicidal thinking (although it helps my depression)
>
> I know serotonin is strongly linked to insight, and objective thinking. Whenever I initiate an SSRI, I can see my whole life. I can see whats wrong with it so clearly. I can see my my future, and clearly precieve how my dreams are impossable to achieve. Whenever I take an SSRI, it pushes me into the future, and forces me to think about the future. If I were working at a regualar job this might not be bad, but I am at a stage where I don't know my future. Its true that the drugs take your mind off of your present problems, but it seems that it just projects me into future problems.
>
> Does anyone else find that AD medication just shifts your worrying from one thing to another ??
>
>
>
> Linkadgeweird - I could have written the same post.
Posted by Wildman on December 19, 2004, at 12:29:10
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality » linkadge, posted by MM on December 18, 2004, at 15:11:07
I have also noticed a similar sensation (SSRI (Lexapro in my case) and LSD). It's most noticable when increasing the dosage.
This summer, I tapered off of Lexapro and then restarted it. During the ramp-up, I would get a verrry trippy feeling in the mornings after taking the Lex. I would compare that feeling to that first hour after taking LSD (I've probably done LSD 60-70 times). Just a very hightened sense of awareness, saturated colors, mildly hypomanic.
I loved LSD back in the day (college in the mid-80s). I was very depressed when I was in college and drank heavily and smoked a ton of pot. LSD was the only thing that would give me some temporary relief from the depression - not during the trip, but the three or four days afterward when I would feel so mentally "clean". I used to call LSD "mental floss".
Wildman
Posted by Le Grande Fromage on December 19, 2004, at 12:55:44
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by Wildman on December 19, 2004, at 12:29:10
I have the same experience of increased suicidality. It could be that, before taking antidepressants, you still have an "option", a backdoor, if you are unable to cope, and thus some level of control. Once you're on the pills, that's it, you've played your last card. And then the side-effects kick in, you're not feeling any better and you've used your supposed trump card. Once you realise your latest set of pills isn't going to rescue you, you're faced with gloomy reality again - and the side-effects.
Posted by linkadge on December 19, 2004, at 13:08:23
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by Le Grande Fromage on December 19, 2004, at 12:55:44
"Once you realise your latest set of pills isn't going to rescue you, you're faced with gloomy reality again - and the side-effects. "
Thats EXACTLY how I feel. When I'm off meds, I can at least say, "if things get bad, there's always meds" but the fact is that even on meds I still had the same problems I did off the meds.
And I feel litte different about my problems.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on December 19, 2004, at 13:45:48
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2004, at 13:08:23
>"Once you realise your latest set of pills isn't going to rescue you, you're faced with gloomy reality again - and the side-effects. "
That certainly applies to anxiolytics as well as ADs!
Unlike Link, I've always found that SSRIs make me think LESS about the future, in fact, they make me think less about most things.
Ed.
Posted by MM on December 19, 2004, at 15:11:41
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by ed_uk on December 19, 2004, at 13:45:48
"Unlike Link, I've always found that SSRIs make me think LESS about the future, in fact, they make me think less about most things."
Same here, Ed. They make me apathetic and don't do much for depression for me. It's just a bunch of side effects in my case without the positive part (they help my anxiety a tiny bit, probably because of the apathy). It seems like my pdoc doesn't want to hear that I don't like them though, as he keeps trying them.
Another similarity between LSD and SSRI's (Lexapro this time) is that my natural ability to tell time is affected. It seems like time passes faster or I just estimate it wrong.
MM
Posted by ed_uk on December 19, 2004, at 15:50:22
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by MM on December 19, 2004, at 15:11:41
Hi,
I was suicidal on SSRIs when I was depressed. They helped my anxiety more than my depression. I just thought.. 'so who cares if I die'. The SSRI-induced 'who cares' attitude can be dangerous. SSRIs reduce my motivation to do anything but I continue to take them to reduce the pain of my anxiety and OCD.
Ed.
Posted by linkadge on December 19, 2004, at 18:21:12
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by ed_uk on December 19, 2004, at 15:50:22
Thats exactly it. Killing myself right now would be "no big deal".
Linkadge
Posted by chemicalxkisses on December 19, 2004, at 18:50:07
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2004, at 18:21:12
hmm, interesting...my theory is that when you're deeply depressed, you don't have the energy it takes to calmly plan and premeditate your own death; at least, in my experience, i was too lethargic and preferred to sleep through everything. then when you start meds, they work just enough for a bit that you regain some of that energy, but you're still pretty depressed, and you now have the cognition to carry out suicidal impulses. i don't know, tho.
Posted by linkadge on December 19, 2004, at 19:56:24
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by chemicalxkisses on December 19, 2004, at 18:50:07
For me, low energy was not a symptom of my depression. When I'm depressed, I pace around the room frantically, get little sleep, bite my nails till they bleed, and weep bitterly.
I have alwyas had energy to get through the day, but am more ridden with panic, anxiety, fear, and hopelessness.
Even when depressed, I would only think of suicide a few times a week. When I am on AD medication, I think about suicide several times a day for a few minautes.
My mood has improved, and so has my anxiety, apetite, sleep and hopefullness. But the slightest thing happens and "I want out"
Linkadge
Posted by MM on December 19, 2004, at 20:18:26
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2004, at 19:56:24
When I was on Paxil, for the longest time I would think about suicide constantly. It was those intrusive/ruminating thoughts. I had never had that before. I had thought about suicide, and if I got really stressed, I would be upset and crying and want to do it, have the impulse. But, when I was on that medication (when I wasn't on a "mood stabilizer" and a benzo with it) it became a much less emotional thing for me (apathy) and I thought about it several times a day, and HOW I would do it, and actually picturing myself after I had done it, who I would give my stuff to, etc. Before I was on AD's I was sleeping all the time and was in some odd depressed state, but after the AD's I was totally apathetic to the point of scaring myself. It was different, but not better I don't think.
Posted by SLS on December 20, 2004, at 7:22:29
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2004, at 19:56:24
> For me, low energy was not a symptom of my depression. When I'm depressed, I pace around the room frantically, get little sleep, bite my nails till they bleed, and weep bitterly.
>
> I have alwyas had energy to get through the day, but am more ridden with panic, anxiety, fear, and hopelessness.
>
> Even when depressed, I would only think of suicide a few times a week. When I am on AD medication, I think about suicide several times a day for a few minautes.
>
> My mood has improved, and so has my anxiety, apetite, sleep and hopefullness. But the slightest thing happens and "I want out"
>
>
> Linkadge
Linkadge, I understand that sometimes psychotropics can induce a "paradoxical" suicidal state for multiple reasons, but I think you might consider that the content of your thoughts and their psychodynamics might need addressing with psychotherapeutic counselling. That's what it sounds like to me. It couldn't hurt. What are your thoughts on this? I don't mean to be insulting - just helpful.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 20, 2004, at 7:24:43
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by ed_uk on December 19, 2004, at 15:50:22
> Hi,
>
> I was suicidal on SSRIs when I was depressed. They helped my anxiety more than my depression. I just thought.. 'so who cares if I die'. The SSRI-induced 'who cares' attitude can be dangerous. SSRIs reduce my motivation to do anything but I continue to take them to reduce the pain of my anxiety and OCD.What about adding Adderall as an antidote to the apathy?
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on December 20, 2004, at 9:55:31
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by SLS on December 20, 2004, at 7:24:43
I am not adverse to therapy, as I have been in it on and off for the past 3 years.
Anyhow, I just get to feeling: "Life is difficult, it's not going to get a whole lot better, you'd be dumb not to do it!!"
I think the SSRI's have liberated my thinking in some ways. Before AD's, the thought of suicide was dirty, and more importatly I felt that "I didn't have the *right* to kill myself". Its almost like I can think of suicide for the first time without thoughts of burning in hell for eternity.
If I could push a little red button, and dissapear, I would push that button like rats push a lever for cocaine.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on December 20, 2004, at 13:45:16
In reply to Re: I know why SSRIs can increase suicidiality, posted by linkadge on December 20, 2004, at 9:55:31
> I think the SSRI's have liberated my thinking in some ways.This sounds about right. I can understand this. It might take awhile to harness these evolving changes (improvements) in cognition. It will take some work and discipline as you begin to process new perspectives. It is important to accept these thoughts as being transient. They will become less and less prominent as you continue to process your thoughts within your new intellectual and emotional mileu.
You MUST NOT act on impulse, regardless of how intense these thoughts and feelings are. You have plenty of time to make decisions. Please give yourself the time to process these new thoughts and feelings. You will turn out just fine.
- Scott
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.